Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 03:01:57 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 12 #492 - 6 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on plus11.host4u.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.3 required=5.0 tests=NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2000 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. RE: SongAhm style (Thomas Gordon) 2. Re: SongAhm style (Dante James) 3. "Eternal Grand Master" (was re: MTA?) (Christopher Spiller) 4. RE: "Grandmaster" (Howard Spivey) 5. Re: RE: "Grandmaster" (Jye nigma) 6. Crisis in Taekwondo (Dave Zapencki) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Thomas Gordon" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] SongAhm style Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 01:03:28 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Sears, Seems like it was Jee Ho Lee that developed many (if not all) the Songahm forms. I know he takes credit for developing the central computer system for ATA. He was the chairman for instruction in ATA and wrote the first instructor's manual in the early 80's that is still the basis for today's ATA instructor's book. Jee Ho Lee was Haeng Ung Lee's brother and they had a big falling out in the late 80's. Interesting about Master Jee Ho Lee, he went from white belt to fourth degree in about 6 years. Took about 11 more years to go to sixth and 14 more to go eighth degree. He claims to study Hanmudo under Dr. Kimm. Thomas Gordon Florida -------------------------------------------- My mailbox is spam-free with ChoiceMail, the leader in personal and corporate anti-spam solutions. Download your free copy of ChoiceMail from www.digiportal.com --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Dante James" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] SongAhm style Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 00:59:09 -0700 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Master Terry, Years ago I did a form by form comparison of SongAhm, Taeguk and Chang Hon. I can't find it now, but the percentage of increased number of kicks, as well as difficulty of kicks, e.g., jumps, spins, double or triple kicks (same leg)before returning to the floor, was significant for each form, and in total up to 1st Dan. Sorry I can't find the specifics. Dante Dante J. James, Esq. www.denverata.com www.kimartialarts.com Change is Inevitable, Growth is Optional ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray" To: Sent: Friday, December 16, 2005 5:46 PM Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] SongAhm style >> Chang-Hon forms. EGM Lee decided that he wanted to teach a style of >> Taekwondo that emphasized the traditional Korean kicking styles, so he >> designed the SongAhm forms. They were first introduced in 1983. > > Any info on how the % of kicks in the Songahm forms compare with the > other TKD or TSD forms/hyung/poomsae? > > Ray Terry > rterry@idiom.com > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2000 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 06:25:19 -0800 (PST) From: Christopher Spiller To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] "Eternal Grand Master" (was re: MTA?) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net J R Hilland wrote: > Eternal grand master? I hope that does not imply the > cult type impression it > gives. I am not a member of the ATA so they'll have to speak for themselves regarding the cult aspect of things, but from what I read in "Taekwon-Do Times" the title "Eternal Grand Master" was bestowed upon H.U. Lee after he *died* a couple years ago. Probably has something to do with the fact that he has "entered eternity" (so to speak). Taekwon, Chris __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Howard Spivey" To: Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 10:17:04 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: "Grandmaster" Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jere Hilland wrote (regarding the term "Grandmaster"): "The term just hasn't been around that long in the history of the MA (although it has been used in chess for a while) and has NO clear definition. If the whole GM title thing went away, we would all be the better for it. Many traditional martial arts do just fine without the term... I apologize for the soapbox, but the use of this term and its variable expansions are getting beyond silly." Jere, I for one wholeheartedly agree with you. Can anybody give us a proper Korean term for "Grandmaster"? What's wrong with plain old "Master"? Beyond that, a master's actual standing in his organization can be determined by his dan rank, can it not? As one who has been scolded publicly for not using "Grandmaster" to refer to the head of my kwan from time to time (even though it was perfectly obvious that I have great respect for the man), I'm glad to here Jere's comments, and I doubt that he and I are the only ones who feel this way. Jere, thanks for getting on that soapbox. --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 10:58:28 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] RE: "Grandmaster" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net maybe they borrowed it from rap music...lol. grandmaster is the highest title for a DJ. ;o) jye Howard Spivey wrote: Jere Hilland wrote (regarding the term "Grandmaster"): __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Dave Zapencki" To: Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 13:52:17 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Crisis in Taekwondo Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Well, after reading the article, I would have to agree that it is a very sad situation for the unfortunate students who get caught up in the scam. Doubly ubfortunate because it is so easily avoided. Yes, I said easily, at least if you are involved in WTF or "olympic" style taekwondo. I do not know about ITF or certainly not ATA. One simple way to check to see if a prospective school and Master are legit is to check that they are listed with USAT or AAU, which takes all of 30 seconds on the web. At the USAT website, http://www.ustu.org/default.asp, click on "Clubs" in the left menu and see if the school and instructor are listed. AAU is similar. The following info is directly from the USAT website... ------------------ Dan Certification USA TAEKWONDO DAN OFFICE The Dan office at USA Taekwondo provides a direct link between the United States and the Kukkiwon office in Korea. It is our goal to provide efficient processing of your students Black Belt certificates and to provide a support system with Kukkiwon. Instructors who hold the rank of Kukkiwon 4th Dan or above and are USA Taekwondo Club members are eligible to promote their students through this office. Kukkiwon provides the Black Belt certificates issued by the USA Taekwondo Dan office and the individuals processed are recorded with the Kukkiwon offices via quarterly reports. The Dan office follows all rules and regulations set forth by the Kukkiwon and the World Taekwondo Federation. Guidelines for Processing 1) The instructor must have a 4th Dan or higher Kukkiwon certificate and USAT membership to be eligible to test and process with this office. Prior to any information being released from this office you must submit a request for a Dan Packet with your school name, address, USA Taekwondo, Inc. club number, phone number and a copy of your certificate to michelle.george@usa-taekwondo.us. 2) The school must be a registered USA Taekwondo, Inc. Club prior to processing. 3) All applicants must currently be a member of USA Taekwondo, Inc. 4) Submit an application for promotion on each individual. The Instructor must sign in blue ink. (We do not accept faxed or photocopied applications. We must have the original signature.) Please attach two ID size photos. Provide a copy of the student's prior certificate, if applying for a 2nd Poom/Dan or higher. Provide proof of the students' current USA Taekwondo, Inc. membership. Please note that incomplete applications will be returned. 5) Type your applications using English alphabet letters when submitting Poom/Dan promotion recommendation forms. A Hand written application makes it very difficult to spell recipient's name correctly on their certificates. 6) Please spell out the month in the applicant's date of birth. We prefer, for example: Jan 02, 2005 or 02 Jan, 2005. It is very confusing when the date of birth is written as follows: 2/1/2005 or 1/2/2005. 7) Please provide us with your current telephone, fax number and email address on the application so that we can contact you immediately should any problems or issues arise. 8) Please type in the name of the recommending instructor and his/her Dan certificate number under the signature line. 9) Acceptable forms of payment are money orders, cashiers checks, Visa and MasterCard. 10) All applications that are submitted through this office will be considered USA Citizens and the certificates will be printed as such. 11) Only Instructors are permitted to ask for confirmations or check the status of their students. 12) Gup certificates are obtainable for $3.00 each, or orders of 100 or more at $2.00 each. They are available in yellow, green, blue, and red. Send requests with payment and return address to USA Taekwondo, Inc. Dan office. 13) Processing times: 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th Dan/Poom = 3-6 weeks 5th, 6th, and 7th Dan = 4-6 months Skip Dan & Replacements = 4-6 months 14) All Candidates for 6th Dan or higher must submit a written thesis about Taekwondo on A-4 size paper 10 or more pages in length along with their application. Please send Dan office inquiries to Michelle George, USA Taekwondo, Dan Office Email: michelle.george@usa-taekwondo.us -------------- Hope this info can save someone some heartache... DAve [demime 0.98e removed an attachment of type image/gif which had a name of spacer.gif] --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest From the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net Sun Dec 18 05:08:49 2005 Return-Path: Received: from rimmon.cisto.com (rimmon.cisto.com [69.10.135.37]) by plus11.host4u.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id jBIB8lM00943 for ; Sun, 18 Dec 2005 05:08:48 -0600 Received: (qmail 9789 invoked from network); 18 Dec 2005 11:06:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO rimmon.cisto.com) (127.0.0.1) by 0 with SMTP; 18 Dec 2005 11:06:45 -0000 Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 03:01:57 -0800 Message-ID: <20051218110157.6987.76993.Mailman@rimmon.cisto.com> From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 12 #492 - 6 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on plus11.host4u.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.3 required=5.0 tests=NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2000 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. RE: SongAhm style (Thomas Gordon) 2. Re: SongAhm style (Dante James) 3. "Eternal Grand Master" (was re: MTA?) (Christopher Spiller) 4. RE: "Grandmaster" (Howard Spivey) 5. Re: RE: "Grandmaster" (Jye nigma) 6. Crisis in Taekwondo (Dave Zapencki) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Thomas Gordon" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] SongAhm style Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 01:03:28 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Sears, Seems like it was Jee Ho Lee that developed many (if not all) the Songahm forms. I know he takes credit for developing the central computer system for ATA. He was the chairman for instruction in ATA and wrote the first instructor's manual in the early 80's that is still the basis for today's ATA instructor's book. Jee Ho Lee was Haeng Ung Lee's brother and they had a big falling out in the late 80's. Interesting about Master Jee Ho Lee, he went from white belt to fourth degree in about 6 years. Took about 11 more years to go to sixth and 14 more to go eighth degree. He claims to study Hanmudo under Dr. Kimm. Thomas Gordon Florida -------------------------------------------- My mailbox is spam-free with ChoiceMail, the leader in personal and corporate anti-spam solutions. Download your free copy of ChoiceMail from www.digiportal.com --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Dante James" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] SongAhm style Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 00:59:09 -0700 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Master Terry, Years ago I did a form by form comparison of SongAhm, Taeguk and Chang Hon. I can't find it now, but the percentage of increased number of kicks, as well as difficulty of kicks, e.g., jumps, spins, double or triple kicks (same leg)before returning to the floor, was significant for each form, and in total up to 1st Dan. Sorry I can't find the specifics. Dante Dante J. James, Esq. www.denverata.com www.kimartialarts.com Change is Inevitable, Growth is Optional ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray" To: Sent: Friday, December 16, 2005 5:46 PM Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] SongAhm style >> Chang-Hon forms. EGM Lee decided that he wanted to teach a style of >> Taekwondo that emphasized the traditional Korean kicking styles, so he >> designed the SongAhm forms. They were first introduced in 1983. > > Any info on how the % of kicks in the Songahm forms compare with the > other TKD or TSD forms/hyung/poomsae? > > Ray Terry > rterry@idiom.com > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2000 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 06:25:19 -0800 (PST) From: Christopher Spiller To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] "Eternal Grand Master" (was re: MTA?) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net J R Hilland wrote: > Eternal grand master? I hope that does not imply the > cult type impression it > gives. I am not a member of the ATA so they'll have to speak for themselves regarding the cult aspect of things, but from what I read in "Taekwon-Do Times" the title "Eternal Grand Master" was bestowed upon H.U. Lee after he *died* a couple years ago. Probably has something to do with the fact that he has "entered eternity" (so to speak). Taekwon, Chris __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Howard Spivey" To: Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 10:17:04 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: "Grandmaster" Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jere Hilland wrote (regarding the term "Grandmaster"): "The term just hasn't been around that long in the history of the MA (although it has been used in chess for a while) and has NO clear definition. If the whole GM title thing went away, we would all be the better for it. Many traditional martial arts do just fine without the term... I apologize for the soapbox, but the use of this term and its variable expansions are getting beyond silly." Jere, I for one wholeheartedly agree with you. Can anybody give us a proper Korean term for "Grandmaster"? What's wrong with plain old "Master"? Beyond that, a master's actual standing in his organization can be determined by his dan rank, can it not? As one who has been scolded publicly for not using "Grandmaster" to refer to the head of my kwan from time to time (even though it was perfectly obvious that I have great respect for the man), I'm glad to here Jere's comments, and I doubt that he and I are the only ones who feel this way. Jere, thanks for getting on that soapbox. --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 10:58:28 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] RE: "Grandmaster" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net maybe they borrowed it from rap music...lol. grandmaster is the highest title for a DJ. ;o) jye Howard Spivey wrote: Jere Hilland wrote (regarding the term "Grandmaster"): __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Dave Zapencki" To: Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 13:52:17 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Crisis in Taekwondo Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Well, after reading the article, I would have to agree that it is a very sad situation for the unfortunate students who get caught up in the scam. Doubly ubfortunate because it is so easily avoided. Yes, I said easily, at least if you are involved in WTF or "olympic" style taekwondo. I do not know about ITF or certainly not ATA. One simple way to check to see if a prospective school and Master are legit is to check that they are listed with USAT or AAU, which takes all of 30 seconds on the web. At the USAT website, http://www.ustu.org/default.asp, click on "Clubs" in the left menu and see if the school and instructor are listed. AAU is similar. The following info is directly from the USAT website... ------------------ Dan Certification USA TAEKWONDO DAN OFFICE The Dan office at USA Taekwondo provides a direct link between the United States and the Kukkiwon office in Korea. It is our goal to provide efficient processing of your students Black Belt certificates and to provide a support system with Kukkiwon. Instructors who hold the rank of Kukkiwon 4th Dan or above and are USA Taekwondo Club members are eligible to promote their students through this office. Kukkiwon provides the Black Belt certificates issued by the USA Taekwondo Dan office and the individuals processed are recorded with the Kukkiwon offices via quarterly reports. The Dan office follows all rules and regulations set forth by the Kukkiwon and the World Taekwondo Federation. Guidelines for Processing 1) The instructor must have a 4th Dan or higher Kukkiwon certificate and USAT membership to be eligible to test and process with this office. Prior to any information being released from this office you must submit a request for a Dan Packet with your school name, address, USA Taekwondo, Inc. club number, phone number and a copy of your certificate to michelle.george@usa-taekwondo.us. 2) The school must be a registered USA Taekwondo, Inc. Club prior to processing. 3) All applicants must currently be a member of USA Taekwondo, Inc. 4) Submit an application for promotion on each individual. The Instructor must sign in blue ink. (We do not accept faxed or photocopied applications. We must have the original signature.) Please attach two ID size photos. Provide a copy of the student's prior certificate, if applying for a 2nd Poom/Dan or higher. Provide proof of the students' current USA Taekwondo, Inc. membership. Please note that incomplete applications will be returned. 5) Type your applications using English alphabet letters when submitting Poom/Dan promotion recommendation forms. A Hand written application makes it very difficult to spell recipient's name correctly on their certificates. 6) Please spell out the month in the applicant's date of birth. We prefer, for example: Jan 02, 2005 or 02 Jan, 2005. It is very confusing when the date of birth is written as follows: 2/1/2005 or 1/2/2005. 7) Please provide us with your current telephone, fax number and email address on the application so that we can contact you immediately should any problems or issues arise. 8) Please type in the name of the recommending instructor and his/her Dan certificate number under the signature line. 9) Acceptable forms of payment are money orders, cashiers checks, Visa and MasterCard. 10) All applications that are submitted through this office will be considered USA Citizens and the certificates will be printed as such. 11) Only Instructors are permitted to ask for confirmations or check the status of their students. 12) Gup certificates are obtainable for $3.00 each, or orders of 100 or more at $2.00 each. They are available in yellow, green, blue, and red. Send requests with payment and return address to USA Taekwondo, Inc. Dan office. 13) Processing times: 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th Dan/Poom = 3-6 weeks 5th, 6th, and 7th Dan = 4-6 months Skip Dan & Replacements = 4-6 months 14) All Candidates for 6th Dan or higher must submit a written thesis about Taekwondo on A-4 size paper 10 or more pages in length along with their application. Please send Dan office inquiries to Michelle George, USA Taekwondo, Dan Office Email: michelle.george@usa-taekwondo.us -------------- Hope this info can save someone some heartache... DAve [demime 0.98e removed an attachment of type image/gif which had a name of spacer.gif] --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest