Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 03:01:19 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 12 #483 - 5 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2000 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. ATA (instructor@realtaekwondo.com) 2. Re: re:Troll? (Craig Zeigler) 3. Re: ATA (Manuel Maldonado) 4. Comments on ATA (C.Sears) 5. RE: Comments on ATA (Thomas Gordon) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 10:52:05 -0800 From: instructor@realtaekwondo.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] ATA Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "The person admitted toward the end that there are numerous cases of "that doesn't happen in my school", etc..posts out there. So, doesn't this really say something? If an organization can grow, continue to attract and retain membership, then they must, as a whole, be offering a service at a preceived value consistent with the cost. Otherwise, people go elsewhere, and those businesses close." Most parents that have never seen martial arts before have no idea what training should look like. Where most martial artists refine their martial skills, the ATA refines their business skills. My nephew belonged to the ATA in Weston, Florida. He was close to his black belt (or whatever the first level of black belt is for them) and I came to visit his school. I was apalled, there were black belt kids that could not do a roundhouse without losing his balance and falling. It was all motivation, word of the week, but no real martial arts training. I was there with one of my young junior black belts and he had his mouth open in awe of the crap he was seeing. Needless to say, I made sure my sister pulled him out right there on the spot. I told her it was better not to have him do martial arts till we find a good school, than for him to continue in the ATA. That was the sixth ATA school I have seen in three different states and all the same. There is a school in a city nearby that teaches a different style (not taekwondo) and they hired a gentleman that was one of the original people that help start the ATA. They pay him $900 per month to be their mentor and be available for phone conferences. They guarantee that instructor that if they follow their business plan, they will end up with 350 students in "x" amount of time. I found this out from one of their new instructors (that just started training with them for a year and half). Like I said, its all about the business. I laugh when some ATA schools advertise 2002 World Champion. They should state ATA only champion. --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 15:46:06 -0500 From: Craig Zeigler To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] re:Troll? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Thomas Gordon wrote: >Mr. Mark, > >"Of the 300,000 members of the ATA (# from their website), does the >number of 'complaints' that we 'hear' constitute a high percentage?" > >A more accurate number is 150,000-180,000 members. When I opened our >school/club, there were roughly 1500 active schools/clubs. Today, eight >years later, there still is. > >300,000 members at 1500 schools would mean the average school would have >200 members. I don't know of any schools in my area (and there's a >bunch) with 200 students at any one location. > >ATA always inflates their numbers. I've been at tournaments with >150-200 competitors. When it was completed, they said 500 competitors? >What?! How?! They count each "competitor" based on entry. In other >words, you count as three if you compete in forms, sparring, and >weapons. Now ATA has added XMA forms and XMA weapons. So it's very >possible that one person may be counted five times. In other words, a >competition with 2000 competitors may only actually be 400 people >competing in five divisions. > >Just like the recent articles saying ATA was trying to change 1,000,000 >lives and said it was an active count. When I asked, I was told it was >a running head count from 1969. Totally different scenario from 1 >million active to 1 million in 36 years. > >Thomas Gordon >Florida > > > > > > > > > > > > > >. > >-------------------------------------------- >My mailbox is spam-free with ChoiceMail, the leader in personal and corporate anti-spam solutions. Download your free copy of ChoiceMail from www.digiportal.com >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2000 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang > > > I recently noticed something very close to what has been said here, and would like to share a short story hoping some of you all would indulge me. Last night, I was out with some friends, and a student of the McDojang I attended before one of their student's lack of control injured me. this young person of roughly 16 years old was showing off for his buddies when he recognized me. When he calmed down, and said hello, I gave him a short lecture about how martial arts is not intended to be something to play with and show off. He did not take this well and was irritated when he left. I'm not sure if this was an ATA school or not, and it doesn't really matter. I never saw any marking of any kinds anyway. The point here is that some schools are teaching whatever the students need to advance to the next belt, but they don't learn much. This young person was executing some very poorly formed motions, and lacked any kind of definition. To me, this is a great failing by any master who does not teach the self discipline, and respect that I feel must accompany martial arts. By definition, this is a discipline, and a means of self defense, exercise and learning. I realize that was a bit of babbling, but what do the rest of you think? -Craig Zeigler --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Manuel Maldonado" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 14:41:31 -0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: ATA Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I'll take a large fries with that hahahahahaha McDojangs Manuel Maldonado --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 22:23:12 -0600 From: "C.Sears" To: Dojang Digest Subject: [The_Dojang] Comments on ATA Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net The original post on bullshido was from someone who spent maybe two months in an ATA school. From those two months, he makes the blind assumption that all ATA schools are the same. His experience was sad, but it was uncommon. The problem was not that it was an ATA school. The problem was that it was a martial arts school, any style,using the MASS business model. IMNSHO, MASS is a business model better aimed at used car lots rather than martial arts schools. Most of what it advocates is unethical. We attended a MASS seminar. Worst waste of money to date in my school; we wound up throwing out more than 90% of it. Yes, teaching martial arts is a business. We have rent, phone, lights, etc. to pay. Most of us use contracts because it's good business sense to do so. We're teaching to make a comfortable living for ourselves and our families. But at what point do you say "Enough - I can't teach any more students and still maintain a high quality of instruction."? More and more instructors are looking only at the bottom line and looking at their students as resources to be exploited, instead of assets to be cherished and developed. And that hurts all of us. Chuck Sears 5th Degree Black Belt American Taekwondo Association > Message: 3 > From: "Greenbrier Tae Kwon Do Academy" > To: "Dojang Digest" > Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 11:24:45 -0500 > Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: ATA > Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > > Clint stated: > > "He say's the ATA caters to people who > wan't to pay the money, and say they are in TAE KWON-DO, but do not wan't > to sweat, and work at it to much. And the majority of people seem to > wan't that these day's." > > Although they are not ATA, an organization here on the East Coast > opened a > dojang in my area back in February and from what I can tell from their > students who have left them and come to me, it is the same thing. Their > techniques are sloppy because you can tell that they have not been > properly > drilled in the basics. They are definitely in for the money instead of > actually teaching proper technique. > People often ask me "Did that other Karate school that opened up in town > hurt your enrollment any?" I take pride in honestly answering "No. > There > are two kinds of schools. One that will teach you just what you need > to get > from belt to belt as quickly as possible while charging an unGodly > amount of > money and even make you sign a contract. And the other will take time to > actually teach you something useful and care for your progress, all for a > nominal amount. I fall in the category of the latter. Because of > this my > retention level among my students has remained high." They get the > point > then. > > > James Morgan > GTKDA --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Thomas Gordon" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Comments on ATA Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 23:16:35 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Welcome to the dojang digest Mr. Sears. Glad to see ya aboard. Thomas Gordon Florida --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest