Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 08:34:03 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 13 #86 - 14 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,100 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Principes of Basic motion (JR West) 2. RE: Re: Rank Recog. (Jason Thomas (Y!)) 3. RE: Re: Rank Recog. (Jason Thomas (Y!)) 4. certification issues (sidtkd@aol.com) 5. Principles (Todd Miller) 6. Re: certification (Tim) 7. Interesting (Bruce Sims) 8. Re: Principles (Ray) 9. Re: certification (Ray) 10. Strawman overreactions and questions... (J Thomas Howard) 11. Circular motion (Rudy Timmerman) 12. symbol (Christopher Gunkle) 13. Starting as a white belt (was: Re: [The_Dojang] certification issues) (Jeremy Anderson) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "JR West" To: Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 23:02:09 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Principes of Basic motion Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I have to agree with my ole' FL bud Mike Tomlinson....I didn't say that these principles didn't exist, I said that they are just components of basic motion that filter in to ANY martial art, and we never discussed them at length other than to say that one must execute a technique by doing "this" because it works better if it follows these basic rules. As far as sharing Dr. Kimm's writings on the these basic subjects, they are intellectual material owned by Dr. Kimm and I'm SURE that he will not mind if I share them, but I will give him the opportunity to grant permission rather than forgiveness. I will then have to translate it into the king's English and then I will post an address where it will be available, assuming it will be OK with him. I will see Dr. Kimm at my seminar next weekend....JRW www.hapkido.com --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Jason Thomas \(Y!\)" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: Rank Recog. Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 23:18:50 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net You purchase them from people online or otherwise... I've been offered several times by people to help get Kukkiwon cert. Even though I don't practice WTF Forms. I'd leave it to the esteemed group to review the process for certification, but it basically involves someone of appropriate rank and stature recomendind you for chodan, then time in grade, then another recommendation etc... Might be an interesting experiment to see if I can get one of my dogs KKW certified. Jason --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Jason Thomas \(Y!\)" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: Rank Recog. Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 23:20:01 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Manuel, Hopefully we do learn something everyday. >Jason?? Really I did not know one could go online and "purchase" Kukiwon >certificates. I gues you do learn something new everyday. Manuel >Maldonado --__--__-- Message: 4 From: sidtkd@aol.com Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 06:15:37 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] certification issues Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net As to the issues regarding certification, I covered many of these negative aspects in the January edition of Taekwondo Times. Yes, there is fraud, it does seem surperflous but there are issues that need some discussion. Why send money overseas? Because in other sports and endeavors people send moneys to other countries wherein the certifcations exist. Money is sent to foreign countries for sports such as baseball where we received franchise fees. People all over the world come to the US for college education and bring their money here. I feel strongly that not only should their be certification, and I could care less that the money is sent overseas as long as the process is honest! I can only hope that if ITF and WTF merge, that a new and more honest system arises. I believe in standardization. I began in the MArtS's at a time when if you had a black belt in Chung Do Kwan and wanted to switch to Oh Do Kwan you did that as a white belt. Now, did that make sense? Sid --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Todd Miller" To: Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 06:35:37 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Principles Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Grandmaster Lim has a caligraphy of Wha Won Yu that was given to him by Doju Nim Choi hanging in his dojang. He has always said that DJN Choi always taught these principles throughout his teaching days. They are Hapkido. Sincerely, Todd Miller Jungki Kwan International --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Tim" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] certification Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 07:45:54 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net What should a 1st Dan test cost, and what is the Kukiwon fee? Tim ----- Original Message ----- From: "steven riggs" To: Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2006 11:20 PM Subject: [The_Dojang] certification >I have been reading with great interest the various comments about >certification, the value of it, with whom, the expense and so on. I agree >totally with Frank that there is no such thing as a totally acceptable and >perfect certificate found on this planet. I too have wondered for many >years as to why send money to Korea when there are so many great >grandmasters and solid organizations here in America. Are we to believe >that intelligence, knowledge, and skill can only reside in Korea? I have >been in several different organizations as many serve different needs. I >have joined and been active in many cases for the benefit of my students. I >teach in NC and some of my students will be going to college in many other >parts of the USA and my name will mean nothing. An organization however can >serve as a solid point of factual information for an instructor on the >other side of the country. On the certificates I give my students under my >signature I have listed several organizations that > could be contacted to verify that I am a member in good standing and that > my ranks are in fact "legitimate". I have tested on numerous occasions and > have had the bruises, lumps and bloodied dobak to prove I didn't purchase > my rank, I earned it. I have instructors and organizations who would > verify that and I have no need to send money to a foreign country to > people who don't know me and have never seen my level of skill. > > --------------------------------- > Brings words and photos together (easily) with > PhotoMail - it's free and works with Yahoo! Mail. > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 06:37:24 -0800 (PST) From: Bruce Sims To: Ray Terry Subject: [The_Dojang] Interesting Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I have noticed an intersting pattern with the DOJANG DIGEST for the last couple of months. a.) I make a post. b.) Following that post I am unable to access the DIGEST. c.) This limitation disappears after about a week to 10 days. d.) I make another post. e.) The pattern repeats. I am currently in the fourth or fifth repeat of this cycle. This does not happen when I use another computer not my own. Anyone else having this experience? Best Wishes, Bruce __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Principles To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 06:56:27 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Grandmaster Lim has a caligraphy of Wha Won Yu that was given to him by Doju > Nim Choi hanging in his dojang. He has always said that DJN Choi always > taught these principles throughout his teaching days. When did Gm Lim begin his training under Gm Choi? Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] certification To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 07:00:54 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > What should a 1st Dan test cost, and what is the Kukiwon fee? As published on the Kukkiwon's website... Kukkiwon (WTF) Dan/Poom Fee Schedule ____________________________________ 1st Dan/Poom $70 2nd Dan/Poom $90 3rd Dan/Poom $120 4th Dan/Poom $150 5th Dan $300 6th Dan $350 7th Dan $450 8th Dan $550 9th Dan $700 Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 10 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 08:54:10 -0600 (CST) From: thomcat@binary.net (J Thomas Howard) Subject: [The_Dojang] Strawman overreactions and questions... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Michael Tomlinson said: Replying to my comment: >> I'll note: GM Ji indeed is an authority on Hapkido. However, that >> doesn't change the fact that what he says is not law. I find it >> interesting that he would say that these three concepts are not central >> to Hapkido AND that the people who talk about them have no idea what >> they are talking about. > > No one said Ji reacted or said anything like you just quoted on here???? Here is the quote I was initially replying to, from Ian Cyrus: > Moreover, he was clear on the fact that he did not know who > formulated the aforementioned principles and that those who espouses > them really do not know what they are talking about or doing for that > matter. This is of course in addition to when Mr. Cyrus said said GM Ji's Hapkido does not include as principles those three concepts. It seems very clear that indeed, GM Ji "reacted or said anything" like I mentioned. > All anyone said was that they hadn't ever heard him use those phrases to > explain Hapkido philosophy. We never mentioned anything about them not > being in Hapkido. Mr. Cyrus' phrase was: > Further, he does not subcribed [sic] to these principles. That seems to imply that those principles are not part of the basis of GM Ji's Hapkido. My question (about what are the fundamental principles of GM Ji's Hapkido) seems reasonable, since it is obvious from GM Ji's comments that those three principles are not central to his Hapkido. So what is? > If you want my opinion on this: personally I think those > philosophies are Hapkido common sense to anyone who actually does Hapkido > more than every now and then. Circular motion, descending arcs, water > principle, whew that's a revelation that should be chiseled on a rock > somewhere???...IF you don't understand this with your body while doing > Hapkido then you are missing the boat. These are teaching phrases to help > you understand basic movement...not some Hapkido manifesto to pick up a flag > with them on it and run around the Hapkido world saying "hey look I know > this about Hapkido...what is the big deal??? You sound quite upset and > affronted about what??? The fact that Ji didn't recognize something that > every blue belt should understand internally instead of making it the > eleventh commandment... What an interesting over-reaction. Here's a thought---if those Hapkido philosophies are indeed common sense, that every blue belt should understand internally, then aren't they indeed central philosophies to the art? But wait a second, GM Ji said they aren't. So maybe you should go back to something below blue belt, since you obviously are basing your movement on something that GM Ji doesn't agree with. Or maybe, just maybe, you should hold on to your comments until you understand what is going on a bit more. For example, I never said anything about chiseling on rocks, nor have I said anything about whether or not I understand or practice these principles. Your comments imply these things, with (I'll note) your usual strawman overreaction-style arguments when people don't agree with you. I'm not affronted (probably because this isn't personal for me) though I am amused---"running around with a flag" --where do you get these ideas? How about we talk about the topic, instead of the people, hmm? So, on to the topic: GM Ji says those three principles are not central to his art. You say those three principles are teaching phrases to teach basic movement, and that they are common sense to anyone who does the art. Question 1: What principles are central to GM Ji's art? I'm curious, because as I've said before, stacking techniques together doesn't make a coherent art---having a set of principles with which to bring together solid framework of movement and technique makes a coherent art, in my opinion. Question 2: Your comments show that you think those principles are indeed central to the art's motion. Yet GM Ji says they aren't. How do you reconcile that? In no case have I said that the central principles need to be enshrined. However, they do need to exist. Whether they are taught directly or not is immaterial. If a style has defining principles of movement, a competent practitioner of that are should be able to articulate them. Thomas H. ------------------------------------ thomcat@binary.net hapkido.4t.com "If you aren't modeling what you are teaching then you are teaching something else." --__--__-- Message: 11 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Rudy Timmerman Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 10:08:50 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Circular motion Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Michael writes: > ... Circular motion, descending arcs, water > principle, whew that's a revelation that should be chiseled on a rock > somewhere???...IF you don't understand this with your body while doing > Hapkido then you are missing the boat. These are teaching phrases > to help > you understand basic movement... I think Michael hit the nail here. I have seen GM JI perform in demos a few times, and I have never seen him NOT use circular motion. Mind you... I am just assuming from the few times that I have actually seen him perform that at least one of these principles is embodied in his Hap KI Do. In no way am I an authority on his teaching. Suffice it to say that a large number of Korean martial art practitioners use these concepts in everything they do, and I am confident that we are not practicing a Japanese martial art. IMHO, too much patriotism gets in the way of the natural evolution of martial arts. I have not only seen GM Ji perform circular motion, I have seen the same thing in martial arts from China, India, Brazil, and a host of other places. I am sure that these folks are not all following some ancient Japanese martial art. When your life depends on winning a battle or a single fight... one gets to some serious studying on what works regardless where you live. Rudy --__--__-- Message: 12 From: "Christopher Gunkle" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 09:13:29 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] symbol Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I appreciate the response, however I am quite familiar with um/yang.  The symbol I was referring to is similar, but with red, blue and yellow.  What is the meaning? Message: 13 From: "Tim" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] (no subject) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 13:43:31 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Chris, The red or um, = positive energy of the universe. Blue or yang = negative energy. Tim ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Gunkle" To: Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2006 10:51 AM Subject: [The_Dojang] (no subject) >I was reading a post, maybe a month ago, regarding a symbol similar to > um/yang, however it had red, blue, and yellow. I cannot remember, > however what the meaning of this is. If anybody can help, I would > appreciate it. Thank You, Chris --__--__-- Message: 13 Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 08:00:40 -0800 (PST) From: Jeremy Anderson Subject: Starting as a white belt (was: Re: [The_Dojang] certification issues) To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Personally, I see no problem starting over as a white belt. As each system/school/instructor approaches the Martial Arts from a different perspective -- and has its own strengths and weaknesses -- I have trouble justifying deserving my rank when I switch. It's like saying that because I have a Masters degree in Engineering, that I should automatically get a Masters in Theology when I switch programs. Though certainly the differences between two styles of TKD aren't so exteme. I've started over as a white belt nine times now and firmly believe that doing so has done nothing but strengthen my Art. Jeremy Anderson. --- sidtkd@aol.com wrote: > I began in the MArtS's at a time > when if > you had a black belt in Chung Do Kwan and wanted to switch to Oh Do > Kwan you > did that as a white belt. Now, did that make sense? > > Sid __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest