Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 13:14:36 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 13 #81 - 13 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,100 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. 2006 USAT Coaching Credentials (Ray Terry) 2. rank Recognition (Dennis McHenry) 3. Congrats Master Terry (Dennis McHenry) 4. RE: Help with Yu, Won, Wha (Lehr, Sage) 5. Re: Ray (aburrese@aol.com) 6. RE: rank Recognition (Rick Clark) 7. Congrat Ray (katkelly) 8. Yu, won, wha (JR West) 9. Yu, won, wha (Gordon) 10. Re: Hwa Won Yu - the origin (Klaas Barends) 11. Re:Yu - Won - Hap (Michael Whalen) 12. Re: Help with Yu, Won, Wha (Central WI Professional Fitness Services LLC) 13. Help with Yu, Won, Wha (Stovall, Craig) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 09:03:37 -0800 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] 2006 USAT Coaching Credentials Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net 2006 USAT Coaching Credentials USAT Coaches you asked, we listened. In a poll taken at the 2005 Junior Olympics, USAT Coaches asked USAT to simplify the registration process. We did two things for you ------ Online Registration AND-------------------- Now we introduce the 2006 Coaches Pass USA Taekwondo has developed a coaching pass for the entire year of 2006. This credential is good for the U.S. Open, all 6 National Qualifiers, the Junior Olympics and The Senior Nationals. Buy this credential and you never have to worry about registering, paying, trying to beat the late fees and standing in long registration lines. With the 2006 USAT Coaches Credential, you can walk right into the event and receive floor access when your athletes are competing and access to the stands when they are not. Don't have any athletes competing at a qualifier but you still need to go? You can because you have the 2006 USAT Coaches Credential. A friend needs you to help them coach his/her athletes - You can without ever registering for this event! Getting in later than the registration times? No worries. The charge for this exceptionally convenient credential is $300 All 9 USAT events for just $300!! That is a $240.00 dollar savings!! Buy now and receive one FREE Spectator ticket for all of USA Taekwondo's nine events. This credential is non transferable and the fees are non-refundable. The fee for the USAT Coaches Credential does not include Coaching Seminar fees and it does not automatically register you for the Coaching Seminars. The credential will be forfeited if misused in any way. --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 11:05:05 -0600 From: Dennis McHenry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] rank Recognition Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jason wrote: (referring to the Kukkiwon) "...It's questionable in my opinion as to its value, other than lining the pockets of a distant group of people." You must be jesting! Surly just becase Un-yong Kim's name in on my certificate wouldn't mean that money went to line HIS pockets!!! Oh wait - it did go to line his pockets... never mind (said in my best Gilda Radner impression). :p Mac --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 11:06:11 -0600 From: Dennis McHenry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Congrats Master Terry Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Congrats Master Terry on your marrage! Mac --__--__-- Message: 4 Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Help with Yu, Won, Wha Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 11:12:22 -0600 From: "Lehr, Sage" To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I am not a Master nor do I live in Korea, but most of what I have practiced always states/applies these three principals. http://www.kidohae.com/5-3FundamentalsOfHapkido.html After all, Hapkido and Aikido are "lineage arts" from aikijujutsu. Let me ask you this; can you practice or apply Hapkido techniques with out using any of these principals? If the answer you seek is no; then they must to be true applications of the art. You may not study it or be told "these are the principles" however, are you not applying them as you practice Hapkido? Sage L. -----Original Message----- From: John Johnson [mailto:beowulf600@hotmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2006 10:23 AM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Help with Yu, Won, Wha Dear Master Cyrus et al: This is a subject that has bothered me for some time. I spoke with Korea Hapkido Federation Planning Director Gimm June about this several months ago. He stated the Yu, Won, and Wha principles that so many western hapkido websites proclaim to be fundamentals of the art are actually not a part of hapkido. They are in reality aiki-jujutsu principles someone took from that art and stuck it on their website. From there it spread to the other western hapkido websites so much that it's impossible to tell where it came from. In many ways, it's almost a rumor turned into truth. "Almost" being the key word in that sentence. If you look at the Korean website you will notice none of them discuss these Yu, Won, or Wha. Of course, you'll have to trust me on this one unless you can read Hangul, but I've seen dozens of Korean hapkido sites and the Yu, Won, and Wha are nowhere to be found. I believe someone got on the web, decided they would sound official by taking aikijujutsu principles and applying them to hapkido. This to me, however, sounds like applying ITF side kick principles to a Shotokan kick. For hapkido authorities in English, just go and check out the Kido Hui or the former Korea Hapkido Federation's English sites. These three principles are missing. Also, check out Master JR West's website; he doesn't include them there either. Yet, many of the hapkido instructors without direct ties to Korean masters swear by them. (Please don't take that as an insult to anyone; I'm just stating a fact as I've seen it.) Although it can be argued that Yu, Won, and Wha are a part of hapkido, I don't believe they should be focused on while training. I believe is this is why Doju-nim doesn't subscribe much to them since he didn't incorporate them into the art. I have been numerous dojangs here in Korea, spoken to possibly hundreds of masters, and never once heard them discuss the principles of Yu, Won, or Wha. What is discussed, however, is the different applications of techniques and the various philosophies behind those applications. Each master has their own opinion, and it's truly amazing to watch them execute their individual principles on the mat. John A. Johnson Seoul, S. Korea e-Culture Team Korea Hapkido Federation     ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From:  Chosondo@aol.com Reply-To:  the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To:  the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject:  [The_Dojang] Help with Yu, Won, Wha Date:  Wed, 15 Feb 2006 09:14:52 EST >Greetings DDers, > >I need a little help with the origin and use of the supposed core principles >of Hapkido; Yu, Won, Wha. I would like to know who originated the use of these >principles. This might sound like a strange inquiry but it dawned on me >recently that I do not know who formulated these principles or how they came to be >an integral part of the practice of Hapkido. > >I am in the process of writting an article for Taekwondo Times on the >"Technical  and Conceptual Evolution of Hapkido" and I discussed this extensively >with Doju Ji Han Jae. I was surprised to learn that these principles were not >formulated by him. Further, he does not subcribed to these principles. Have any >of you (who have attended his seminars) ever heard him discuss the principles >or even make reference to them? I have not, and I spend quite a bit of time on >the mat with him. Moreover, he was clear on the fact that he did not know who >formulated the aforementioned principles and that those who espouses them >really do not know what they are talking about or doing for that matter. Any help >will be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance. > >Ian A. Cyrus, Headmaster >International Chosondo Federation >Choson Kwon Bup - Hapkido - Taekwondo >7252 Valley Ave >Philadelphia, PA 19128 >215-483-5057 >www.chosondo.com >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 12:28:19 -0500 From: aburrese@aol.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Ray Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Congratulations Ray! Wishing you all the very best, Alain www.burrese.com For Your Safety - For Your Success --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 12:34:09 -0500 From: "Rick Clark" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] rank Recognition To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I have debated responding to this thread but - what the heck - If you want to compete or your students compete in the Olympics then you will want certification by a group that can get you recognized. Other than that pick an instructor or association that will teach you well, and will provide the services you and your students need. Even if you do not want to compete in the Olympics then even with club certificates you can compete in open tournaments. Various associations even the international ones don't seem to want to recognize rank from other groups. So why send money to corrupt organizations overseas? Rick Clark "I am not young enough to know everything." - Oscar Wilde www.ao-denkou-kai.org >-----Original Message----- >From: Dennis McHenry [mailto:dpmchenry@gmail.com] >Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2006 12:05 PM >To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >Subject: [The_Dojang] rank Recognition > > >Jason wrote: (referring to the Kukkiwon) "...It's questionable >in my opinion as to its value, other than lining the pockets >of a distant group of people." > >You must be jesting! Surly just becase Un-yong Kim's name in on my >certificate wouldn't mean that money went to line HIS >pockets!!! Oh wait >- it did go to line his pockets... never mind (said in my best >Gilda Radner impression). :p > >Mac >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 12:59:18 -0600 From: "katkelly" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Congrat Ray Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Congrats to Master & Mrs Terry!!! Can't wait to meet her, hope she will join all of us in Jackson. Kat ________________________________________________________________ Sent via the EV1 webmail system at mail.ev1.net --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "JR West" To: Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 13:36:39 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Yu, won, wha Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Also, check out Master JR West's website; he doesn't include them there either. John: You are absolutely correct in that I never heard of these principles used by name in conjunction with the study of Hapkido until the last 10 years or so, and then it was mainly an American addition. I teach these "ideas" as part of basic motion in whatever I do, because of the fact that "truth is truth". Dr. Kimm wrote an essay about 30 years ago on an explanation of these Buddhist concepts as they relate to martial arts, and I still have it as required reading, but nowhere does he refer to them under these names......JRW www.hapkido.com --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Gordon" To: Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 14:11:00 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Yu, won, wha Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net GM West, I know you saw this coming, I took the bait; is this essay available for others to read? Gordon Okerstrom --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 05:32:20 +0900 From: Klaas Barends To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Hwa Won Yu - the origin Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > If you look at the Korean website you will notice none of them discuss > these Yu, Won, or Wha. Of course, you'll have to trust me on this one > unless you can read Hangul, but I've seen dozens of Korean hapkido sites > and the Yu, Won, and?Wha are nowhere to be found. Guess you have never watched the I.H.F. website :-) Although they might be mentioned there, the I.H.F curriculum has three basic techniques (Jeon Hwan Bub (circle), Young Nyu Bub (water) Shim Hwa Bub (harmony) to study these principles. Now of course it is not a secret that I.H.F. style hapkido is much more aikido-ish than mainstream hapkido. So that it might not come as a suprise that those principles are very important to this particular style. > Although it can be argued that Yu, Won, and?Wha are a part of hapkido, I > don't believe they should be focused on while training. With my background in hankido I would say the opposite, you can't focus enough on those three principles. Where the principles have their origin, I don't know. But probably, like mentioned before, in Japanese aiki-jutsu. Since hapkido has its roots there as well, why should you leave it out of hapkido? For more information about the principles in English: http://www.sangmookwan.com/index.php?mode=info&Page=40 http://www.hapkido.nl/uk/index.php?mode=info&Page=145 -- mvg. Klaas Barends http://www.hapkidoforum.com/ --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "Michael Whalen" To: "dojang digest" Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 14:33:22 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re:Yu - Won - Hap Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >Moreover, he was clear on the fact that he did not know who >formulated the aforementioned principles and that those who espouses them >really do not know what they are talking about or doing for that matter. Uh-oh. Somebody needs to tell the rest of the Kuk Sool'ers. Shame, I've been wasting all this time....... michael whalen KSWnut --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 14:35:13 -0600 From: Central WI Professional Fitness Services LLC To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Help with Yu, Won, Wha Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Just an interesting note, and FWIW, on pages 88-89 of Dr. He-Young Kimms "Hapkido" (AKA Hapkido Bible) he states that "In order to understand the movements and techniques of Hapkido, one must study the theories of Yu, Won, and Wha." ............Dave Pryga > Message: 11 > From: "John Johnson" > To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Help with Yu, Won, Wha > Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 16:22:51 +0000 > Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > > > > For hapkido authorities in English, just go and check out the Kido Hui or > the former Korea Hapkido Federation's English sites. These three > principles are missing. Also, check out Master JR West's website; he > doesn't include them there either. Yet, many of the hapkido instructors > without direct ties to Korean masters swear by them. (Please don't take > that as an insult to anyone; I'm just stating a fact as I've seen it.) > > > John A. Johnson > Seoul, S. Korea > e-Culture Team > Korea Hapkido Federation --__--__-- Message: 13 Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 15:00:10 -0600 From: "Stovall, Craig" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Help with Yu, Won, Wha Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <<From there it spread to the other western hapkido websites so much that it's impossible to tell where it came from. In many ways, it's almost a rumor turned into truth. "Almost" being the key word in that sentence.>>> Wow, this is some interesting stuff. Now, let me pose a question. If it is true that these three guiding principles are at the core of Aiki-jujutsu, and AJJ is at the technical core of Hapkido, then does it not stand to reason that most Hapkido techniques are grounded in these same principles (whether the Koreans say so or not). Just trying to play Devil's Advocate here...I have no dog in this hunt. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest