Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 19:39:21 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 13 #84 - 15 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,100 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re:Three principles and Ji Han Jae (Klaas Barends) 2. Hapkido vs Daito Ryu Principles (Chosondo@aol.com) 3. RE: RE: Three Principles... (michael tomlinson) 4. RE: RE: Three Principles... (Lehr, Sage) 5. Re: Re:Three principles and Ji Han Jae (Ray) 6. Re: Rank Recog. (Manuel Maldonado) 7. Correction (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 8. (no subject) (Christopher Gunkle) 9. Yu, Won, Wha Principle explained (Kevin Janisse) 10. Re: Re: Rank Recog. (Ray) 11. RE: Yu, Won, Wha Principle explained (michael tomlinson) 12. Hapkido Principles (Patrick L) 13. Re: (no subject) (Tim) 14. Re: Yu, Won, Wha Principle explained (Larrykempo@aol.com) 15. Re: Principles of Hapkido... (J Thomas Howard) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Klaas Barends Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 12:16:55 +0100 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re:Three principles and Ji Han Jae Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > I think the point here is that if Gm Ji isn't familiar with it then > neither > he nor Gm Choi taught it. Or Choi didn't teach it to Ji. Remember that Ji was just a teenager when he was a student of Choi. How much can he have learned from Choi anyway? But, I think that Ji more says something like: A lot of people in hapkido talk about the three principles, but not a lot of people actually understand those three principles. Let alone, know how to apply them. -- kind regards, Klaas Barends http://www.hapkiforum.com/ --__--__-- Message: 2 From: Chosondo@aol.com Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 07:25:09 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Hapkido vs Daito Ryu Principles Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ladies & Gentlemen: I do appreciate the interest in subject of Yu, Won, Wha. Some you mentioned that these principles are actually a part of Daito Ryu. This may be inherently true but not actually espoused. Daito Ryu teaches six principles: 1. Rei (Correct and formal conduct) 2. Metsuke (Eye Contact) 3. Maai (Distancing) 4. Kokyu (Breathing) 5. Kuzushi (unbalancing) 6. Zanshin (Remaining Mind & Full Effort) These principles are extremely deep and complex and mastery of even one of them requires a great deal of time and effort. Ones ability to perform Daito Ryu skills correctly and fully will only develop through constant and strenuous effort to take all six into account at all times. Since the supposed above-mentioned three principles of hapkido is not inherently a part of Daito Ryu, where did they come from? GM West, care to share that essay you mentioned? Ian A. Cyrus, Headmaster International Chosondo Federation Choson Kwon Bup - Hapkido - Taekwondo 7252 Valley Ave Philadelphia, PA 19128 215-483-5057 www.chosondo.com --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] RE: Three Principles... Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 13:14:51 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I'll note: GM Ji indeed is an authority on Hapkido. However, that doesn't change the fact that what he says is not law. I find it interesting that he would say that these three concepts are not central to Hapkido AND that the people who talk about them have no idea what they are talking about. I mean no disrespect to GM Ji, and I certainly don't mean to compare my knowledge of Hapkido to his. That doesn't change the fact that his is not the only Hapkido. And what may be true with regard to the underpinnings of his art is not necessarily always true about other versions. >>> No one said Ji reacted or said anything like you just quoted on here???? All anyone said was that they hadn't ever heard him use those phrases to explain Hapkido philosophy. We never mentioned anything about them not being in Hapkido. If you want my opinion on this: personally I think those philosophies are Hapkido common sense to anyone who actually does Hapkido more than every now and then. Circular motion, descending arcs, water principle, whew that's a revelation that should be chiseled on a rock somewhere???...IF you don't understand this with your body while doing Hapkido then you are missing the boat. These are teaching phrases to help you understand basic movement...not some Hapkido manifesto to pick up a flag with them on it and run around the Hapkido world saying "hey look I know this about Hapkido...what is the big deal??? You sound quite upset and affronted about what??? The fact that Ji didn't recognize something that every blue belt should understand internally instead of making it the eleventh commandment... Michael Tomlinson Hapkido fourth principle....relax it don't mean nothing... --__--__-- Message: 4 Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] RE: Three Principles... Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 08:02:55 -0600 From: "Lehr, Sage" To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net AMEN TO THAT!!! Sage -----Original Message----- From: michael tomlinson [mailto:tomlinson_michael@hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2006 7:15 AM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] RE: Three Principles... I'll note: GM Ji indeed is an authority on Hapkido. However, that doesn't change the fact that what he says is not law. I find it interesting that he would say that these three concepts are not central to Hapkido AND that the people who talk about them have no idea what they are talking about. I mean no disrespect to GM Ji, and I certainly don't mean to compare my knowledge of Hapkido to his. That doesn't change the fact that his is not the only Hapkido. And what may be true with regard to the underpinnings of his art is not necessarily always true about other versions. >>> No one said Ji reacted or said anything like you just quoted on here???? All anyone said was that they hadn't ever heard him use those phrases to explain Hapkido philosophy. We never mentioned anything about them not being in Hapkido. If you want my opinion on this: personally I think those philosophies are Hapkido common sense to anyone who actually does Hapkido more than every now and then. Circular motion, descending arcs, water principle, whew that's a revelation that should be chiseled on a rock somewhere???...IF you don't understand this with your body while doing Hapkido then you are missing the boat. These are teaching phrases to help you understand basic movement...not some Hapkido manifesto to pick up a flag with them on it and run around the Hapkido world saying "hey look I know this about Hapkido...what is the big deal??? You sound quite upset and affronted about what??? The fact that Ji didn't recognize something that every blue belt should understand internally instead of making it the eleventh commandment... Michael Tomlinson Hapkido fourth principle....relax it don't mean nothing... _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re:Three principles and Ji Han Jae To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 06:03:57 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > > I think the point here is that if Gm Ji isn't familiar with it then > > neither he nor Gm Choi taught it. > > Or Choi didn't teach it to Ji. > Remember that Ji was just a teenager when he was a student of Choi. > How much can he have learned from Choi anyway? Perhaps... Gm Ji was a student under Gm Choi when he was just a teenager. That does not imply that he stopped learning from Gm Choi once he began teaching on his own. Or that their relationship ended at that early date. We know that they exchanged ideas, and rank, until at least the late 60s or 70s. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Manuel Maldonado" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 07:10:07 -0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Rank Recog. Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jason?? Really I did not know one could go online and "purchase" Kukiwon certificates. I gues you do learn something new everyday. Manuel Maldonado --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: "the_dojang" Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 21:29:05 -0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] Correction Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I posted a link to my new web site and ask for your feed back. I have gotten some feed back by was informed I posted the address in complete. It is www.mdkregionsix.com Thanks JCGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Christopher Gunkle" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 09:51:26 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] (no subject) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I was reading a post, maybe a month ago, regarding a symbol similar to um/yang, however it had red, blue, and yellow.  I cannot remember, however what the meaning of this is.  If anybody can help, I would appreciate it. Thank You, Chris --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Kevin Janisse" To: Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 08:03:53 -0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] Yu, Won, Wha Principle explained Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net The many posts on this subject have been interesting to read. Being an engineer by trade forces me to look at what much of the discussion is about in general. To me, it does not specifically matter where or who the terms are from or what system came up with them first, that knowledge is trivia yet important to the historian. As a practitioner I am more interested in the How, What, and Why than the Who, Where and When. I do like the concept of being able to give names to principles i.e. Yu, Won, Wha. This aids in the teaching philosophy. When Newton or Einstein came up with equations and theory's about physics it did not change in any way the laws already in place but merely helped others understand them, apply them, and teach them. Sincerely, Kevin Janisse --__--__-- Message: 10 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Rank Recog. To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 08:03:05 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Jason?? Really I did not know one could go online and "purchase" Kukiwon > certificates. I gues you do learn something new everyday. Manuel I'm not aware of people being able to go online and purchase valid Kukkiwon certs. But you can go online and purchase fake/forged Kukkiwon certs. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Yu, Won, Wha Principle explained Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 16:15:07 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Kevin, Nice post...I totally agree bro.... Michael Tomlinson >From: "Kevin Janisse" >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >To: >Subject: [The_Dojang] Yu, Won, Wha Principle explained >Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 08:03:53 -0800 > >The many posts on this subject have been interesting to read. Being an >engineer by trade forces me to look at what much of the discussion is about >in >general. To me, it does not specifically matter where or who the terms are >from or what system came up with them first, that knowledge is trivia yet >important to the historian. As a practitioner I am more interested in the >How, What, and Why than the Who, Where and When. >I do like the concept of being able to give names to principles i.e. Yu, >Won, >Wha. This aids in the teaching philosophy. When Newton or Einstein came >up >with equations and theory's about physics it did not change in any way the >laws already in place but merely helped others understand them, apply them, >and teach them. > >Sincerely, > >Kevin Janisse >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 12 From: "Patrick L" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 10:38:09 -0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] Hapkido Principles Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I spoke with my Instructor, Chong S. Kim last night about the three principles. I asked him since GM Ji does not believe them to be important to Hapkido, who decided to include them in our version? His first reaction was a chuckle. He then waxed on about history, and how these principles were incorporated into many Chinese and Japanese arts. He mentioned that GM Choi's Yawara, as a precurser to Hapkido, and Daito Ryu Aiki Juijitsu as a precurser to Aikido had, sort of naturaly led to inclusion of these principles in some Hapkido, as they were included in Aikido. I believe his point in this was; since these are ancient ideas, no one person can claim them, and no art can say they were "borrowed" from another. It feels like this is another "don't ask, don't tell." Either he doesn't know the WHO, or he isn't saying. In typical fashion, he ended our conversation with "Don't worry about it, just practice." :) Getting in the Way (with help from others), Patrick --__--__-- Message: 13 From: "Tim" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] (no subject) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 13:43:31 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Chris, The red or um, = positive energy of the universe. Blue or yang = negative energy. Tim ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Gunkle" To: Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2006 10:51 AM Subject: [The_Dojang] (no subject) >I was reading a post, maybe a month ago, regarding a symbol similar to > um/yang, however it had red, blue, and yellow. I cannot remember, > however what the meaning of this is. If anybody can help, I would > appreciate it. Thank You, Chris > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 14 From: Larrykempo@aol.com Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 18:31:03 EST Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Yu, Won, Wha Principle explained To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I agree with you 100% Larry Billingslea --__--__-- Message: 15 To: "the_dojang" Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 21:30:50 -0600 (CST) From: thomcat@binary.net (J Thomas Howard) Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Principles of Hapkido... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ray wrote: > I think the point here is that if Gm Ji isn't familiar with it then neither > he nor Gm Choi taught it. That covers the vast majority of Hapkido right > there. Hmm. Even though other people who studied with GM Choi for a considerable time use these concepts directly? > I'm guessing it came in via HwaRang Kwan Hapkido and/or Kuk Sool Hapkido > and moved into some other forms of Hapkido, outside of Korea. Interesting idea. I guess this brings up another question to me---if these three principles aren't the basis of the philosophy/movement for various types of Hapkido, what are? What are the fundamental principles of GM Ji's Hapkido? Of the Hapkido seen in Korea? I'm curious, because one of the things that I think makes an art strong is its adherence to a set of philosophical/movement principles that give its technique and applications a coherence. For example, in many cases this is what I think the problem is with most MMA gyms. :) Many MMA fighters know techniques. However, they take some boxing, some kicking, some groundfighting, some submission, etc, and can do the techniques very well. However, many cannot seen to coherently make a whole of them, so they don't flow well. (And often don't seem to understand the importance of position relative to technique. There are notable exceptions to this, of course.) Anyway, this is off the point. So then what are the defining principles of Hapkido, for those who don't use Water, Circle, and Harmony? Thomas H. ------------------------------------ thomcat@binary.net hapkido.4t.com "If you aren't modeling what you are teaching then you are teaching something else." --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest