Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 21:29:21 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 12 #509 - 11 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,100 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: crisis in taekwondo (Ray) 2. Re: kukkiwon rip-offs (sidtkd@aol.com) 3. Re: What to do if ripped off. (sidtkd@aol.com) 4. Poom vs Dan (FRANK CLAY) 5. Kukkiwon, well run? (FRANK CLAY) 6. sorry to the list "ATA" (howard@one.net) 7. Misc Posts (Bruce Sims) 8. No Formal Corriculum Teaching (Richard Tomlinson) 9. Kukkiwon Issues (Bruce Sims) 10. New Year's Eve in Seoul (Ray Terry) 11. crisis (tim collatz) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] crisis in taekwondo To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 08:25:04 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Correction... > Kukkiwon (WTF) Dan/Poom Fee Schedule > ____________________________________ > > 1st Dan/Poom $70 > 2nd Dan/Poom $90 > 3rd Dan/Poom $120 > 4th Dan/Poom $150 > 5th Dan $300 > 6th Dan $350 > 7th Dan $450 There is also a 4th Poom. Age there is under 18. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 12:02:20 -0500 From: sidtkd@aol.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: kukkiwon rip-offs Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Tim and Frank both make great points and my hat is off to Frank Clay as usual! The bottom line for me personally is this. Martial arts need an oversight agency. Hopefully we can find the back bone to self-police ourselves and do something about these low-life degenerate scum buckets that parade as "Masters". This bull crap has to end once and for all. We've gotten to a point where everyone either has been ripped off or certainly knows people that have been ripped off. When I wrote to a particular fat slob in the south that sells phony dan certificates in tkd and hapkido, the pig had the temerity to make insulting comments about my mother and family. Guess what...bring it!!!!! It would have to take a dim mok strike to my temples to stop me. I will continue to expose these guys and I am so grateful that magazines are willing to publish what I write. Bring honesty to martial arts. Not again...but for the first time because I don't think this was ever a honest arena! Sid --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 12:08:51 -0500 From: sidtkd@aol.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: What to do if ripped off. Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Tim, don't just pay again and test again. Sue the the piece of drap that ripped you off in Small Claims court and collect you money back as I did. Then go to USA Taekwondo, AAU or the Taekwondo Won and get your kukkiwon from a reliable source. I will never test with a master again when I know these agencies exist. By the way, my second dan cost $125 and I got it in four weeks. I send a copy of the dan, and copy of the check I got refunded from the court to my ex-master every month!!! Now...let him sue ME for harassment! Sid --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "FRANK CLAY" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 11:37:04 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Poom vs Dan Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dan is a yudanja - an adult black belt. A poom is a yupoomja and wears a belt that is half red/half black. It represents someone who has trained long enough to be a black belt and has the knowledge of a black belt but is aimed at children. This is a junior black belt. So if someone received a poom instead of a dan, the first question you should ask is age. For a list of promotion guidelines, including age requirements, I suggest visiting www.kukkiwon.org. Hope this helps. Also, www.USTW.org follows the same general guidelines so if you can't find them there you may find them on the USTW site. Frank --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "FRANK CLAY" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 11:45:31 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Kukkiwon, well run? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Tim, You said that you disagree that Kukkiwon is well organized and well run. I think I must disagree on this point. For the last six years of so, I have worked with Fortune 100 and 500 pharmaceutical/biotech and medical device companies. Kukkiwon is by far more organized than are some of these organizations. Inevitably when you are dealing with as many people world wide as is the Kukkiwon, there are likely to be bumps in the road. They provide a service and they do rather well with that service. The issue is that the service is provided to schools and some of those middle men may be shall we say, less than sincere. I personally think that there may be some bias towards Koreans at Kukkiwon and for that reason have elected to be a part of the US Taekwondo Won. But I digress... the point is that Kukkiwon has to deal with the issuance of several million certificates in the United States alone. When you start doing the numbers, it becomes apparent that they do in fact do a good job although not everyone is pleased. They have policies in place that are intended to establish a standard and enforce that standard, protect Kukkiwon and the sport of Taekwondo and try to protect students. That is why they openly provide their fee structure. I am not a fan of Kukkiwon so don't get me wrong. That being said, you should not condemn them for taking a little longer with a dan certificate or some such. They do work very hard and when you consider the sheer volume of work they do with the amount of staff they have on hand, they should be considered miracle workers. Just my .02, Frank --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 13:03:06 -0500 (EST) From: howard@one.net To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] sorry to the list "ATA" Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I'm not sure if my last message went out ot not. My computer just had a weared blink!! If not I'll repost after seeing the last diguest. Subject: ATA Howard Wilson 4th Deg. Certified Instructor "retired" ATA --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 10:16:58 -0800 (PST) From: Bruce Sims To: Ray Terry Subject: [The_Dojang] Misc Posts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net OK, Maybe its just me, but I am getting a little concerned about some of whats flying back and forth on this forum of late. I think the point that caught me eye first was the report about the KUKKIWON and fake certificates. Now my understanding of the Kukkiwon is admittedly small but I have been given to believe that they were one of the truly “big guns” in the TKD world. If they can’t step in and take a hand in sorting out the misuse of their credentials , just who is suppose to do it? In a sort of related way I was taken aback by the comment about the use of kwan names (I think Frank made a comment). I have been talking about this for a little while now and am still trying to figure out whether people are going to do something about this or not? Its not so much that people will use a Korean-sounding name to authenticity to what they are doing, that’s not my point. Folks here in the West have been doing that for years with Ryu-this and Soke-that, Sifu-this and Kwoon-that. What I am talking about is someone actually abiding by some sort of code or belief system. Recently some folks over on HAKIDOFORUM have been talking about Ji Han Jae’s efforts at promoting a more ethical or philosophical approach to SIN MU Hapkido. It does my heart good to know that such leaders are making this effort. But now, what about the institution? Lastly, there is the question of “money-grubbing”. I think people know how I feel about commerce in the KMA in the first place so I am not going to go there. What I am not hearing is any sort of concerted effort to building a NON-COMMERCIAL effort to counter-balance those groups which will only act in the name of KMA when there is a profit to be had. Thoughts? Comments? Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Richard Tomlinson" To: Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 15:34:44 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] No Formal Corriculum Teaching Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net What style of Martial Arts is being taught in your school and for how long? In order to formulate a teaching corriculum, one teaches from what they have learned from another instructor. Is this a new school? sandy --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 15:30:31 -0800 (PST) From: Bruce Sims To: Ray Terry Subject: [The_Dojang] Kukkiwon Issues Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net ".....We talked about this briefly during email and I think you did a great job. In retrospect, I think the problem may be bigger than that. For example, there are people in Hapkido who have gone to a couple of events and ended up garnering themselves a rank they have not earned and then propogate second rate Hapkido. At least one of them have a kwan name not issued by the kwans founder and mislead the public as to the meaning of their riaght (or lack thereof) to use the name. There are also many people out there who simply abuse students by selling their own school rank, ji kwan rank if you will, instead of bon kwan and charge top dollar from people they don't train with on a regular basis. What we are seeing is a commercialization of our arts and skills and con-men taking advantage of either our lethargy or our need to progress for the security of our schools and families....." I was pretty tickled by your post. Over the last few years I have raised exactly the same issues and plenty more. Hope you have more success at getting answers than have I. However, if it will save you any time and effort here are a couple of freebies. a.) The circumstances exist because the way you find the KMA and Hapkido world is the way people want it. The standard agreement among practitioners is "don't 'out' my skeletons and I won't 'out' yours". b.) People in the Hapkido community would rather rag on each other than actually "do" anything. For example, the guy who went to small claims court about his Kukkiwon certs--- and won--- got no questions and no kudo-s for what he did. BTW: if you ever want to kill a forum fast all you have to do is either 1.) forbid people to rag on each other or 2.) start pressing people to become proactive in a solution. However, don't be surprised if you run square into Point A. c.) People in the Hapkido community talk "cheerleader-speak"--- an idealized form of expression that long on lofty ideology and short on action (See: Point B). Behaviorally, the key points to participation and and advancement through the Hapkido hierarchy are three: 1.) Easy 2.) Quick 3.) Cheap. Oh, and all that crap about developing Character? Don't get sucked into it. Fact is that on any given day you can find 5th, 6th and even 7th dans working their weight in Character-Assasination and rumor-mongoring as bitterly as any group of coffee-swilling biddies at a church social. Wish this was a prettier trio of points, but unfortunately its the truth and it exists because people want it this way. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 18:32:55 -0800 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] New Year's Eve in Seoul Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net On New Year's Eve in New York, people watch a gigantic, shimmering apple drop 70 feet to reach its destination at precisely midnight. In Barcelona, citizens pop the first of 12 grapes into their mouths when the clock strikes midnight, and eat the rest at every following chime. Just like folks in other parts of the world, Koreans for centuries have been celebrating the New Year in their own special way. The following are a few events that will help you get into the spirit of the new year. The Posingak Bell Ringing Ceremony Thousands of people will listen to the magnificent sound of the Posingak Bell ringing in the new year in Chongno, downtown Seoul on the New Yea's Eve. Mayor Lee Myung-bak and 15 distinguished guests including musicians, students and an actress will strike the Posingak Bell 33 times at midnight. The 33 strikes symbolize the 33 freedom fighters that fought for the nation's liberation from Japan on March. 1, 1919. The number is also believed to be lucky in Korea. At this point, some may be wondering _ if the Posingak Bell is in Chongno then what is it displayed at the National Museum of Korea in Yongsan? At the annual Mt. Taebaek Sunrise Festival, visitors who want to see the first sunrise from above can enjoy a hike up the beautiful Mt. Taebaek and take in the breathtaking scenery that can be viewed at its crest. The original Posingak Bell, which was made in 1397 at the command of the Choson Kingdom's founding father King Taejo and designated National Treasure No.2 in 1963, is what is housed in the Yongsan museum. The one downtown is a replica. The origin of the ritual dates back to Choson Kingdom times when the bell ringing was carried out twice on New Year's Day _ 33 times at 4 a.m. and 28 times at 10 p.m. Those who aren't able to make the trip out to the Posingak Pavilion can watch the event at home as all the major networks broadcast the event live. For those who attend the event but can't get through the crowd, huge outdoor screens on nearby buildings will provide a close-up view. Seoul City expects some 100,000 people to flock to the Chongno area on New Year's Eve. Roads in the Chongno and neighboring Anguk-dong area will be closed to traffic. Subways will extend operating hours to 2 a.m. However, no stops will be made Chongak Station for safety reasons. Sunrise Festivals Koreans bid farewell to the old year and welcome the new year by watching the sunrise with loved ones. A favorite pastime, many head to the coast or the mountains to see the first sun rising. Samchok City, under the slogan ``New Year, New Hope! An Energetic New Start!'' will hold its famous annual sunrise festival that starts on new year's eve. Following a night of live performances, festival goers will gather on the beach to watch as the first sun of 2006 rises. A concert featuring local musicians and fireworks follows the main event. For more information call (033) 570-3844 or visit www.samcheok.gangwon.kr. Kyongpo Beach will be hosting festivities that start at 10 p.m. Various events like karaoke night and a mini rock concert featuring popular bands will lead up the countdown to 2006. Following a sunrise festival, the event will come to an end with a performance by K-pop stars Suh Ji-young, Rich and more. Another popular spot is Chuam Beach in Tonghae, Kangwon Province as the city claims it is the first place in the country on which the sun sheds light. The 2005 Tonghae Sunrise Festival will be held from 10 p.m., Dec. 31 throughout 8 a.m. the next day. One of the main attractions to this event is the lighting of 33 firecrackers 10 seconds before the clock strikes 12. The next morning, after sunrise, special events like boat parades, balloon demonstrations and the serving of free ttogguk (rice cake soup) will delight festival goers. The southern port city of Pusan also offers its own share of events to usher in the New Year. Musical performances and parades will unfold on the famous Haeundae Beach after the crowd has watched the sunrise. Pusan residents can also head to Tataepo to watch the sunrise, as it too boasts fantastic scenery. If you are more of a mountain person, try Mt. Taebaek's Hwangji Lake, where breathtaking scenes can be witnessed. A sunset festival is held on Dec. 31 while sunrise festival is held the following morning. An early-morning hike that starts at the foot of mountain at 3 a.m. finishes at 7 a.m. at the lakeshore in time for the sunrise. But one doesn't necessarily need to head as far away as Kyongsang or Kangwon Province for the year's first sunrise. District offices around Seoul are also organizing events that will take place on the top of Mt. Unbong in Songdong-gu, Mt. Acha in Kwangjin-gu, Mt. Umyon in Socho-gu and Mt. Tobong in Tobong-gu. Watching the sunrise from the Han River cruise boat is another special way of spending the morning. Departing at Youido docks the boat will take passengers on an hour and a half long ride during which they can appreciate both the sunrise and a musical performance by a local percussion troupe --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "tim collatz" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 23:07:09 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] crisis Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Dave, I see where you are coming from, but that would be a whole different situation. I would stand behind anything that was sold if one of my representatives cheated someone (it's the only honorable thing to do). In the situation of the Kukkiwon or USTU these "masters" are representatives of their organizations, not just people falsely claiming to be something they are not. In my particular case this individual was a 7th dan and an internationla referee. It would not hurt either organization very much financially if they would help the people whom were cheated by waiving any additional testing fees. In fact, it would be just "plain good business". The businesses that stand behind their product and their people are the ones that do well financially. If I were an owner of a taekwondo school and I heard of someone being cheated by another school I would go out of my way to make things right. I would certainly let that person test for free, even if it meant giving up a few hours of my time with no compensation. Taekwondo is not just a fighting art, it's a way of life. That's what attracted me to the sport (sport isn't really a good word, it's so much more). While some people teach honesty and integrity, other people actually live it. Tim ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Download today's top songs at MSN Music from artists like U2, Eminem, & Kelly Clarkson --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest