Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 13:11:25 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 13 #48 - 11 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,100 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. UCLA TKD (Ray) 2. Gi, Dobok, Leather Jacket.... (Brooke Thomas) 3. Thanks Ray (Frank Clay) 4. RE: Moo Duk Kwan Information (Roberto Bonefont) 5. RE: More Moo Duk Kwan (Patch Info) (Dana Vaillancourt) 6. Re: By train from Seoul to Incheon (Ray) 7. RE: RE: More Moo Duk Kwan (Patch Info) (Erik Brann) 8. Re: Gi, Dobok, Leather Jacket.... (Ray) 9. RE: Gi or no Gi? (Stovall, Craig) 10. Gracie vs Hughes (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 11. RE: Gracie vs Hughes (Lehr, Sage) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Ray To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 20:57:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] UCLA TKD Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Forwarding... Greetings to the Sport Taekwondo Community: The UCLA Taekwondo Team and Head Coach Tim Thackrey would like to invite all serious sport taekwondo athletes to UCLA this Sunday, January 29, from 1-4pm in the John Wooden Center for a few hours of fighting. The first event was a great success, with over a half dozen former and current national team members (Luis Reyes, Heidi Gilbert, Cody Aguirre, Jason McEuin, Simona Hradil, Tim Thackrey) along with about 50 other aspiring athletes from some of the top schools in California. The format is simple. Come and be ready to fight as many times as you can. Most people last time got at least 20 different matches! The best part is, it's FREE! Just come on by and be ready to fight. The matches will be supervised by International Referee Dr. Misha Thackrey, but no score is kept. With multiple matches going on at once, the matches are still kept safe, even with such a high level of competition. We expect this event to be even better than the last one. Please bring full fighting equipment, including mouth pieces. Ages 14 and above, no beginners. Contact UCLA Taekwondo President Sean Yee: seanyee@ucla.edu for more info. Sunday, January 29 1-4pm The Blue Room @ the John Wooden Center UCLA --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 21:30:33 -0800 (PST) From: Brooke Thomas To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Gi, Dobok, Leather Jacket.... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net OK, I'll admit I'm ignorant here...so enlighten me. I get into a street fight wearing a thin leather jacket and the guy I'm fighting is wearing a tear-away T shirt. How can I use the jacket to my advantage? Can you give me some insight into the third hand thing you mentioned? Brooke Thomas --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Frank Clay" To: Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 23:35:00 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Thanks Ray Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Thanks Ray. I wasn't sure what to think. My first KJN was MDK but since we've all been petrified to use the name we weren't quite sure what to do. f. --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 01:34:44 -0500 From: Roberto Bonefont To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Moo Duk Kwan Information Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Best Regards to everyone, I'd like to address the question concerning the Moo Duk KwanT Patch. Some of this is my personal knowledge, so you can believe what you want. The earliest picture of the Founder, Kwan Jang Nim Hwang Kee, in the traditional midnight blue trim on his do bok that I have seen is the Inside Kung Fu issue of May 1975. On the cover, it shows the Founder of the Moo Duk KwanT wearing the blue trim and the Ko Dan Ja dee. >From a brief history lesson I personally received from the current Kwan Jang Nim and successor to the Korean and World Soo Bahk DoT Moo Duk KwanT, H.C. Hwang, the years 1953 through 1961 were known as a prime period of the Moo Duk KwanT because during those years several traditions were instituted by the Founder, such as the do bok trims in 1954, the 1st goodwill internationals in 1955 and the dan bon (belt number or pin number) system of seniority. I am not aware of any documentation that shows the trim ever to have been black, as it was not in keeping with the Founder's Moo Duk KwanT philosophy. Even the color photo of him on the 1975 Inside Kung Fu shows the patch on a blue and not black background. Now when I first started training in Moo Duk KwanT in the mid sixties, the instructor wore literally black belt with black trim. That may have been a carryover from many of the military who returned from overseas with black belts vs midnight blue belts and the easy recognition of a "black belt" vs a blue belt. You also have to keep in mind that the Moo Duk KwanT division did not occur until 1961 because of the 1961 military coup. When many Moo Duk KwanT instructors were under pressure by the Korean military to move toward Tae Kwon Do. The best suggestion I can give you concerning history of the patch, trim and other Moo Duk KwanT traditions is to pick up a copy of the Founder's book, The History of the Moo Duk KwanT, by Hwang Kee. I believe you can go to the U.S. Soo Bahk DoT Moo Duk KwanT federation website at www.soobahkdo.com and order that book plus others written by the Late Grandmaster Hwang Kee. I believe you can download an order form now from the website. I hope this information helps you. In Moo Do, Roberto Bonefont, Sr. Message: 2 From: "Erik Brann" To: , "'Tammy Cardilli'" Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 08:45:16 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] More Moo Duk Kwan (Patch Info) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi all. First of all, I would like to thank Mr. Burdick for the excellent article regarding origins of Tae Kwon Do. It is helping me solidify some information which I am teaching here in Maine. On to my question. I train in a Moo Duk Kwan style, and we use the Moo Duk Kwan patch on our dobok, however, our patch is gold on black rather than gold on midnight blue. I'm trying to find the symbolism of the black, and when this drift occurred. Our school is in process of developing a course curriculum in print form after many years of verbal tradition. I recognize that we have drifted away in certain areas but we are trying to get ourselves so we are giving correct information. Thanks for your help. Erik Brann --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Dana Vaillancourt" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 12:38:44 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: More Moo Duk Kwan (Patch Info) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net The gold and black patch that many people purchase in magazines is a Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan patch. I can remember many Mainiacs (Mainers) walking around with them and when I asked them who they took Tang Soo Do with, they gave me a disgusting look, even after I pointed out their patch said "Tang Soo." It is a fairly generic patch, but you are right, it is in black, not blue. There are very few generic Tae Kwon Do Moo Duk Kwan patches out there, one has a white background and sold out of one of the places in CA, perhaps Sang Moo Sa (I can't remember which). Dana PS: Eric, are you associated with the Camden school or the group up near Bangor associated with NH? > >Eric wrote:. > >On to my question. I train in a Moo Duk Kwan style, and we use the Moo Duk >Kwan patch on our dobok, however, our patch is gold on black rather than >gold on midnight blue. I'm trying to find the symbolism of the black, and >when this drift occurred. --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Ray To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 06:01:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: By train from Seoul to Incheon Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Forwarding... The 11th edition (1910) of the Encyclopedia Britannica gives a map of Korea (as Korea, not as part of Japan, and all place names in Korean) with the capital city clearly labelled in capital letters: SEOUL. In short, the name was in use and internationally known by 1910. FWIW, the name of Seoul during the occupation was Keijô (i.e. the Japanese pronunciation of the characters for Kyôngsông). Rob Provine --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Erik Brann" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] RE: More Moo Duk Kwan (Patch Info) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 09:02:40 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I am associated with the Camden/Rockland school. I am researching the linkage backwards from our Sabumnim to KJN Hwang Kee. This is a saga I have been polling the dojang digest for a few years -----Original Message----- From: Dana Vaillancourt [mailto:vailkorma@hotmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2006 7:39 AM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: More Moo Duk Kwan (Patch Info) The gold and black patch that many people purchase in magazines is a Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan patch. I can remember many Mainiacs (Mainers) walking around with them and when I asked them who they took Tang Soo Do with, they gave me a disgusting look, even after I pointed out their patch said "Tang Soo." It is a fairly generic patch, but you are right, it is in black, not blue. There are very few generic Tae Kwon Do Moo Duk Kwan patches out there, one has a white background and sold out of one of the places in CA, perhaps Sang Moo Sa (I can't remember which). Dana PS: Eric, are you associated with the Camden school or the group up near Bangor associated with NH? > >Eric wrote:. > >On to my question. I train in a Moo Duk Kwan style, and we use the Moo >Duk Kwan patch on our dobok, however, our patch is gold on black rather >than gold on midnight blue. I'm trying to find the symbolism of the >black, and when this drift occurred. _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Gi, Dobok, Leather Jacket.... To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 06:18:15 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > OK, I'll admit I'm ignorant here...so enlighten me. I > get into a street fight wearing a thin leather jacket > and the guy I'm fighting is wearing a tear-away T > shirt. How can I use the jacket to my advantage? Can > you give me some insight into the third hand thing you > mentioned? The original thread was about a UFC sport event, not a street fight. Things differ greatly between those two. Agreed? In a sport match you generally have lots of time and you don't have to worry about getting your head kicked in by your opponent's friends. Thus you have time to use the dobok to (1) help smother the other fellow as you lie on his face, (2) use it to grab hold of when you're going for a choke or other submission, (3) use it to "hold" an opponents arm or leg when going for a limb submission simply by the additional friction it provides. On #3 consider that in a sport event where both opponents are just in shorts you really have to get an arm-bar submission in fast and tight to make it work or the opponent can simply pull their arm out. When you are wearing a dobok the added friction provided by the dobok itself makes it much harder for them to pull their arm out. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 09:37:09 -0600 From: "Stovall, Craig" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Gi or no Gi? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <<>> That's pretty much the prevailing sentiment, and I also happen to subscribe to it. I sometimes grapple against a no gi opponent while wearing mine, and it ain't fun. It's all about the handles. By wearing the gi, I give them WAY more sweeping and posture breaking options. You also give them pretty much a full guard game by wearing the gi. They can play spider guard and you can't (at least it's hard to without the sleeves). Also, if you stand up in their guard they can still play an "old school" open guard game with all the nifty sweeps and turnovers that wouldn't usually be there in modern MMA or no go submission. They give up the sleeve chokes, but those are low percentage to begin with. Meanwhile, they've got your collars to hang onto all day long. Try to pass the guard while fighting off the collar chokes without their gi to offer any assistance in making the posture or controlling the legs. It'll make you wanna take up golf. Your arms also become more vulnerable. Easier to extend an arm when you have that sleeve to grab and pull. The sleeves also make it easier to climb the arms for armbars (plus the collars for security). The armbar/triangle/omoplata series seems to become more secure and easier to pull off when the gi is there. The main thing is that if you get your back against that cage against someone who's looking to tee off...you are screwed. All they have to do is get a secure collar handle with the free hand, take a half step back and start letting the bombs drop. That grabbing hand not only limits your movement but it also helps to "track" the shots. Not good. --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 12:45:57 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Gracie vs Hughes Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net The match up between these two fighters is historic. As for Matt He has a wresting advantage, and a stand up advantage. His strength advantage IMHO will not be an issue. Although Hughes is a much stronger man, Gracie has proven he can deal with stronger fighter. Ken Shamrock was stronger, Kimo was stronger They were not just stronger they were heavy. The weight of the fighter was something that he will not have to deal with in this fight. If the AC allows it I believe Gracie will use the GI. I am sure Matt Hughes is getting prepared and he has a strong camp, however if you believe Gracie is not going to come prepared you are living in the stars. Gracie and the whole family chalanged fighters from all disciplines for years before the UFC existed, I am sure Matt Hughes will not bring anything the Gracies have not seen. I think both are great fighters and deserve the respect they have earned. I still think it will go to the ground and Matt will be on top attempting the ground and pound. Hughes has learned some summission but submitting R. Gracie is not like summitting an average fighter and I don't think Hughes can do it. On the other hand I think Gracie can submit Hughes at any time. I don't think Hughes can cause gracie to tap either, He will have to KO him or break a bone. Matt will tap if put in a lock or choke. BJ Penn proved that. Just My Opinion JC --__--__-- Message: 11 Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Gracie vs Hughes Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 13:11:55 -0600 From: "Lehr, Sage" To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Amen to that! Nicely said. -----Original Message----- From: Gladewater SooBahkDo [mailto:gladewatersoobahkdo@msn.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2006 12:46 PM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Gracie vs Hughes The match up between these two fighters is historic. As for Matt He has a wresting advantage, and a stand up advantage. His strength advantage IMHO will not be an issue. Although Hughes is a much stronger man, Gracie has proven he can deal with stronger fighter. Ken Shamrock was stronger, Kimo was stronger They were not just stronger they were heavy. The weight of the fighter was something that he will not have to deal with in this fight. If the AC allows it I believe Gracie will use the GI. I am sure Matt Hughes is getting prepared and he has a strong camp, however if you believe Gracie is not going to come prepared you are living in the stars. Gracie and the whole family chalanged fighters from all disciplines for years before the UFC existed, I am sure Matt Hughes will not bring anything the Gracies have not seen. I think both are great fighters and deserve the respect they have earned. I still think it will go to the ground and Matt will be on top attempting the ground and pound. Hughes has learned some summission but submitting R. Gracie is not like summitting an average fighter and I don't think Hughes can do it. On the other hand I think Gracie can submit Hughes at any time. I don't think Hughes can cause gracie to tap either, He will have to KO him or break a bone. Matt will tap if put in a lock or choke. BJ Penn proved that. Just My Opinion JC _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest