Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 17:09:52 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 12 #469 - 11 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2000 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Surpassing the teacher (Rudy Timmerman) 2. India??? (john.a.mcintosh@bt.com) 3. RE: Pain in training (michael tomlinson) 4. RE: Goofy requests (michael tomlinson) 5. RE: Headaches for the Future (J R Hilland) 6. Re: Pain in training (J R Hilland) 7. RE: Pain in training (J R Hilland) 8. Surviving (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 9. RE: India??? (PETER.MCDONALDSMITH@london-fire.gov.uk) 10. Re: Pain (Ray) 11. RE: Pain (Rick Clark) --__--__-- Message: 1 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Rudy Timmerman Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 02:18:09 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Surpassing the teacher Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ray writes: > I've always felt it important to look up to our instructors and to > honor > them, but to also strive to surpass them. This view may threaten > some, > but if we don't take things to the next level then what future is > there > for the martial arts. Hello Ray: It has ALWAYS been my goal to have my students get better than their Instructor. I don't see it as a threat... I see it as a compliment. Rudy --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 10:07:34 -0000 From: To: Subject: [The_Dojang] India??? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net BongSoo wrote: "Actually, all of the above is wrong, is it not? Its pretty well established that all martial arts, especially internal styles, originated in India..." I would have to question this statement, all martial arts did not originate in India. Perhaps India had a massive influence on Asian martial arts, but surely wherever people live they will have a fighting tradition e.g. Pancration, Glima to name two European traditions. Asserting that India is the fountain of martial arts does a disservice to all those practitioners of martial arts that came before and does no favours to those coming after. I have heard people claiming that because Alexander the Great took Pancration practitioners with him on his conquest of a large part of the world that all Asian martial arts originated in the West. Just a few words more, ancient Egyptian(?) wall decorations show what appears to be wrestling techniques and in the Epic of Gilgamesh the following quote appears: "Gilgamesh bent his knees, with his other foot on the ground, his anger abated and he turned his chest away." This has been cited by Dr. Clive Layton in one of his works, I think it was "Mysteries of the Martial Arts", as being a description of a Judo-like throw with mental aspects added (relaxation/calm mind - his anger abated). I know I said just a few words more but apparently I don't know when to stop, so perhaps this would a good time. Pax John --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Pain in training Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 12:43:38 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I always tell my students that everyday they just need to be better than themself yesterday. Think about it, in an encounter, even a basketball player, a soccer player, or any other athlete has a better chance of survival than an average person just because he/she is in better shape to fight back or to run away. A Martial Artist should at least be able to do the same thing. And if we practice hard, we can do a lot more.>>> That is a very good point....no matter what you know,, if you are out of breath in the first 20 seconds of any physical activity then you are fish bait... Michael Tomlinson --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Goofy requests Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 12:46:28 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Wow,,, it never ceases to amaze me how the word "Hapkido", means more than the actual training to some people... Michael Tomlinson >From: "J.R. West" >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >To: "Dojang Digest" >Subject: [The_Dojang] Goofy requests >Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 21:00:47 -0600 > >Having a website as common as hapkido.com, I often get hit with bizarre >requests, but I received one last night that I just HAVE to share. I was >asked by a man in South Africa if I could help him start a commercial >Hapkido school since there were none in his country. The instructors were >going to be a TKD practitioner and a Ju Jitsu practitioner. This was >thought to be OK since everyone knows that all hapkido consists of is TKD >kicks, blocks and strikes, mixed in with some Ju Jitsu grappling. He >wanted >me to give him the names of some Korean orgainzations that they could get >certified through, and would I come and teach a couple of seminars to get >them started. I have not seen an answer, and after my rather "to the >point" >reply, I don't imagine I will, The sad part of all this is that there are >folks out there that would be happy to go to Africa for free and sign some >papers saying that these guys are legitimate. I wonder if one of their >organiztions would give me rank in Ju Jitsu based on my Hapkido experience, >or if I learned a set of forms perhaps they would issue me TKD rank.....I >sure hope NOT!.......JRW >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2000 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "J R Hilland" To: Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 11:55:22 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Headaches for the Future Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <<>> Authentication by propagation. And it is getting worse! In Korea, there are over 1/2 a dozen organizations that will give you a new dan rank each time you take a weekend seminar. Many will take this rank and go back to their country, start their own organization and promote this watered down version. It is happening everywhere. It still does not make it hapkido, but you will never convince them of that, because they have the paper! A friend who taught English in Seoul, attended one and rejected the rank. He actually thought hapkido was a joke until he returned to America and studied the art completely. After 5 years of hard work he then obtained his first gup. Yes, there are legitimate organizations in Korea, America, etc., but it appears they are few and far between and like in the USA, do not get the media attention as true representatives of the art. <<>> That just about sums up the current trend... Jere R. Hilland www.hapkidoselfdefense.com --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "J R Hilland" To: Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 11:56:13 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Pain in training Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I am not sure how your self defense training and your definition of self defense fits into this discussion of hapkido techniques, but the self defense techniques in hapkido are applicable to all matters of self defense, not just as a balance break or a breakaway. However most technique in hapkido are not allowed in the 'rules' of these 'no rules' competitions. Jere R. Hilland www.hapkidoselfdefense.com <<> --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "J R Hilland" To: Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 11:57:00 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Pain in training Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Rick: In hapkido, it takes many years under a qualified teacher to gain the level of control needed in one's technique regarding our discussion of pain in hapkido. Not something a new student is going to be able to learn. But you are correct in that the goal of teaching a new student is simply to put a smile on their face during class and get them to say this is great stuff! Jere R. Hilland www.hapkidoselfdefense.com --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: "the_dojang" Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 14:30:46 -0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] Surviving Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Luc Nguyen When I asked the question could you survive an attack using the trainining you have today. I think you missed my point. What I was asking was for everyone to be honest about there training. Many people today train at a "Club" or "Recreational" school that offers classes, however they fail to teach realisticly. This creates a false since of security that some of the students don't even realize they have. The reality is that there are many practitioners that make black belt today in schools. That if attacked would either forget the training they have a begin to do what ever comes natural to them, or they would try some fancy technique the learned and get the crap kicked out of them or possibly die. My question was to everyone. Be honest with yourself about where you are in your training. JC Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com --__--__-- Message: 9 Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] India??? Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 21:15:26 -0000 From: To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I meant Capoeira. hit the spell button when I shouldn't have. -----Original Message----- From: john.a.mcintosh@bt.com [mailto:john.a.mcintosh@bt.com] Sent: 30 November 2005 10:08 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] India??? BongSoo wrote: "Actually, all of the above is wrong, is it not? Its pretty well established that all martial arts, especially internal styles, originated in India..." I would have to question this statement, all martial arts did not originate in India. Perhaps India had a massive influence on Asian martial arts, but surely wherever people live they will have a fighting tradition e.g. Pancration, Glima to name two European traditions. Asserting that India is the fountain of martial arts does a disservice to all those practitioners of martial arts that came before and does no favours to those coming after. I have heard people claiming that because Alexander the Great took Pancration practitioners with him on his conquest of a large part of the world that all Asian martial arts originated in the West. Just a few words more, ancient Egyptian(?) wall decorations show what appears to be wrestling techniques and in the Epic of Gilgamesh the following quote appears: "Gilgamesh bent his knees, with his other foot on the ground, his anger abated and he turned his chest away." This has been cited by Dr. Clive Layton in one of his works, I think it was "Mysteries of the Martial Arts", as being a description of a Judo-like throw with mental aspects added (relaxation/calm mind - his anger abated). I know I said just a few words more but apparently I don't know when to stop, so perhaps this would a good time. Pax John _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2000 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang **************************************************************************** SMOKE ALARMS SAVE LIVES Go to London Fire at www.london-fire.gov.uk/firesafety This email is confidential to the addressee only. If you do not believe that you are the intended addressee, do not use, pass on or copy it in any way. If you have received it in error, please delete it immediately and telephone the supplied number, reversing the charges if necessary. --__--__-- Message: 10 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Pain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 16:16:56 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > In my experience, a little pain of an increasing intensity is usually enough > to get their attention. However, if the pain level is too high, I have known > it to have the opposite effect. In other words, if a person considers they > have little chance of surviving the encounter (ie the pain level is too high > for them to think analytically) they may throw caution to the wind to escape, > even if it means breaking themselves. Agreed... Too much pain in a highly stressful situation will likely cause your partner (attacker) to experience an adrenaline dump. Even when you think you have control of the person, that can very quickly change when they experience the superhuman strength they feel that is associated with 'the dump'. As Gm Ji terms it, the Super Hormone from which all strength and power flows. Best to give them just a taste of the extreme pain and then back off a bit. As they struggle more, another little taste of the good stuff (pain). But if you just crank it on and leave it on they will likely not even feel it as you break their wrist, arm, etc... And they will never hear a word or shouted command you try to give them once auditory exclusion kicks in from this dump of the Super Hormone. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 20:32:59 -0500 From: "Rick Clark" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Pain To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net One thing about pain compliance - the longer you hold a joint lock the more a person can withstand the pain. So if you find yourself in a situation where you must maintain pain control over an individual you need to let up on the pain and then re-apply the technique. If you keep continuous pressure on a joint a person will learn to accept the pain and you will be required to increase the amount of pressure you apply to the technique. This can lead you to the point where you will apply more pressure than you have intended and will cause damage that was unintentional. Rick Clark "Always forgive your enemies - nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde www.ao-denkou-kai.org >-----Original Message----- >From: Ray [mailto:rterry@idiom.com] >Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2005 7:17 PM >To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Pain > > >> In my experience, a little pain of an increasing intensity >is usually >> enough to get their attention. However, if the pain level is >too high, >> I have known it to have the opposite effect. In other words, if a >> person considers they have little chance of surviving the encounter >> (ie the pain level is too high for them to think analytically) they >> may throw caution to the wind to escape, even if it means breaking >> themselves. > >Agreed... > >Too much pain in a highly stressful situation will likely cause your >partner (attacker) to experience an adrenaline dump. Even when you >think you have control of the person, that can very quickly change >when they experience the superhuman strength they feel that is >associated >with 'the dump'. As Gm Ji terms it, the Super Hormone from >which all strength and power flows. > >Best to give them just a taste of the extreme pain and then >back off a bit. As they struggle more, another little taste of >the good stuff (pain). But if you just crank it on and leave >it on they will likely not even feel it >as you break their wrist, arm, etc... And they will never >hear a word or shouted command you try to give them once >auditory exclusion kicks in from >this dump of the Super Hormone. > >Ray Terry >rterry@idiom.com _______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2000 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest