Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 16:26:26 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 12 #467 - 11 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2000 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: internal korean vs chinese (Benjamin Nall) 2. Pain (Bob Banham) 3. Jere's Observation to Michael (Bruce Sims) 4. Re: from Gambia (Christopher Spiller) 5. Headaches for the Future (Gordon) 6. Personal Message From Taekwondo Athlete (ChunjiDo@aol.com) 7. RE: Headaches for the Future (michael tomlinson) 8. Re: Headaches for the Future (Ray) 9. Headaches for the Future (Gordon) 10. Pain in training (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 11. RE: Pain in training (Rick Clark) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 08:52:52 -0500 (EST) From: "Benjamin Nall" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: internal korean vs chinese Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ah, racism in the martial arts community as well? <> Actually, all of the above is wrong, is it not? Its pretty well established that all martial arts, especially internal styles, originated in India... BongSoo --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Bob Banham" To: Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 14:39:49 -0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] Pain Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In my experience, a little pain of an increasing intensity is usually enough to get their attention. However, if the pain level is too high, I have known it to have the opposite effect. In other words, if a person considers they have little chance of surviving the encounter (ie the pain level is too high for them to think analytically) they may throw caution to the wind to escape, even if it means breaking themselves. Bob --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 08:02:28 -0800 (PST) From: Bruce Sims To: Ray Terry Subject: [The_Dojang] Jere's Observation to Michael Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net ".....But we live in a quick fix, fast food society, why bother spending decades learning the real art when you can learn the quick 12-step self defense program in only 2 weeks for $9.99, and this weeks special includes a free set of ginsu knives!!! :)...." You are right on the money, Jere, but I will be damned if I know what to do about it. I get these magazines all the time from MA and John Graden talking about how to run a commercially successful school but recently I visited a website that had pictures of the enrolled students and all but the last row of about 10 students were kids. When I look at adult enrollment its usually about 7 to ten adults. I get the impression that most of what these folks want is not to learn an art but just to pick-up on a handful of tricks so that they feel more secure out in the world. What really gripes me is that there are folks who are constantly trimming the Hapkido arts down to try to entice such consumers into their schools. The final position of the products of these schools then want to go out into the World and represent themselves as being identical to the folks who spend their lives training and studying. My head hurts. Best Wishes, Bruce --------------------------------- Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 08:05:33 -0800 (PST) From: Christopher Spiller To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: from Gambia Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net A couple of interesting little "facts" I was unaware of before: >>On 11 April 1955, the term "Taesoodo" (the art of China hand) was coined and accepted at a meeting of Kwan masters.<< and >>Chung do kwan later affiliated with ITF, which has its headquarters in Canada. General Choi was (he died some few odd years ago) the Head of ITF.<< I'm sure Won Kuk Lee, Uhm Kyu Woon and (especially) Sun Duk Son would be interested in hearing this. Of course, if the Chung DO Kwan *did* affiliate with the ITF, the following statement is a bit difficult to understand: >>Thus, it is easy to appreciate the fact that Chung do kwan is not tae kwon do. What is Chung do kwan? Stay tuned….<< The piece reminds me of a few articles that ran in "Taekwon-Do Times" some years ago about the history of the various Kwans. Not great in the fact department. Taekwon, Chris __________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Gordon" To: Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 12:06:26 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Headaches for the Future Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce wrote about Jere's Observation to Michael:".....But we live in a quick fix, fast food society, free set of ginsu knives!!! :)...." You are right on the money, Jere, but I will be damned if I know what to do about it. When I look at adult enrollment its usually about 7 to ten adults. just to pick-up on a handful of tricks then want to go out into the World and represent themselves as being identical to the folks who spend their lives training and studying. My head hurts. Best Wishes, Bruce Then, they open their McDojang and teach the "watered down" version to their students and make loads of money. Then, their students take their black belt and do the same and so on and so on. not knowing any better. "We profess what we know to be true until we learn differently." That, to me, is why this forum and others like it are SO important and why we owe our loyalty, respect and diligence to those masters and their kwans who pass down all we can absorb. Taking two asprin, Gordon Okerstrom --__--__-- Message: 6 From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 13:22:24 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Personal Message From Taekwondo Athlete Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net hi folks, this is one of the kids we sponsor. we've put in what we can for him, but we're pretty much tapped out for the year for donations, etcetera. he's needing a little more help if anyone can provide any assistance. take care, melinda Chajonshim Martial Arts Academy _www.cjmaa.com_ (http://www.cjmaa.com/) 1.573.673.2769 Chajonshim Martial Arts Supply _www.cjmas.com_ (http://www.cjmas.com/) 1.877.847.4072 letter follows: Hello, My name is Brian Archield. I am 21 years old and I am a taekwondo competitor in Tampa, Florida. I also attend school full time while working. I am an athlete trying to win a spot on the 2008 Olympic team to China. In my quest, I have encountered all kinds of bumps along the road yet, enjoyed success as well. This past year, I competed at USA Taekwondo Nationals, AAU Taekwondo Nationals, AAU Team Trials for the National Team, and won numerous other tournaments. I have only been competing seriously for two years and I feel my potential has not even been touched. I soon hope to reach my goal with some assistance and with the training I need. This December, I registered to attend a camp with Elite Taekwondo Center. If you don’t know who they are, they are home to the Olympic Gold Medalist Steven Lopez and his brother and sister Mark and Diana Lopez who this past year won World Championship Gold with their brother Steven. They are the best Olympic Taekwondo training center in the world. I was looking so forward to this camp, that I saved up and all my money including my school money and monies earned from other jobs. With the next school semester approaching, I absolutely forgot that I had to pay for school and other medicals bills for competitions early in the year that I had not paid. To make a long story short, when I paid my deposit for tuition for school and my medical bills, I was left with $45 dollars in my bank account and that is no longer enough to pay for my trip. Not to mention I had to ask for a refund back from the camp to pay my bills. The trip itself is about $600. Additional costs are about $280 for the plane ticket, $140 for car rental to get around Houston, Texas, and then another $150 for the hotel. I work but its only enough for me to pay the bills I already have. I am not a charity case, nor a Katrina victim who could use the money way more than me. To be honest, I am just an athlete chasing a dream. I will do anything to chase that dream. So I am looking for support... I am looking for 60 people donate $10 a piece or as much as they can for my trip. This trip means the world to me, and if I can go, it would possibly give me a chance to join the Elite Taekwondo Team and move to Houston to chase my dream. If anyone could please find it in their heart to help me, I would truly appreciate it. I have a coordinator, Ms. Melinda Kidder and she knows a lot about me. If you think this is a scam you can run my name through Google, I will give you my social security number or whatever you need. The catch is...The camp is December 9th; I have till December 6th to get the money together. So this is a big stretch with me. But I believe if the Lord wants me to go on this trip and have this opportunity, people will help me with this. So if you can please help me, please email my coordinator Ms. Melinda Kidder at _chajonshim@aol.com_ (mailto:chajonshim@aol.com) . She will take all help or donations you will be able to offer me. Also, if you donate money and I am not able to go on the trip, I promise you, all your money will be given back to you. Please I beg of your assistance because this means the world to me and my development...Thank you for your time... Sincerely Brian Archield _Howmanyukno@aol.com_ (mailto:Howmanyukno@aol.com) --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Headaches for the Future Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 18:57:27 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net That, to me, is why this forum and others like it are SO important and why we owe our loyalty, respect and diligence to those masters and their kwans who pass down all we can absorb. >>> Well said Gordon..it is thoughts like these that keep me riding that friggin exercise bike and lifting weights to get my knee back in shape after my surgery....I can't quit.... Michael Tomlinson --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Headaches for the Future To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 12:44:22 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Then, they open their McDojang and teach the "watered down" version to their > students and make loads of money. Then, their students take their black > belt and do the same and so on and so on. not knowing any better. "We > profess what we know to be true until we learn differently." > > That, to me, is why this forum and others like it are SO important and why > we owe our loyalty, respect and diligence to those masters and their kwans > who pass down all we can absorb. I've always felt it important to look up to our instructors and to honor them, but to also strive to surpass them. This view may threaten some, but if we don't take things to the next level then what future is there for the martial arts. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Gordon" To: Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 15:17:47 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Headaches for the Future Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Thus falls the other shoe. Hoo-hah! Well said Master Terry! May we all take up the gauntlet! Hapki! Gordon Okerstrom --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: "the_dojang" Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 17:25:21 -0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] Pain in training Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net IMHO Pain is a part of training. If you don't want to endure the pain take up walking at the mall. I don't mean to sound negative but this topic is one reason so many schools today are week. I say week meaning they have no idea about real self-defense or real comat, they just pay their money and participate in drills and get belts and at the end of their journey they can fight out of a wet paper sack. Pain should be monitored by the student, and the instructor so as not to create injuries, however if you are training hard you will experiance injuries, you will experiance pain, and you will learn to except pain. The problem is that to many schools are taught by un qualified instructors. They get a Black Belt (Beginning Level) and believe they are ready to teach a school. New students will experiance join pain and muscle soreness. As they begin to spar they should experiance the pain of contact both from blocking, and not blocking. As they learn Ho Sin Sool they should begin slow as to not create injuries but they should both apply pressure and recieve pressure aka pain. As they move up in rank and experiance, they should gain control and be able to apply and recieve at a faster rate. Those on the digest that understand what I am saying will agree that you learn to feel join tension in different people. You can adjust your grip to compensate so you don't hurt your partner or you can adjust or not compensate and break the join. This comes from experiance, however you should always take the join to the point your partner feels the pressure or pain. Food for thought-- I train in Soo Bahk Do and we practice Ho Sin Sool quite often. The methods of stand up Ho Sin Sool practiced most often can work with an unsuspecting opponate on the street to break free of a grip and counter attack. It may even allow you to gain control, but how often do you see Ho Sin Sool demonstrated in the UFC (as you practice it). I will answer for you, you don't. I also practice Jujitsu for this reason. Jujitsu is to me an expansion of my understanding of Ho Sin Sool. You have to be honest with yourself. If I was to fight for my life today could I survive using the training I practice now. If you train for recreation, with your family that is great. I can respect that, just be careful not to get a false since of security. If you thing you are training realisticly test yourself realisticly. This does not mean you have to fight to the death, or knock each other out. Just have someone big grab you and tell them not to let you go unless you force it to happen. Put somebody on top of you and tell them not to let you up unless you force it to happen. Put on the pads and tell someone to attack with out reguard for your safty. This will be a humbling experiance. The problem is most would rather brag about their ability rather than build it up realisticly. JCGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 19:44:14 -0500 From: "Rick Clark" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Pain in training To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I have been reading this thread off and on and I have not run across the point I would like to make. It seems to me that the reason many people come to the martial arts - any martial art - is primarily for self defense. Yes there are other reasons but I believe even those that cross our door may say something other than self-defense I would be willing to wager that even in those peoples minds self-defense is a large part of what they want. OK - to the point - what do people want to defend against? Pain - sooooooooooo what a white belt does not want is pain. Yet, many times that is what we give them. Perhaps this is one of the reasons why people drop out early in the game? Anyway, I do believe pain does have a place in training but it should be incremental. White belts should experience very little discomfort, take it easy on them. Let them get their foot in the water, then increase the level of discomfort in the techniques a bit as they progress in rank. I believe this can be an important lesson for someone wanting to learn self-defense - you can experience pain and still continue to resist. This may be a very important lesson for someone who is afraid of getting hurt. Rick Clark "Always forgive your enemies - nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde www.ao-denkou-kai.org --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest