Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 10:03:22 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 13 #73 - 6 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,100 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. RE: Spandex and Beyond (Atholl Stewart) 2. Re: TKD Patterns in XML format (Benjamin Nall) 3. RE: Spandex and Beyond (Atholl Stewart) 4. Spandex and beyond (rwood) 5. Martial (Bruce Sims) 6. Spandex and beyond (Stovall, Craig) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Atholl Stewart" To: Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 10:04:59 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Spandex and Beyond Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net ok .. i'm by no way an expert, but I will have a go at this .. please don’t jump me though, I'm only a beginner grappler! 1/. Do people consider muay thai, western boxing, judo (in its current form) or ju-jitsu martial arts? I imagine most people would, but these are all arts firmly based in performance based competitive training with little or no requirement to demonstrate a 'higher level of being'. Some people argue that these arts are martial 'sports' rather than 'arts'. Personally, that is a label I would be happy with, others feel strongly otherwise. As to a particular mind-set which the successful MMA practitioner will exhibit, I would imagine it is generally the same as that of any high level practitioner of any physical activity - strength of mind, courage, discipline, commitment, confidence, perseverance etc... the very same qualities a 'true' martial art would aim to develop? 2/. To my understanding MMA is very close to the jeet kun do philosophy of: 2 arms, 2 legs, 1 head. As long as it is humans fighting, then there is only one way to fight. The only empirical way to test this? competition against non-compliant opposition. The techniques that survive, are the ones that have been proven to work, and are tried and tested again and again by the individual against 'alive' opposition. So I would say... no, there is no 'set' core techniques. What works stays. What doesn’t is discarded. Having said that, to refer back to the 2-2-1, there is likely to be some techniques which are universal: many of the same simple kicks, punches and grappling moves make it into most martial arts in some form or another - now .. I wonder why that is? 3/. Controversial point: the UFC has been criticized, and I agree, for enforcing a restricted rule set which favours grapplers. Having said that: if you want to fight a grappler, you need to know how to grapple (the last couple of months have definitely taught me that :). I wouldn’t be surprised if the rule set goes the other way though: the strikers are coming back! > I would rather not see what I do corrupted by sportification sorry, not biting :) I think I have a fair idea of your views on MMA - you train in techniques too deadly for the ring right? do you feel the same way about K-1, Pride etc? > Message: 4> Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 06:57:51 -0800 (PST)> From: Bruce Sims > To: Ray Terry > Subject: [The_Dojang] Spandex and beyond> Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net> > Dear Folks: > > I had hoped that someone would take up my thought earlier. Since noone has I guess its time to (once again) stick my neck out. here are some questions that come to mind regarding MMA. > > 1.) If one is to consider an activity a true "martial art" there needs to be some modification of the individuals values or thinking as a result of the training. Some arts have philosophies or beliefs that shaped their development. For instance, JMA often draws on Bushido as its root and KMA have Mu-Do, Confucianism and Buddhism. Do the people who guide the development of MMA have a set of principles or beliefs that shape how they choose to accept or reject material? Is there a kind of mind-set that can be identified as the epitome of development which the successful MMA practiioner will exhibit? > > 2.) The kwan to which I belong has a Kebonsu or set of "core techniques" from which the rest of the art proceeds. With the odd modification, most people who come from the YMK/WHF tradition will know and use those techniques as a foundation. Do the MMA have core set of techniques? I understand that by definition MMA IS "mixed." However I think its fair to assume that a particular approach to conflict from a particular view will tend to favor some techniques over other. Thoughts? > > 3.) I understand that MMA competitions must have rules that favor the protection of individuals. I also know that not all rules are created equal and that some rules favor/disfavor some approaches. Does anyone want to address what rules are generally considered "good" rules and what rules are generally considered "poor"? > > Let me also say that I am a Hapkido traditionalist and would rather not see what I do corrupted by sportification. However, that does not mean that I am not intersted in those influences floating around in the community. If someone can speak to these questions, I only have about another 20 or so to ask. > > Best Wishes, > > Bruce > _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ --__--__-- Message: 2 From: Benjamin Nall Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 08:46:16 -0500 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: TKD Patterns in XML format Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net If you send me the patterns in plain text or word format, I'll format the XML and post it for you. BongSoo On Feb 9, 2006, at 6:02 PM, the_dojang- request@martialartsresource.net wrote: > TKD Patterns in XML format --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Atholl Stewart" To: Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 15:36:46 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Spandex and Beyond Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net actually, sorry, I take that last comment back: I wouldn’t want to presume to know what you think Bruce, I was just following on from your 'predators' comment that your opinion of MMA practitioners in general isnt that great! However, as someone else said there are bad eggs in every basket, and for every loon you have a Randy Couture. I would say that culture is bred from and has far more to do with the the instructor and club/training environment than whatever techniques are practiced on the mat. _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "rwood" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 10:15:03 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Spandex and beyond Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net 1.) If one is to consider an activity a true "martial art" there needs to be some modification of the individuals values or thinking as a result of the training. Some arts have philosophies or beliefs that shaped their development. For instance, JMA often draws on Bushido as its root and KMA have Mu-Do, Confucianism and Buddhism. Do the people who guide the development of MMA have a set of principles or beliefs that shape how they choose to accept or reject material? Is there a kind of mind-set that can be identified as the epitome of development which the successful MMA practitioner will exhibit? A: Although MA descends from religious orders and warrior codes of conduct, it is up to the individual how they live out their lives. It is the MA community’s responsibility to validate the behavior that exemplifies the tenets of their philosophies. I am the teacher/supervisor for a outside school suspension program. I had a male student that was placed in ther program for fighting twice. I encouraged him to join MA school I am student at. I also spoke with my instructor about his history. Just last night I was proud of the progress he has made and the fact he has not been in trouble since beginning the MA school. Did our training principles chance him? No; however the training principles have been modeled for him and he knows that he is accountable for his actions. Our actions will be measured against the training principles and if anyone is found lacking they may be asked to leave the community. 2.) The kwan to which I belong has a Kebonsu or set of "core techniques" from which the rest of the art proceeds. With the odd modification, most people who come from the YMK/WHF tradition will know and use those techniques as a foundation. Do the MMA have core set of techniques? I understand that by definition MMA IS "mixed." However I think it’s fair to assume that a particular approach to conflict from a particular view will tend to favor some techniques over other. Thoughts? B: Ha Wrang Do uses Tea Soo Do as a foundation to build on, I am studying Youn Wha Ryu which uses Tae Kwon Do as a foundation before moving on to the more advanced stuff. I America we tend to have, what I call, the “fast food” approach. It, what ever “it” is, must be fast cheap and easy. Concerning MMA they tend to throw out anything that would require effort to lean. Yes, I know that they spend years to learn all of their techniques. The MMA we see has been gutted of tradition (not a popular word) and boiled down to what sells. 3.) I understand that MMA competitions must have rules that favor the protection of individuals. I also know that not all rules are created equal and that some rules favor/disfavor some approaches. Does anyone want to address what rules are generally considered "good" rules and what rules are generally considered "poor"? C: The rules were changed to favor SALES. People watched and saw the Gracie family rolling abound on the mat and were bored; sponsors and advertisers were reluctant to fund the events. Well, that my two cents worth. IHS, Rob Wood He who ignores disciple comes to poverty and shame, but whoever heeds correction is honored. Proverbs 13:18 --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 09:03:19 -0800 (PST) From: Bruce Sims To: Ray Terry Subject: [The_Dojang] Martial Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net ".....You said I don't remotely believe this and neither should you. A martial art is not some panacea. It is up to the individual to decide what change they will make. To believe otherwise is to live in an unhealthy false reality. Most of us are martial artists but I highly doubt that many of us will resort to mental modification. Of course, it has also been shown that rhythmic motion does make the mind more susceptible to suggestion but that doesn't mean it will necessarily change us. We must CHOOSE what we want. Making that choice has nothing to do about whether or not what we do is a martial art...." Thanks, but I have been a civilian and I have been in the military and I have a pretty good idea of what the difference is between something that is "military" and something that is "martial". That pivotal difference is how the individual perceives their roles and responsibilities. Were this not true there would be no need for Basic Training. I do not represent MA as a cure-all, nor do I believe that MA is for everyone. I do believe that unless there is a basic shift in the values that a person studying MA holds all one is doing is developing a well-trained bully. Each activity has its core beliefs. Even the American ball-sports press the idea of Sportsmanship and Ethical Behavior. MA, too, has its core beliefs including Service and Ethical Behavior. What I am writing about is a maintstay of the Hapkido arts in general and the kwan I belong to specifically. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 11:38:25 -0600 From: "Stovall, Craig" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Spandex and beyond Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <<>> Tough question. What one has to realize is that most of MMA's component arts are in reality "combat sports". Boxing, BJJ, Sambo, wrestling, Muay Thai, kickboxing, etc. So, in the final analysis the "spiritual" component of MMA is largely guided by the pieces, and the pieces are largely guided by the sports paradigm of "winning is the point". Now, as MMA continues to gel into it's own entity (and there are many current incarnations) there will probably be a shift toward what you are talking about. The interesting thing to me is where it will come from. I can only say that I like to use the Machados mantra of "leave your ego at the door". In the end, the only things I require are a good attitude, a willingness to learn, and the acceptance of hard work. When those things are in place then we can all come together in the spirit of mutual respect and mutual benefit. As for those that don't "get it", we like to socially engineer things so that they find the door as soon as possible. In the end, I'm not concerned about "inculcating beliefs" as much as I am in "weeding out the assholes". I know that comes no where near to addressing your question, but I don't want to just say "it's not there" and go forward. The fact is that there are cultural mores and beliefs, but they are more unique to the trainers and their camps as opposed to being more universal institutionalized systems like what you have in TMA. <<< The kwan to which I belong has a Kebonsu or set of "core techniques" from which the rest of the art proceeds. With the odd modification, most people who come from the YMK/WHF tradition will know and use those techniques as a foundation. Do the MMA have core set of techniques? I understand that by definition MMA IS "mixed." However I think its fair to assume that a particular approach to conflict from a particular view will tend to favor some techniques over other. Thoughts?>>> This is an extremely difficult question, and the neophyte MMAer tends to respond with "whatever works, stupid". Well, the facts are a little deeper than that so I'm going to approach the question on a couple of different fronts. One way to approach the question is to look at the tactical and technical realities of an MMA contest, and then look to the source arts that tend to excel in "lending a hand" in that direction. Here's an umbrella list of MMA's core tactical issues and the arts that address those issues: Stand-up fighing. This is to include any and all pugilism while both fighters are on the feet, or while attacking a downed opponent while still standing (ie, I am standing above my opponent who is playing open guard). The primary arts that lend to this area are western boxing and Muay Thai. To some degree we see some TKD as well as some of the harder karate styles (kyokushin-kai, etc). Standing Clinch. This includes any standing grapple and encompasses all efforts to control the opponent from a standing position with the aim being to take them down, avoid being taken down, or insertion of one's strikes. The last 7 years has seen the widespread adoption of Greco-Roman wrestling techniques. The pummeling and control tie-ups make them obvious tools for this range. The Muay Thai "plum" position is also a dominant technical tool. The head chancery combined with knee and elbow strikes make it a logical choice. As of yet, Judo has not had a profound impact by my view of things mainly because of the lack of handles (gi is not typically worn). Freestyle wrestling or American Folkstyle has also had a tremendous contribution to this area. Throws and Takedowns. Again, Greco and Freestyle have been the main contributors because of their excellence at handling a non-jacketed opponent. Judo is starting to make some impact at this range despite the lack of the jacket as some fighters (Gokor Chivichyan's camp comes to mind) are starting to adjust to the "natural handles" of the body in order to effect Judo throws. Sambo has had some impact on this range as well. Ground Control. Wrestling and BJJ are the obvious choices at this range, and their positional control theories and techniques are at the core of this aspect of the game. The use of the guard as a ground control tactic is a glaring example of where a single art (BJJ) has provided a critical core tactic in terms of playing the game. Submission. BJJ almost stands alone here. As with the advent of the guard as a dominant fighting strategy, they trumpeted the use of submission techniques as a core strategy and continue to be the art of choice at this range. It's sister arts of Judo and Sambo also give their particular influences. Ok, so that's looking at it from the different ranges and situational dynamics (not a comprehensive list, BTW). If I had to name three arts that have had the most impact on MMA I would have to say Muay Thai, Western Wrestling, and BJJ. You will pretty much find those arts being a core part of the curriculum at most good MMA gyms. However, we can't just mash these arts together and hope to come out with something that is greater than the sum of the parts. How these things come together is up to the trainer and the fighter, and is one of the reasons why we see so many different "styles" in the ring. In the end, the expression of the art is a very personal thing (as it should be). Now, I can also approach this question by looking at the technical pools of some of the world's prominent MMA camps. Chute Boxe Gym- These guys are hardcore Muay Thai fighters combined with a very strong no-gi BJJ game. Considered by many to be the best fight gym in the world. It's interesting to look at their approach...yes, they have strong BJJ but they are not looking to submit or lay back and play guard. These guys want to be on top and throwing leather at all times. Their game is domination and punishment, and they do well to mine their core arts of the techniques to carry out this end. Brazilian Top Team - BJJ is at the very core of what these guys do. Their games are rounded out with boxing and Muay Thai. Heavily influenced by the old Vale Tudo traditions, they tend to stick to their BJJ roots. They are not afraid to play a more patient game. Make very liberal use of the guard, and it's not uncommon to see even their strongest fighters resort to working from the back. SLO Kickboxing (The Pit) - This is Chuck Liddell's camp. They are the innovators of the "Sprawl-and-Brawl" strategy. Their striking is heavily grounded in boxing and American Kickboxing (maybe a little Thai influence but not much). They use western wrestling as an "anti-grappling" tactic in order to keep the fight on the feet, and finish by using their great striking. Some BJJ is also part of their game as of late in the form of trainer/fighter John Lewis. Hammer House - Hardcore wrestling. If they have any striking you wouldn't know it because they're too busy trying to throw people on their head. Looks to have some boxing and some submission (BJJ influence), but they are the creators of the "ground-and-pound" school of thought. Basically, have unbeatable throws and takedowns, and a rock solid base on the ground to either dominate the mount or thwart the opponent's guard sweeps/submissions. From there, they throw leather until the bell rings. Very dominant a few years back, but their stock is falling with the aging of some of their key fighters. Very influential club. Redefined guard use out of necessity as opponents could not utilize a closed guard passive strategy. Team Quest - This is Randy Couture's camp, and is very strong on wrestling (particularly Greco). They round things out with boxing and BJJ. Couture is the guy that blew the door open with Greco-Roman, and beat a young phenom by the name of Vitor Belfort by shutting down his strikes with an underhook game combined with some good old "dirty boxing". Again, not a comprehensive list, but enough to see a common theme emerge. Muay Thai, wrestling, and BJJ. The bottom line is this...you must either know how to fight from the ground, or prevent the takedown altogether or you won't survive long. The opposite of that is a need to deliver punishment in the form of strikes. Muay Thai fits the bill quite nicely because of their efficient delivery system, as well as their emphasis on power hitting to all points of the body. In football, you have to build your game around the three aspects...offense, defense, and special teams. In MMA, you have to build around the "Big 3" also...on the feet, in the clinch, and on the ground. That's the highest level at which you can approach the game, and still have enough of a skeleton upon which to begin "hanging the meat". <<< I understand that MMA competitions must have rules that favor the protection of individuals. I also know that not all rules are created equal and that some rules favor/disfavor some approaches. Does anyone want to address what rules are generally considered "good" rules and what rules are generally considered "poor"?>>> Another tough one. There are some purists still out there who liked the old Gracie handshake agreement...no biting, no eye gouging, and no groin strikes. That was their take on what was needed in order to make sure that both people could get up and go to work in the morning, and the early UFC was not too far from that. Many people would like it back that way, but I'm a little more prudent I guess. The thing that you have to remember is that there are more commercial dynamics driving this thing as opposed to any sense of "right and wrong". State athletic commissions are just not going to sanction anything that allows the stomping of a downed opponent's head. Now, the question for me is would the promoters still allow people to fight this way if sanctioning was not an issue. Scary thought, eh? To try and speak more directly to your question, I kind of need to step away from MMA in it's current popular manifestation (UFC, Pride, etc) and look at it more as a practitioner. Now, if someone came into our club and was adamant about "test driving" our abilities, what rules would I set out in order to not only insure safety but honor the older traditions of two men coming together for a mutual combat. I think the Gracie "eyes, teeth, nuts" rule is a good starting place and I'm assuming I don't need to go into too much detail as to that logic stream. Another immediate one to consider would be any kind of soft tissue attack around the head and face. That would include pulling/twisting the ears, and fish hooking the mouth. I'd like to think we could settle things without permanent disfigurement. Stomping the downed opponent is another obvious one...not because I wouldn't like to stomp on a few people's heads, but we just need to rule out anything that could result in death. Spiking slams and throws that result in someone landing on their noggin is also a good one to stay away from. Submission requires it's own debate by itself. Finger and toe manipulation is generally disallowed by most shows, and I'm not too keen on it myself. You need that stuff for self-defense, but I wouldn't resort to that personally during some sort of a challenge match. They break too easily and quickly. Cervical cranks and manipulations are also a concern...paralysis is not a fun way to live out your remaining days. Again, that's something we drill for "just in case" but we don't play "live" with it too much and I certainly wouldn't want that part of a heated contest. Heel hooks/lifts are also a controversial subject...we drill them and they are a part of our core curriculum. We even go "live" with them, but if you ask some other folks they'll tell you that heel hooks are the worst thing since AIDS. Perception is a lot of it. <<>> FWIW, I think Hapkido could be well served by borrowing some of the training dynamics from MMA and/or it's component arts (BJJ, etc). I think you can do that with relative ease, and not have your technical base diluted by "the rules" needed in order for two people to come together in order to randori (roll, spar, etc). IMO, the benefit of the "dose of reality" that this type of training brings to the table far outweighs any risk of watering down the curriculum. Now, the bigger question is this idea of "sportification". I can insure you that the vast majority of the stuff that we "go live" with is quite capable of putting someone down in a quick and serious manner. A choke is a choke...in one case your buddy taps out and you start over, and in the other case the assailant gets put to dream land until the cops show up. A kimura is a kimura...there's the "buddy" case, and then there's the case in which the guy gets torqued until the shoulder and elbow separate. A 1-arm seionage is the same thing...I let my buddy breakfall, or I make the creep land on his head. This is the only thing that I have ever held onto and I didn't come to this realization until I actually got on the mat and did it. The thing is that "sport" training is valuable in that I certainly can't choke out someone who's trying to kill me if I can't even choke out my training partner who's maybe going 80% with me. I know that's a hard pill for some people to swallow, and I've long given up trying to make people "get it". Some lessons can only be learned on the mat, and the RELATIVE value of this type of training can only be appreciated through experience. I can only suggest that you reserve judgment on these techniques and training methods until you've been triangle choked so hard that the snot bubbles come out of your eyes and ears. Anyhoo, feel free to shoot more questions. I hope this is the type of dialogue that you're looking for. Come over to the Dark Side, Bruce!!! --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest