Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 03:01:59 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 12 #494 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2000 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. RE: Titles ? (John Johnson) 2. Master Cha, Du Man (Benjamin Nall) 3. Songahm forms and kicking (Burdick, Dakin Robert) 4. KOREAN MARTIAL ART TITLES (Fred Gommels) 5. "grandmaster" (Bruce Sims) 6. Re: Professional martial artists (aburrese@aol.com) 7. RE:Grandmaster (Manuel Maldonado) 8. Sa Bom Nim (Curt McCauley) 9. RE: Grandmaster, etc. (Howard Spivey) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "John Johnson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Titles ? Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 10:08:09 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Ray, I was a member of the IT Team for a while and then the International Relations Director, but when Master Bae stepped down both positions became defunct. I'm now trying to help the new Planning Director, Gimm June, develop international procedures and policies for the KHF. It's a long, long, complicated process. Korean politics are something I wouldn't wish upon anyone, but I'm doing what I can to help those who want it. Take care, John -------------------------------------------------------------------- From:  Ray Reply-To:  the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To:  the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject:  [The_Dojang] Titles ? Date:  Sun, 18 Dec 2005 17:30:12 -0800 (PST) > > John A. Johnson > > KHF e-Culture Team Representative > >Hi John, > >New title for you?  I was thinking that you were an IT Team Rep (or something >like that) before... > >What outwardly focused teams/groups does the KHF have these days? > >Ray Terry >rterry@idiom.com >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list,  2000 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 2 From: Benjamin Nall Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 09:24:53 -0500 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Master Cha, Du Man Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi all, Can anyone tell me or help me find more information on Master Cha, Du Man? Thanks BongSoo --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 09:32:00 -0500 From: "Burdick, Dakin Robert" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Songahm forms and kicking Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ray asked: > Any info on how the % of kicks in the Songahm forms compare with the > other TKD or TSD forms/hyung/poomsae? TSD is based on the Okinawan curriculum, while the Songahm set is more like TKD sparring kicks from the 1970s. The Songahm set has a lot of kicks in it, spinning and high kicks especially (crescents, etc), and although I didn't practice them, I thought they would be good for teaching TKD/Kickboxing related skills. I liked that they were all in a diamond pattern -- that was an elegant touch! Take care, Dakin dakinburdick@yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Fred Gommels" To: "DOJANG DIGEST" Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 09:25:41 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] KOREAN MARTIAL ART TITLES Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net KOREAN MARTIAL ART TITLES I have been training in the martial arts since 1973. For the past 7 years I have made a study of the Korean language my passion. I have been to Korea 5 times and am in contact with Korean friends and masters on a weekly basis in their native tongue. Through this study of the Korean language I have gained a better understanding of many commonly used martial arts terms. I have noticed that many martial artists are led to believe that the term “KwanJangNim” means master or grandmaster. In some martial arts circles today this title is used with such reverence as to keep us in awe of the great and almighty “KwanJangNim”. While it is often appropriate to use this as a martial art title, if you take a close look at the Korean language you’ ll find the following information to be true. Kwan: is actually a suffix of the term “chae yook kwan” a common term in Korea used now days for “dojang”. Chae yook: means fitness, athletic training, or physical education Kwan is a common suffix for: “toh suh kwan” meaning library “pang muhl kwan” meaning museum “mee sul kwan” meaning fine art center “Chae yook kwan” meaning fitness or athletic center, also martial arts school Most of the traditional TKD Kwans started out in gymnasiums and used the suffix “kwan” such as MooDukKwan, ChungDoKwan. etc. Some of these kwans have now become so well-organized and wide spread that their use of “kwan” in their name has the connotation of association. In the context of “KwanJangNim” Jang means director of a kwan. Kwan jang: as a verb means to take charge of or to manage. Kwan jang: as a noun translates to director or superintendent. Kwan jang: in the Korean language can be used as the title for the director of a library, a museum, or an art center, as well as the owner of a martial art school. Nim: is an added suffix for appropriate referral of respect. The idea that “kwanjang-nim” means master or grandmaster most likely comes from a common standard among martial artists in Korea. That standard is to own a martial arts school one must be a 4th Dan black belt and is then called a “kwanjang-nim”. The (American martial artist) assumption is that kwanjang means master, when it truly means the owner/director of a martial arts school commonly referred to as a chae yook kwan (fitness center). Without owning a martial arts school, a 4th Dan and above would normally be referred to as a “sabom-nim”. This title is also given to someone who is a qualified instructor, master, teacher, or sports coach. IN SUMMARY: You do not need to know any martial arts at all to hold the title of “KwanJangNim”. If you ever have occasion to speak to the director of a Korean museum, library, sports facility, or art center you may also refer to the director as “KwanJangNim”. Haksaeng: term for student in general Sonseang-nim: teacher * general term for teacher. The equivalent to “sensei” in Japanese * respectful form of the word “you” Yudanja-nim: any holder of a black belt Sabom-nim: martial arts instructor (in Korea usually 4th Dan and above) Kwan jang-nim: owner of a martial arts school * kwan – suffix of common term for martial arts school Chae yook “kwan” (literally: fitness center) * jang - a suffix term meaning head, chief, or director of * nim - a respectful suffix added to a person’s title Chong kwan jang-nim: means the head or chief Kwan jang, who oversees other school owners. * Chong in this context means whole, general, or overall Hae jang-nim: president or head of an association. Hae is the shortened version of Hyup Hae meaning association. Suseung-nim: This term is used by some Koreans to refer to a their martial arts teacher as their master instructor. This term refers to the teacher-pupil and master-disciple relationship in other areas as well. Dojang: traditional term for martial arts training hall or gym sometimes. For other martial arts terms visit: http://www.mafci.com/terminology/ and http://www.academictaekwondo.com/termstance.htm Fredrick J. Gommels Martial Art Fitness Centers, Inc. Korea / USA Simmudo Association 2849 S. Broadway Rochester MN 55904 www.mafci.com www.simmudo.com --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 09:33:37 -0800 (PST) From: Bruce Sims To: Ray Terry Subject: [The_Dojang] "grandmaster" Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "...> The way to address grand master is Kwan Jang Nim. 4Th dan and higher is Seom > Ba Nim and any other instructors are Son Seong Nim. Kwanjang-nim is, of course, not really a martial arts title. It has a far more generic and broad use in Korea....." No sense in going over the whole mess again. Anyone can use the search function can pick-up on this same subject at regular intervals in the DD archives. I doubt that my own teacher KJN Myung will ever give-up using either "grandmaster" or the ranking system. As far as I am concerned, once he is gone the rank system, though, "grandmaster", Supreme Grandmaster, Eternal Grandmaster and "Chrome-Plated Sooper-Dooper Economy Size Grand Poobah" are all going with him. Until then, if thats what he wants, I suppose thats what he is going to get. I think anyone who has read any of my thoughts knows that I believe it was a mistake to ever use this manner of structuring things in the first place and time has not proven me wrong. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 12:43:50 -0500 From: aburrese@aol.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Professional martial artists Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dakin, Very good post. It had some excellent points. Alain www.burrese.com --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Manuel Maldonado" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 09:55:14 -0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE:Grandmaster Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Just call them dude hahahaha all joking aside I as well lived and trained in Te Han Min Guk (Korea) the word Kwang Jang Nim is used as well as a president of a company, owner of an apartment building and so on. I am quite fuent in korean as I was married to one for 15 years, and lived in the land of the morning calm for 5 years. When I trained in Korea our instructor  5th Dan we called him Sa Bum Nim (Coach or Intructor) our Kwan Jang Nim was "Mr." Kim a 7th dan we vever used the word Master only Mister.I hope this helps as well Thank You for leting me post as well My title will be "Please pass the Gray Pupon" Maldonado --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 11:33:23 -0800 From: "Curt McCauley" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Sa Bom Nim Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net MASTER: The Korean term that is used in this instance is "sa beom nim" (which directly translates into "coach" or "high master"). According to "a Guide for Korean Characters" by Bruce Grant The Characters in Han Ja or Han Mun are as follows: Sa = Teacher, instructor or master. Bom (beom) = Law, rules; custom; pattern or model. Kyo- Teach or Teaching Sa- Teacher or instructor REspectfully Curt McCauley --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Howard Spivey" To: Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 17:14:37 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Grandmaster, etc. Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "Kwanjang-nim is, of course, not really a martial arts title. It has a far more generic and broad use in Korea." Thanks Ray, that's consistent with what I've heard and read. One can be properly called "Kwan Jang Nim" in the martial arts without being a "Grandmaster". Basically means that one runs a school. btw, thanks Chris La Cava for your comments... I agree with you, "intention is everything". Or, as the SEC says about its financial reporting rules, "substance over form". Regards --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest