Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 08:20:20 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 12 #508 - 10 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2000 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. RE: Re: Probationary/Recomended? (Thomas Gordon) 2. Kicking combinations for sparring (Dragons81@aol.com) 3. Re: crisis in taekwondo (David Zapencki) 4. Class workbook template? (Erik Brann) 5. Recomended/decided ITF? (t.metzner1) 6. Kukkiwon Fraud (FRANK CLAY) 7. ATA and recommended ranks (C.Sears) 8. Curt's Model (FRANK CLAY) 9. Re: crisis in taekwondo (Tim) 10. Re: crisis in taekwondo (Ray) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Thomas Gordon" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: Probationary/Recomended? Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 22:41:01 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "LOL! It's the same thing! probationary? walks like a duck,talks like a duck....must be..respectfully, Jack" Mr. Jack, If you're going to poke fun while making premature and ill informed assumptions, don't do so under the guise with such a closing as "respectfully." If you'll bother to read my post to Master James, you'll see that we do things quiet a bit differently than the ATA organization. Thomas Gordon Florida --__--__-- Message: 2 From: Dragons81@aol.com Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 05:27:14 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Kicking combinations for sparring Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Earlier this month I helped teach a karate class kicking techniques I learned from Tae Kwon Do. Since mainly I am a defensive fighter I focused on two defensive kicks, the spinning back kick and the retreating roundhouse kick. The bulk of the class was devoted to the students pairing up in closed stance. The offensive side attacked with either a front or rear leg roundhouse kick and the defensive side responded with the spinning back kick if attacked with the front leg or the retreating roundhouse if attacked from the rear leg. I like these reactionary drills but have run into a problem now. They want me to come back next week. For that class I was thinking of going over two offensive kicks, however by their nature instead of responding to an opponants attack you have to make your own oppening. This is where I need your help. I haven't decided which two kicks to focus on, but if you could help me with partner setup drills that create an opening it would be a tremendous help. What are some good techniques for: Hook kick (front leg, rear leg, and spinning) Double roundhouse kick (starting with front leg or rear leg) 360 roundhouse kick Also be sure to specify whether the technique is practiced in closed or open stance. For example: Spinning hook kick, closed stance right leg foreward: attack with front leg roundhouse kick to the stomach, when opponant backs up, attack with left foot spinning hook kick to the head. Thank you! --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 07:49:36 -0600 From: David Zapencki To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] crisis in taekwondo Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net So what you're saying is that, let's say, you start "Tim Collatz's Fine Jewelry Company" and you sell only the highest quality diamonds to the public. You have several stores in many states. However, other people (criminals) start selling cubic zirconias out on the street for $1000 each, claiming that they are Tim Collatz fine diamonds. You have nothing to do with these people being cheated, but you would reimburse their money anyway? It wouldn't be very long until you were bankrupt. That's what you are saying about the Kukkiwan and USTU (now USA Taekwondo). How in your wildest imagination can you envision that these organizations should be responsible for the actions of thieves not under their control? Dave tim collatz wrote: >The Kukkiwon a well respected and well run organization? I really don't >think so. I usually don't post here, usually don't have much to say.( Do >enjoy the posts and learn a lot though). But, after being cheated out of >4 years of hard work, I feel I should say something. I'm ready to test >for my black belt but my instructor sits in jail ( I refuse to call him >by the title of master anymore, and he is no longer my instructor). He >got into gambling, lost his house, got divorced (or is in the process), >attacked his wife, cheated his students out of money (people tested, but >no certificates), and now sits in jail. The bad part is that my story is >nothing compared to others. The new owner of the school ( sold to him >before all of this took place) was a student of this particular "master" >for quite some time. This new instructor is a great guy, 25 years >old,(I'm 45 so I've been around a bit) new father, and just graduated >with a B.S. degree in physical education. Great motivator. Any way, his >situation is very appalling due to the fact that he was basically cheated >out of $500 for testing for 3rd dan. It's really sad when you take into >consideration the fact that he grew up with this "masters" sons and were >good friends with the intire family, they actually lived right across the >street from each other. So, back to the Kukkiwon. Why aren't they >responsible for helping people out that have been cheated. Even the USTU, >of which we were members, don't feel any responsiblity to help out. Other >schools around the area basically say to test again and pay again! Sorry >people, but this isn't living up to the tenents and the "Spirit of the >Eight Manners" of taekwondo taught by most schools. To me it looks like a >policy of do as I teach, not what I do. I think if the Kukkiwon and >USTU were upstanding organizations they would look into this matter and >help the people that have been cheated. The only thing I'm hearing is " >give us more money and test again". > >Tim Collatz > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >Search, shop, and browse smarter using tabs with the MSN Search >Toolbar-FREE! >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2000 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Erik Brann" To: Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 09:18:53 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Class workbook template? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hey folks. I am embarking on my first gig teaching class on my own. One thing I want to do is create a set of workbooks that I can hand out to my students for free. I have Adobe InDesign, Microsoft Word and QuarkXpress 6.1. Does any of you have a blank template I could use to build my course manuals/workbooks? My school has no formal curriculum so this would be the first time we actually put something out to our students. Could anyone help? Thanks, Erik Brann --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "t.metzner1" To: Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 10:11:26 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Recomended/decided ITF? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I have been training under Grandmaster Hwang and Master Oulundsen for 20 years. We train under ITF. The first test is from white to yellow doing Chonji tul. We do not do four direction block and punch as some some do for yellow belt. We skip one level there and add it on at the end and call that rank recommneded black. So we don't add a level, we substitute. The test fee is the same from yellow through recommended black I must also add that this test fee has only gone up once in my 20 years from $30 to $35 and that all tests are conducted by Grandmaster Hwang. I consider that a bargain. Tom Metzner --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "FRANK CLAY" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 09:10:00 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Kukkiwon Fraud Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sid, We talked about this briefly during email and I think you did a great job. In retrospect, I think the problem may be bigger than that. For example, there are people in Hapkido who have gone to a couple of events and ended up garnering themselves a rank they have not earned and then propogate second rate Hapkido. At least one of them have a kwan name not issued by the kwans founder and mislead the public as to the meaning of their riaght (or lack thereof) to use the name. There are also many people out there who simply abuse students by selling their own school rank, ji kwan rank if you will, instead of bon kwan and charge top dollar from people they don't train with on a regular basis. What we are seeing is a commercialization of our arts and skills and conmen taking advantage of either our lethargy or our need to progress for the security of our schools and families. Frank --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 09:13:08 -0600 From: "C.Sears" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] ATA and recommended ranks Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Truth to tell, I'm getting more than a little tired of hearing the words "scam" and "ripoff" used in conjunction with the ATA and the recommended Black Belt rank. That ranking system has been in place from day one in the ATA. May I suggest that folks bother to learn something about it before commenting on it? The recommended rank at First Degree is a transition from being a colored belt to being a Black Belt. They wear a red/black belt to denote this. During this time, they are "studying for the finals", so to speak. It is a time of review and increased effort, maing sure that they are ready for their testing. Another analogy is that the runner is seeing the finish line and it's that last "kick" in the race. Same for Second Degree. The recommended rank is used to prepare the student for becoming an advanced rank. We all are familiar with the statistics about how few students go beyond First Degree, I don't need to repeat them. At Second Degree in ATA, things get a lot harder for a Black Belt. It's the last "student" rank; after that, the student has to make the decision and committment to a leadership role. During their time as 2BR, the student again is "studying for the finals" in one aspect, but they also start training with new weapons. The testing fee is nominal for both the recommended ranks. It pretty much covers the cost of the new belt for the decided rank and testing expenses. Now, having said that: do people gouge on the testing fees? I'm sure some instructors do. In any large group, you will have a bell curve. In ATA, I like to think that it is a skewed curve, showing a few terrific instructors, a large number of excellent instructors, the majority as good instructors, and the unfortunate tail end group that are not good instructors. I used to base this curve solely on the individual's ability to teach, but lately I've had to start factoring in their business practices as well, and I'm seeing a hard shift the wrong way in the bell curve as more people start using MASS or other models that are unethical. That, to me, overrides their teaching ability and I frankly am saddened by what is happening along those lines. My $0.02 worth... Chuck Sears > From: Beungood8@aol.com > Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 14:18:20 EST > To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Recomended/decided ITF? > Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > > I was in an off shoot of the ITF (World Martial Arts Association /Sang > Kyu Shim) and there was no "recommended" and "decided" Blackbelts. > You were either recommended to test and tested and earned it or you > were not allowed to test. And there was none of this revocation of > Blackbelts either. I think this business is just that ,a scam to > make money and is what gives this community a bad name and > reputation. FWIW --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "FRANK CLAY" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 09:14:08 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Curt's Model Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Curt, Your mode is similar to the one I came up with. We tested, paid and continued wearing our red belt/black stripes until the awarding of our actual dan rank. This applied for all our dank ranks. We had to wait six months for the new rank to be presented. Then, we removed our old belt and our master tied on the new. Frank --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Tim" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] crisis in taekwondo Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 10:20:39 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I recently saw a Kukikwan certificate that was presented to a young man who just obtained his 1 st dan. I was confused because the certificate said poom. Is this what the Kukikwan calls 1st dan or what is the deal??? Thanks, Tim ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Zapencki" To: Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2005 8:49 AM Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] crisis in taekwondo > So what you're saying is that, let's say, you start "Tim Collatz's Fine > Jewelry Company" and you sell only the highest quality diamonds to the > public. You have several stores in many states. However, other people > (criminals) start selling cubic zirconias out on the street for $1000 > each, claiming that they are Tim Collatz fine diamonds. You have nothing > to do with these people being cheated, but you would reimburse their money > anyway? It wouldn't be very long until you were bankrupt. That's what > you are saying about the Kukkiwan and USTU (now USA Taekwondo). How in > your wildest imagination can you envision that these organizations should > be responsible for the actions of thieves not under their control? > Dave > > tim collatz wrote: > >>The Kukkiwon a well respected and well run organization? I really don't >>think so. I usually don't post here, usually don't have much to say.( Do >>enjoy the posts and learn a lot though). But, after being cheated out of >>4 years of hard work, I feel I should say something. I'm ready to test >>for my black belt but my instructor sits in jail ( I refuse to call him >>by the title of master anymore, and he is no longer my instructor). He >>got into gambling, lost his house, got divorced (or is in the process), >>attacked his wife, cheated his students out of money (people tested, but >>no certificates), and now sits in jail. The bad part is that my story is >>nothing compared to others. The new owner of the school ( sold to him >>before all of this took place) was a student of this particular "master" >>for quite some time. This new instructor is a great guy, 25 years >>old,(I'm 45 so I've been around a bit) new father, and just graduated >>with a B.S. degree in physical education. Great motivator. Any way, his >>situation is very appalling due to the fact that he was basically cheated >>out of $500 for testing for 3rd dan. It's really sad when you take into >>consideration the fact that he grew up with this "masters" sons and were >>good friends with the intire family, they actually lived right across the >>street from each other. So, back to the Kukkiwon. Why aren't they >>responsible for helping people out that have been cheated. Even the USTU, >>of which we were members, don't feel any responsiblity to help out. Other >>schools around the area basically say to test again and pay again! Sorry >>people, but this isn't living up to the tenents and the "Spirit of the >>Eight Manners" of taekwondo taught by most schools. To me it looks like a >>policy of do as I teach, not what I do. I think if the Kukkiwon and >>USTU were upstanding organizations they would look into this matter and >>help the people that have been cheated. The only thing I'm hearing is " >>give us more money and test again". >> >>Tim Collatz >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >>Search, shop, and browse smarter using tabs with the MSN Search >>Toolbar-FREE! >>_______________________________________________ >>The_Dojang mailing list, 2000 members >>The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >>Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >>Standard disclaimers apply >>http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2000 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 10 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] crisis in taekwondo To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 08:12:25 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > I recently saw a Kukikwan certificate that was presented to a young man who > just obtained his 1 st dan. I was confused because the certificate said > poom. Is this what the Kukikwan calls 1st dan or what is the deal??? Poom is a junior black belt or child black belt, i.e. under the age of 15. Pooms can convert (retest) to Dans once they are of age. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com P.S. One thing that I like about the Kukkiwon is that they are open about the cost of a Dan/Poom cert. If you go to their website you will see the fee schedule clearly posted for all to see: Kukkiwon (WTF) Dan/Poom Fee Schedule ____________________________________ 1st Dan/Poom $70 2nd Dan/Poom $90 3rd Dan/Poom $120 4th Dan $150 5th Dan $300 6th Dan $350 7th Dan $450 --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest