Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2005 03:01:13 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 12 #471 - 6 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2000 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Watered down and Surpassing the teacher (Erik Kluzek) 2. RE: India (J R Hilland) 3. Re: Bruisers vs. weenies.... (Erik Kluzek) 4. Re: India (Benjamin Nall) 5. Surpassing the teacher (Robert Martin) 6. Brick break (Tim) --__--__-- Message: 1 Cc: David Curtis , Sandy Johnson , Mark Moore , Mort Heathman , Outi , Susan Montgomery-Hodge , Sherrel Price , Bill Hodge , Pablo Machado , Mark Bradford From: Erik Kluzek Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 08:50:57 -0700 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Watered down and Surpassing the teacher Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net A quote from an earlier message... >> That, to me, is why this forum and others like it are SO important >> and why >> we owe our loyalty, respect and diligence to those masters and their >> kwans >> who pass down all we can absorb. Ray responded..... > I've always felt it important to look up to our instructors and to > honor > them, but to also strive to surpass them. This view may threaten some, > but if we don't take things to the next level then what future is there > for the martial arts. A quote I like from one of my seniors Master Don Richardson of Flagstaff AZ "You don't honor your instructors by being like them -- you honor them by learning to be better than they are. To be faster, stronger, ...better. That is what truly honors your instructors". He said that to someone who was in the habit of doing their forms too slow. When he suggested going faster, she responded by saying "I honor my instructors by doing them how they taught me". He turned it around by pointing out that excellent students is the reward of excellent instruction. I think he makes an excellent point. Another analogy is something that Bruce Lee taught. If someone points to the moon, you don't put your focus on the finger -- you put your focus on the moon. Instructors are like people pointing to the moon. It's not that they want you to be like them -- it's that they want you to aspire to be even greater than they are. As you look at more and more capable students you see them progressing toward the path of perfection, but none of them obtain it. But the progression suggests where out in the distance perfection lies.... Erik Kluzek !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "J R Hilland" To: Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 10:36:11 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: India Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <<>> Yes, it is a myth that all martial arts originated in India, fighting arts were a natural response of the specific region to armed and unarmed combat. The martial arts may have originated in ancient times in East Asia, but because their beginnings are shrouded in myth and legend, it is impossible to establish their exact history. Jere R. Hilland, Fargo, ND www.hapkidoselfdefense.com --__--__-- Message: 3 Cc: David Curtis , Sandy Johnson , Mark Moore , Mort Heathman , Outi , Susan Montgomery-Hodge , Sherrel Price , Bill Hodge , Pablo Machado , Mark Bradford From: Erik Kluzek Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 09:43:54 -0700 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Bruisers vs. weenies.... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I'm not sure who said this first section.... > "......If you train for recreation, with your family that is great. I > can respect > that, just be careful not to get a false since of security. If you > think you > are training realisticly test yourself realisticly. This does not mean > you > have to fight to the death, or knock each other out. Just have someone > big > grab you and tell them not to let you go unless you force it to > happen. Put > somebody on top of you and tell them not to let you up unless you > force it to > happen. Put on the pads and tell someone to attack with out reguard > for your > safty. This will be a humbling experiance.,,,," > Bruce Sims replied with... > I agree with this entire post. I think it is accurate and to the > point. Where things start going haywire is the matter of people > getting up the next day and going about their "real lives". For > instance, traditionally, the Korean martial tradition was borne of a > small cadre of professionals who kept a force of corvee troops up to > minimal standards with regular training-- say, once a month or every > three weeks--- whatever. When these "draftees" were swinging sticks > around they might just as easily been used to resurface a road or > rebuild a bridge. > > Now lets look at it from the art's side > > Get a bunch of people together and let them know that you are going > to train them well. Lots of conditioning and drills and full-contact > sparring (no face or head contact). Call it Kyokushin Karate. The > young jocks stick around and everyone else leaves. Then among the > young jocks the numbers thin out in favor of the big, fire-plug types. > What you wind up with are guys who probably coulda beat ass anyhow and > now have a place where they can bone-up on beating-ass. > > OK-- now lets put the two pieces together. > > On the one hand you have typical people who want to feel more > confident in a pretty scary world. They will probably never use their > techniques but it makes themselves feel all warm and cozy to think > they are the baddest person on two legs even if they can't handle > showing up at home or work with a bruise or two. > > On the other hand you have brusiers who can't wait to stomp somebody > whether they use a martial art steeped in centuries of tradition or > not. > > Take these two groups and put one group on one end of a pain > continuum and the other group on the other end. The survival of the > Hapkido arts is somewhere between these two points would you say? > Thoughts? Comments? Since I don't train in Hapkido, let me open this up to all martial arts, as I don't think there is anything style specific in this discussion. I think the progression that Bruce points out is accurate. If you're entire training curriculum is hard-core -- only the big Bruisers will come and practice with you. But, this neglects the fact that martial arts training -- changes people. People who train for a considerable length of time will develop in unexpected ways. Personally, when I started training there is NO WAY I would've trained in a hard core martial art like Kyokushin. And there is NO WAY I would've done anything full contact whatsoever. But, now I can see doing training in Kyokushin, and do some contact training. And now my ability to take pain from either contact or joint manipulation is pretty dang high. Now granted this is after 22+ years of training, but I've gone through development in pain tolerance along the way. On the other side of the spectrum is that I think most weenies KNOW they aren't bruisers! As I started my training I gained some confidence, but I knew I wasn't "the baddest person on two legs". I still was easily intimidated for a very long period of time. But, I was much more capable of responding to an attack having HAD some training than not having any at all! So it's still worthwhile training weenies. Weenies can grow up -- I have. Weenies are also probably the ones that need the most training as well. My point is that if someone trains in the martial arts for a long enough period of time -- it will change them! The key is being able to keep them in for a very long period of time, and ramp their training up as they progress. Once, students reach higher levels -- their ability to take contact and pain -- will be higher and you can do harder drills than you can with new white belt weenies. Eventually, you should be able to do the very type of drills that were given in the beginning of this message... Erik Kluzek Colorado !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 11:55:20 -0500 (EST) From: "Benjamin Nall" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: India Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <> Perhaps it was a lazy choice of words, (although I am pretty certain that just 'cause people in general seem to prefer beating on each other one way or the other doesn't imply all cultures developed what we would here consider 'martial arts') but the point is that Asian, and especially Chinese martial arts were heavily influenced by Indian martial arts. Hence, you taking the stance that Korean and Japanese martial arts owe something to, or are somehow inferior to, Chinese martial arts, is just as ridiculous as me saying that all martial arts originated in India. Yes? BongSoo --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 09:13:42 -0800 (PST) From: Robert Martin To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Surpassing the teacher Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "An instructor should be eager for his students to surpass him; it is the ultimate compliment for an instructor. A student should never be held back. If the instructor realizes his student has developed beyond his teaching capabilities, the student should be sent to a higher ranking insturctor." Choi Hong Hi --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Tim" To: Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 18:16:33 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Brick break Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I need some help in preparing to break a brick. I have been practicing with my feet and with an axe kick it pretty easy. I am however having trouble with my hands. Are the bricks that we have today the same as what was used all along? I am a pretty strong guy and cant break a 1 inch thick piece of cinder. What is wrong??? Thanks, Tim --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest