Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 03:02:22 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 12 #493 - 11 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2000 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Jee Ho Lee (Bob Banham) 2. Grandmaster (Todd Miller) 3. RE: "Grandmaster" (Chris LaCava) 4. 57th IR course (Ray) 5. Re: RE: "Grandmaster" (Tim) 6. Re: RE: "Grandmaster" (Ray) 7. RE: "Grandmaster" (Kops, Kenneth MAJ USAR HQDA G3 SOD) 8. Re: Jee Ho Lee (Dante James) 9. Re: RE: "Grandmaster" (Ray) 10. Re: RE: "Grandmaster" (John Johnson) 11. Titles ? (Ray) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Bob Banham" To: Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 12:03:17 -0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] Jee Ho Lee Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I know nothing of Jee Ho Lee's taekwondo background but it is true that he has studied Hanmudo with Dr Kimm. I was on his 1st degree grading panel. Bob --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Todd Miller" To: Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 10:12:04 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Grandmaster Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net When the head of an organization along with the senior Master's use a term like Grandmaster I would say it is very appropriate for a first dan to do like wise. Sincerely, Todd Miller Jungki Kwan International --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Chris LaCava" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 10:19:44 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: "Grandmaster" Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Howard S. <> I refer to our head as GM Lim because that is what I am used to. I know I'm a trained dog. ;) When he refers to his teacher, he says Master Choi. Not “Grandmaster, “Supreme Pooba” or any other such English term. I always found that very interesting. In my opinion, it’s not what you say, but how you say it and the intention behind it. Just because I call someone "Supreme Grandmaster” or “Master” does not mean I have any respect for the person. Actually, if I rip out "Supreme Grandmaster” it probably means the opposite. :) On the other side of the coin, I have the utmost respect for people, like Howard, and I call them by their first name. Another good example is Master West. He has earned 8th dan over the years and he could be called GM, but what I call him does not belittle the respect I have for the man. I don’t know how many times I have heard the phrase, "intention is everything." In my experience the bottom line is... From martial arts training to studying acupuncture to just living a quality life… that is always a key point. Take care Chris “from CT” LaCava LaCava's Martial Arts Westport, CT. http://lmaa.bravepages.com Online Store- http://www.cafepress.com/hapkidogear --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Ray To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 08:06:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] 57th IR course Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net 57th International Referee Refresher Course The World Taekwondo Federation has approved the 57th International Referee Refresher Course to be held on February 12-14, 2006, at the Crowne Plaza Hotel in Dallas, Texas prior to the US Open which is scheduled for Feb 16-19. Contact USA Taekwondo for more info. --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Tim" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] RE: "Grandmaster" Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 11:18:18 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net The way to address grand master is Kwan Jang Nim. 4Th dan and higher is Seom Ba Nim and any other instructors are Son Seong Nim. Goodluck, Tim Gifford ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris LaCava" To: Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2005 10:19 AM Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: "Grandmaster" > Howard S. < "Grandmaster" to refer to the head of my kwan from time to time (even > though it was perfectly obvious that I have great respect for the man), > I'm glad to here Jere's comments, and I doubt that he and I are the only > ones who feel this way.>> > > I refer to our head as GM Lim because that is what I am used to. I know > I'm a trained dog. ;) When he refers to his teacher, he says Master > Choi. Not "Grandmaster, "Supreme Pooba" or any other such English term. I > always found that very interesting. > > In my opinion, it's not what you say, but how you say it and the intention > behind it. Just because I call someone "Supreme Grandmaster" or "Master" > does not mean I have any respect for the person. Actually, if I rip out > "Supreme Grandmaster" it probably means the opposite. :) > > On the other side of the coin, I have the utmost respect for people, like > Howard, and I call them by their first name. Another good example is > Master West. He has earned 8th dan over the years and he could be called > GM, but what I call him does not belittle the respect I have for the man. > > I don't know how many times I have heard the phrase, "intention is > everything." In my experience the bottom line is... From martial arts > training to studying acupuncture to just living a quality life. that is > always a key point. > > Take care > Chris "from CT" LaCava > > > LaCava's Martial Arts > Westport, CT. > http://lmaa.bravepages.com > Online Store- http://www.cafepress.com/hapkidogear > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2000 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] RE: "Grandmaster" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 08:34:28 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > The way to address grand master is Kwan Jang Nim. 4Th dan and higher is Seom > Ba Nim and any other instructors are Son Seong Nim. Kwanjang-nim is, of course, not really a martial arts title. It has a far more generic and broad use in Korea. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 11:59:44 -0500 From: "Kops, Kenneth MAJ USAR HQDA G3 SOD" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: "Grandmaster" Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi, Great forum, guys...really interesting stuff. Regarding Mr. Hilland's question regarding proper Korean terms for "grandmaster" and "master. Here are my qualifications to answer the questions: First, I am married to a fine Korean lady with a Masters degree in English. Her translation skills are great. Second, I am a 3rd dan, WTF, KTA who lived and trained in Korea from 1992 - 2000. GRANDMASTER: There is no Korean term that directly translates. In Korea, the "grandmaster" is called "kwan jang nim" (which directly translates into "dojang owner/president"). MASTER: The Korean term that is used in this instance is "sa beom nim" (which directly translates into "coach" or "high master"). I hope this helps. -Ken KENNETH E. KOPS 3rd Dan, WTF, KTA Message: 4 From: "Howard Spivey" To: Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 10:17:04 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: "Grandmaster" Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jere Hilland wrote (regarding the term "Grandmaster"): "The term just hasn't been around that long in the history of the MA (although it has been used in chess for a while) and has NO clear definition. If the whole GM title thing went away, we would all be the better for it. Many traditional martial arts do just fine without the term... I apologize for the soapbox, but the use of this term and its variable expansions are getting beyond silly." Jere, I for one wholeheartedly agree with you. Can anybody give us a proper Korean term for "Grandmaster"? What's wrong with plain old "Master"? Beyond that, a master's actual standing in his organization can be determined by his dan rank, can it not? As one who has been scolded publicly for not using "Grandmaster" to refer to the head of my kwan from time to time (even though it was perfectly obvious that I have great respect for the man), I'm glad to here Jere's comments, and I doubt that he and I are the only ones who feel this way. Jere, thanks for getting on that soapbox. --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Dante James" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Jee Ho Lee Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 10:08:42 -0700 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I trained with Jee Ho Lee in the early 80's and he was an amazing technician, and extremely powerful. I think he was a 5th Dan then. I would love to know of his training with Dr. Kimm and when he tested with him. The story I heard from one of my instructors who had been with the ATA since its early beginnings was that when he first arrived in the US his technique was not very good, and H.U. Lee was actually embarrassed by his brother's technique. GM took Jee Ho and trained him for hours every day for 6 months, and when he was done, Jee Ho the technician was "born". Peace Dante Dante J. James, Esq. www.denverata.com www.kimartialarts.com Change is Inevitable, Growth is Optional ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Banham" To: Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2005 5:03 AM Subject: [The_Dojang] Jee Ho Lee >I know nothing of Jee Ho Lee's taekwondo background but it is true that he >has > studied Hanmudo with Dr Kimm. I was on his 1st degree grading panel. > Bob > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2000 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] RE: "Grandmaster" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 10:20:24 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > GRANDMASTER: There is no Korean term that directly translates. In Korea, the > "grandmaster" is called "kwan jang nim" (which directly translates into > "dojang owner/president"). And not just for a dojang, right? Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "John Johnson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] RE: "Grandmaster" Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 00:54:41 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "Kwan jang nim" simply means "school head" or "school leader." There are other terms for seniors, the most common is "son bae nim." However, I'm unsureof the titles for the old guys who have been around since the being. If they are still teaching (and most do), I call them "kwan jang nim." John A. Johnson KHF e-Culture Team Representative Seoul, South Korea -------------------------------------------------------------------- From:  Ray Reply-To:  the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To:  the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject:  Re: [The_Dojang] RE: "Grandmaster" Date:  Sun, 18 Dec 2005 10:20:24 -0800 (PST) > > GRANDMASTER:  There is no Korean term that directly translates.  In Korea, the > > "grandmaster" is called "kwan jang nim" (which directly translates into > > "dojang owner/president"). > >And not just for a dojang, right? > >Ray Terry >rterry@idiom.com >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list,  2000 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 11 From: Ray To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 17:30:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] Titles ? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > John A. Johnson > KHF e-Culture Team Representative Hi John, New title for you? I was thinking that you were an IT Team Rep (or something like that) before... What outwardly focused teams/groups does the KHF have these days? Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest