Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2006 17:00:20 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 13 #1 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,100 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: False Kukkiwon Certifcates (blueknightpi@att.net) 2. Re: crisis (David Zapencki) 3. Re: crisis (David Zapencki) 4. Oversight? (Bruce Sims) 5. Re: Re: False Kukkiwon Certifcates (Ray) 6. RE: Recomended/decided ITF? (Thomas Gordon) 7. RE: ATA and recommended ranks (Thomas Gordon) 8. RE: RE: Merry Christmas (PETER.MCDONALDSMITH@london-fire.gov.uk) 9. Re: Kicking combinations for sparring (Tony McDonald) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: blueknightpi@att.net To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2006 15:39:27 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: False Kukkiwon Certifcates Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Just another view on this....If someone sells fake GE Toasters or pirate copies of King Kong (whenever it comes out on DVD and VHS) you can bet there would be enforecment and legal action taken against the frauds by the people who owned those trademarks and copyrights. Now I agree that the companies involved wouldn't pay refunds to the injured consumers who bought those make believe items, however the consumers would expect and get a response when the complained that htey had been ripped off. If the Kukkiwon wants to protect its reputation it needs to act against thee cheats and put them out of business whether they are complete con artists or kukkiwon certified masaters who have just found a get rich quick scheme. It also could/should take aproactive stance to at least a random spot chgeck as to whether large TKD schools are legit in their issuance of certificates...that would go a long ways towards stopping this pratice....as the guy who was a long time ago in charge of some $200,000,000 worth of GE small appliance volume...I guarantee you that it is really hard to locate a fake GE Toaster. Vic Cushing --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2006 09:16:13 -0600 From: David Zapencki To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] crisis Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Again, I think it would depend on how "representative" these "masters" are of the organizations. If they are actually employees of the USTU or AAU then I would say that, yes, the organizations are responsible and should do whatever it takes to correct the situation. I think in all probability though, they were simply members and not under the direct control of the kukkiwan or other organizations. Yes, he may have been a 7th Dan and a member of the kukkiwan, but I'm sure he was not acting under their direction when he did the things that you are saying he did. I agree that it would be super if someone in any of the above organizations stepped up and helped out, I'm just saying that I don't believe they are obligated, legally or even perhaps morally to do so... Dave tim collatz wrote: >Hi Dave, > >I see where you are coming from, but that would be a whole different >situation. I would stand behind anything that was sold if one of my >representatives cheated someone (it's the only honorable thing to do). In >the situation of the Kukkiwon or USTU these "masters" are representatives >of their organizations, not just people falsely claiming to be something >they are not. In my particular case this individual was a 7th dan and an >internationla referee. It would not hurt either organization very much >financially if they would help the people whom were cheated by waiving >any additional testing fees. In fact, it would be just "plain good >business". The businesses that stand behind their product and their >people are the ones that do well financially. If I were an owner of a >taekwondo school and I heard of someone being cheated by another school I >would go out of my way to make things right. I would certainly let that >person test for free, even if it meant giving up a few hours of my time >with no compensation. Taekwondo is not just a fighting art, it's a way of >life. That's what attracted me to the sport (sport isn't really a good >word, it's so much more). While some people teach honesty and integrity, >other people actually live it. > >Tim > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >Download today's top songs at MSN Music from artists like U2, Eminem, & >Kelly Clarkson >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2006 09:24:51 -0600 From: David Zapencki To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] crisis Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net By the way, I forgot to ask... Has anyone tried to contact this master's master? Can it be resolved with his help? Dave tim collatz wrote: >Hi Dave, > >I see where you are coming from, but that would be a whole different >situation. I would stand behind anything that was sold if one of my >representatives cheated someone (it's the only honorable thing to do). In >the situation of the Kukkiwon or USTU these "masters" are representatives >of their organizations, not just people falsely claiming to be something >they are not. In my particular case this individual was a 7th dan and an >internationla referee. It would not hurt either organization very much >financially if they would help the people whom were cheated by waiving >any additional testing fees. In fact, it would be just "plain good >business". The businesses that stand behind their product and their >people are the ones that do well financially. If I were an owner of a >taekwondo school and I heard of someone being cheated by another school I >would go out of my way to make things right. I would certainly let that >person test for free, even if it meant giving up a few hours of my time >with no compensation. Taekwondo is not just a fighting art, it's a way of >life. That's what attracted me to the sport (sport isn't really a good >word, it's so much more). While some people teach honesty and integrity, >other people actually live it. > >Tim > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >Download today's top songs at MSN Music from artists like U2, Eminem, & >Kelly Clarkson >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2006 08:29:00 -0800 (PST) From: Bruce Sims To: Ray Terry Subject: [The_Dojang] Oversight? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "....Martial arts need an oversight agency...." Dear Sid: Trust me--- I truely sympathize with your post. If you do a search on DD you will find at least two major discussions regarding oversight both by MA agencies as well as State or Federal government agencies. I nboth discussions the deliberations went nowhere and I think the recent matter posted about the KUKKIWON was a good example of why. At the risk of doing any unintentional dis-ing to other KMA my feelings have been that the "image" of the KMA organizations is not everything that is represented to the World. For instance, in the case of the "World Hapkido Federation" and the "World Hapkido Association" there is some suggestion of organizations and accountability which simply is not there. These "organizations" are, in fact, "sole proprietorships" and there is little if any policing that goes on. The same goes for the KUKKIWON, ITF and WTF. The names suggest authority which does not always hold up well under close scrutiny. Not long ago John (Johnson) pointed out that the KHF, arguably one of the largest (if not THE largest) Hapkido organizations had only a single office and one person to clear their International correspondence. The circumstances that lead to this revelation (Re: "Mr. FF") in fact were facilitated by this limitation. However, this is not the only problem. OTOH there is the matter of practitioners submitting to a larger authority and the fact is, Sid, practitioners simply don't want to do this. The Hapkido arts are a long, slow and arduous journey and especially in America people want things quick, fast and cheap. These are not the sorts of people who will submit to oversight. FWIW. Thoughts? Comments? Best Wishes, Bruce __________________________________ Yahoo! for Good - Make a difference this year. http://brand.yahoo.com/cybergivingweek2005/ --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: False Kukkiwon Certifcates To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2006 10:22:38 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > If the Kukkiwon wants to protect its reputation it needs to act against > the cheats and put them out of business whether they are complete con > artists or kukkiwon certified masaters who have just found a get rich > quick scheme. Perhaps surprisingly, just a couple hundred yards from the Kukkiwon itself (down at the bottom of the hill) is a small martial arts supply store. One of the many things sold in this shop is a blank cert that is pretty much a copy of a blank Kukkiwon dan cert. All one needs to do is buy a batch of these, fill out, -forge- and sell. (on eBay?) FWIW Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Thomas Gordon" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Recomended/decided ITF? Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2006 14:08:59 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Metzner, For $35, you got a good deal with a lower ranking judge. With (now) Master Oulundsen and Grand Master Hwang, it's an unbelievable deal you got! We had Grand Master Hwang down a few weekends ago for a seminar and testing. The man is phenomenal. It was a special time for us with our 13 year old testing for 1st degree after four years of training. On the testing panel were my previous instructors with ATA fifth degree Wesley Wing and independent sixth degree Terri Poff. Grand Master Hwang was the center judge and we had our school's three primary instructors also on the panel for a total of six judges. Our students got spoiled this year with two great seminars (Grandmaster Timmerman had come down in August). Pictures of our testing, seminar, parade, promotions/Christmas Party are at: http://www.gordonmartialarts.com/picture2005/picture120205testing.htm http://www.gordonmartialarts.com/picture2005/picture120205testing-part2. htm http://www.gordonmartialarts.com/picture2005/picture120305seminar.htm http://www.gordonmartialarts.com/picture2005/picture120305parade.htm http://www.gordonmartialarts.com/picture2005/picture120305promotions.htm http://www.gordonmartialarts.com/picture2005/picture120305promotions-par t2.htm Even though $35 is way underpriced in today's economy, that's what we charge up to our upper belts when they start breaking boards. We charge an extra $5 to help cover the boards. Use $30 testing fee for 1985 and it shows today's cost should be $50+ http://www.westegg.com/inflation/ Last time we were in CT you were instructing the referee course. My bride and I will be in Connecticut for Grand Master Hwang and Master Oulundsen's seminar. I don't know what I was thinking to schedule a trip to COLD country in January. LOL! See ya then! Thomas Gordon Florida --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Thomas Gordon" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] ATA and recommended ranks Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2006 14:08:59 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Sears, With due respect, this thread was heavily contributed to by two former ATA certified instructors and school/club owners being Dante James and myself. I have a firm grasp on why ATA does certain things. And I also qualified most of my comments with "today's modern MASS ATA school" which, by reading your closing, I know you can appreciate my dissention. Take away the money issue and curriculum questions and I think a lot of this thread really comes down to semantics. I call it probationary, you call it recommended, so-n-so calls it red or brown belt. Whatever. If a student is being charged for multiple testings without (real) change in material OR being charged a fairly stiff testing fee, then yes, I think this is wrong. For ATA, recommended 1st degree did cost me $35. However, I paid $120ish for both 2R and 2D for a total of $240-250. I didn't get new curriculum either time. And I see absolutely no point in 2R. Just charge me $200-250 and let me test when I'm ready instead of the silly extra testing. When I was in ATA, when discussing school owners, I felt there were a few bad apples in the bunch. As I prepared to leave, it appeared to me that the saying of "one bad apple" was coming to fruition. Many "old timers" are leaving ATA. That wouldn't mean much if they were retiring but they aren't, they are going to other organizations. Even though I still slobber through a lot of ITF curriculum, I haven't had to apologize for wearing their uniform. How many times did I say, "Not all ATA schools are like that...." when I had an ATA school? It got old, real old. I wish you the best for 2006! Thomas Gordon Florida --__--__-- Message: 8 Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] RE: Merry Christmas Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2006 20:39:23 -0000 From: To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Yes my friend I am just under 35 and you really did make me laugh. In fact you were so funny that, for a moment, you sounded British! Believe me that's a compliment coming from a British person. I will check out the web site as soon as I get home. -----Original Message----- From: Stovall, Craig [mailto:CStovall@nucorar.com] Sent: 27 December 2005 20:36 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Merry Christmas <<>> Oh, they're still around. Check out their official website. www.guardianangels.org Don't know about their training. I think I have an old 'Black Belt' somewhere with an article about the GA's. I'll see if I can dig it up sometime, but I seem to remember that they were a pretty mixed bag. I don't think MA training was a requisite, but it was absolutely mandatory that you own a red beret, black parachute pants, fingerless leather gloves, and at least one feathered earring. All I know is that if I were Emperor of the Universe (which I should be) my first order of business would be to create a time capsule to preserve all remnants of the 1980's machismo pop culture. All of the Guardian Angels would be rounded up and placed into the capsule...along with the entire A-team, Hulk Hogan, digital recordings of Frank Stallone's songs, a director's cut of 'No Retreat, No Surrender', and Geraldo Rivera's mustache. P.S., if you are over the age of 35 then that post should have made you laugh. If not, then you either have no sense of humor, or you were strung out during the 80's on Pop Rocks and New Coke. Craig "Still Humming from the Egg Nog" Stovall _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2000 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang **************************************************************************** SMOKE ALARMS SAVE LIVES Go to London Fire at www.london-fire.gov.uk/firesafety This email is confidential to the addressee only. If you do not believe that you are the intended addressee, do not use, pass on or copy it in any way. If you have received it in error, please delete it immediately and telephone the supplied number, reversing the charges if necessary. --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Tony McDonald" To: "Dojang E-mailing List" Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Kicking combinations for sparring Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2006 15:53:40 -0800 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Here's my 2 cents about some techniques that I still use when I spar. For Double Roundhouse, one to the body (Front leg), then with the other to the head (Back Leg). If you land each kick, it will almost always catch your opponent off guard For 360 Roundhouse, I usually use this kick to close a gap between me and my opponent, ex. If there's a fair distance, 360 roundhouse (Doesn't land), then follow up as fast as possible with a back kick directly into chest. For Hook Kick, Just as your opponent starts the motion for a roundhouse with their back leg (Closed stance), Quickly a Back Hook Kick, while blocking the initial roundhouse with a low block ----- Original Message ----- From: Dragons81@aol.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2005 2:27 AM Subject: [The_Dojang] Kicking combinations for sparring Earlier this month I helped teach a karate class kicking techniques I learned from Tae Kwon Do. Since mainly I am a defensive fighter I focused on two defensive kicks, the spinning back kick and the retreating roundhouse kick. The bulk of the class was devoted to the students pairing up in closed stance. The offensive side attacked with either a front or rear leg roundhouse kick and the defensive side responded with the spinning back kick if attacked with the front leg or the retreating roundhouse if attacked from the rear leg. I like these reactionary drills but have run into a problem now. They want me to come back next week. For that class I was thinking of going over two offensive kicks, however by their nature instead of responding to an opponants attack you have to make your own oppening. This is where I need your help. I haven't decided which two kicks to focus on, but if you could help me with partner setup drills that create an opening it would be a tremendous help. What are some good techniques for: Hook kick (front leg, rear leg, and spinning) Double roundhouse kick (starting with front leg or rear leg) 360 roundhouse kick Also be sure to specify whether the technique is practiced in closed or open stance. For example: Spinning hook kick, closed stance right leg foreward: attack with front leg roundhouse kick to the stomach, when opponant backs up, attack with left foot spinning hook kick to the head. Thank you! _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2000 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest