Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 12:52:26 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 13 #87 - 11 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,100 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Foundation Principles of Hapkido (Chosondo@aol.com) 2. Re: Interesting (Ray) 3. Re: Certification (Luc Nguyen) 4. Yu, Won, Wha (Burdick, Dakin Robert) 5. Response to Sid (Frank Clay) 6. Yu, Won, Hap (Wha) principle (mdealba@pacbell.net) 7. Principles (Bruce Sims) 8. GM Ji's Teachings (Chosondo@aol.com) 9. RE: Circular motion (michael tomlinson) 10. Re: Circular motion (Ray) 11. RE: Circular motion (Erik Brann) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Chosondo@aol.com Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 11:48:56 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Foundation Principles of Hapkido Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ladies and Gentlemen: Since the question of the inclusion of Yu, Won, Wha into the practice of Hapkido was prosed the discussion has been interesting and lively. All of you have made some very valid points. Our predecessors such as Sokaku Takeda, Choi Yong Sul, Ji Han Jae and others have pointed the "way" for us. Their contribution have gotten us to where we are, now it's up to us to redefine each in our personal experience what this art is going to mean for future generations of practitioners. One of you made the comment that only historians would be interested in the who did what when and where. To that I say, having a sense of the original intent of those who created, dicovered, or founded something gives tremendous insight. It helps to light the way so we know where we are going. For example, knowing that Four Corner (Direction) Immobilization/Throw (Shihonage [Jap.])/(Sa Bang Gogi/Dunjigi (kor.) is actually a sword skill designed to address the attack of opponents from different directions that was adapted to unarmed combat gives insight into the overall tone of the technique. Further, having been a Kenjitsu (Itto Tenshin Ryu) student for the past 16 yrs and having studied the first 118 skills of Daito Ryu (a sword oriented art) I can say (at least for me) that my understanding of this skill has some depth. I say this knowing that it does not mean much in the grand scheme of things. Also I might add that when GM Ji teaches this skill (even though he does not refer to it by any name), he teaches it as a multi-directional skill. I find that inetresting... Now allow me to explore another Hapkido trivia. Choi Yong Sul had a contemporary. His name was (is) Jang In Mook. As far as I know and unlike Choi was the only Korean (at that time) to have a provable lineage to Sokaku Takeda and Daito Ryu. From what I can gather, he was a doctor of Oriental Medicine (which was his main focus) and taught his art (Yawara) on a limited basis. What contribution if any did he make to what we now know as Hapkido? Are there students of his now out there teaching? If so what? I Have discussed this personality with GM Ji and GM Suh Bok Sup. They both have acknowledge him but, not much else. Ian A. Cyrus, Headmaster International Chosondo Federation Choson Kwon Bup - Hapkido - Taekwondo 7252 Valley Ave Philadelphia, PA 19128 215-483-5057 www.chosondo.com --__--__-- Message: 2 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Interesting To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 08:54:26 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > I have noticed an intersting pattern with the DOJANG > DIGEST for the last couple of months. > > a.) I make a post. > b.) Following that post I am unable to access the DIGEST. > c.) This limitation disappears after about a week to 10 days. > d.) I make another post. > e.) The pattern repeats. > > I am currently in the fourth or fifth repeat of this cycle. By "access the digest" do you mean the emails stop appearing in your inbox after you post an email to the list? If so, I know of nothing that could cause that on this end. ??? Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Luc Nguyen" To: Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 12:01:13 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Certification Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net steven riggs wrote: “I have been reading with great interest the various comments about certification, the value of it, with whom, the expense and so on. I agree totally with Frank that there is no such thing as a totally acceptable and perfect certificate found on this planet. I too have wondered for many years as to why send money to Korea when there are so many great grandmasters and solid organizations here in America. Are we to believe that intelligence, knowledge, and skill can only reside in Korea? “ Not that I disagree with you but just to play devil advocate. To apply your argument to the academic world then why would anyone want a degree from Harvard or Stanford when there are many other perfectly good schools in your state or your country. As long as there is a perceived value then people still continue to pay for it. That perceived value is high or low depends on each person point of view. The obvious next questions are where does that perception come from? and if we don’t believe it then how do we shatter that myth? I can think of a few reasons for the myth and perception. I am not saying that these reasons are good or right but something I have heard over the years: 1) TKD/HKD is from Korea, so it is better if the credential is from there also. 2) Korea turns out better black belts (on the average) than other countries 3) You should learn Korean arts from a Korean 4) ..... I have seen many people on this list agree with Steve’s statement above but I have not seen anybody articulate a plan to change that perception. May be by improving the quality of instruction, lower the price, better organization, less politic, or even better marketing? LTN -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.15.10/263 - Release Date: 2/16/2006 --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 12:03:15 -0500 From: "Burdick, Dakin Robert" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Yu, Won, Wha Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Craig Stovall writes: >If it is true that these three guiding principles are at the core of Aiki-jujutsu, and AJJ is at the technical core of Hapkido, then does it not stand to reason that most Hapkido techniques are grounded in these same principles (whether the Koreans say so or not). First off, we all know that the use of Japanese terminology for a Korean art (even one derived from a Japanese style) does not rub a lot of Koreans the right way. Secondly, the terminology we use to describe an art, especially if they are deemed guiding principles, actually defines the art. If we say that yielding (yu), circular movement (won), and harmony (wha) are the guiding principles, then we de-emphasize the percussive, linear, and confrontational aspects of the art. Aikido (yielding, circular movement, and harmonious) is a subset of the techniques of Aikijutsu, the root art of hapkido. Was it only Dr. Kimm who wrote about yu, won & wha? I seem to recall GM Kwang-Sik Myung also talking about those principles, but I don't have my copy of his book handy. I think a more interesting question is why those instructors chose to concentrate on those principles. The IHF folks have a long time connection with Japanese aikido, so their connection is easy to figure out. Why do others concentrate on those principles? Let me add one more item, in that our federation, the USHF has traditionally had the following paper topics for our first ranks of black belt: 1st dan - Kunja 2nd dan - Way of the Water 3rd dan - Meditation I am not sure, but I think these were originally the topics chosen by GM Ki-Duk Lee back in the 1970s, who was a Jidokwan man and former Blue House security personnel, which at that time would connect him with GM Han-Jae Ji. Does GM Ji ever talk about the "way of the water?" Yu is sometimes described as "the way of the water." Yours in the arts, Dakin dakinburdick@yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Frank Clay" To: Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 11:36:27 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Response to Sid Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sid, That is not a valid reason to do so. According to federal law, no American athlete can be forced to obtain a certification from another country to participate in a sport, couple with the Stevens Amendments. Here is a brief overview with a link to more information: http://edweb6.educ.msu.edu/kin866/lawoasa.htm f. --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "mdealba@pacbell.net" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 13:30:31 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Yu, Won, Hap (Wha) principle Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "So then what are the defining principles of Hapkido, for those who don't use Water, Circle, and Harmony?" This is exactly my point. It appears that were are talking about the same thing but from different perspectives, or even names of concepts. If the Yu, Won, Hap principles are new to some, the Water, Circle and Harmony concepts should not be new. Those have been in print since I can remember. Well, that IS Yu, Won, Hap (Wha), and as I stated before, they are part of the Tae Guk - Umm/Yang philosopy. Only relating to the Umm (soft) component. I'll repeat: Umm - Yu (Soft, Yielding)- IE: WATER Principle - Won (Circular, Flowing) - IE: CIRCLE Principle - Hap (To Unite, Bring Together)- IE: HARMONY Principle It has been there (a part of HKD) all along. It just may not have been explained in these terms. Umm/Yang was ALWAYS stressed to me in HRD, and maybe becuase my HKD was so connected to HRD, maybe, that is the difference. And, BTW, this information given to me from both Korean (Master Park, Dae Won and GM Lee, Joo Bang for example) and American instructors (Master James Gordon and Master Jin O Kang, for example). Interesting indeed... Hope this helps. With brotherhood, Grand Master De Alba -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 10:36:16 -0800 (PST) From: Bruce Sims To: Ray Terry Subject: [The_Dojang] Principles Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I get the feeling that we are painting with awfully big brushes and awfully big strokes here. How about considering the following list of resources. HAPKIDO - Art of Masters (Myung; 1976) pg 33-34 do a great job of characterizing the Three Principles mentioned without actually identifying them as such. This wouls suggest to me that Myung viewed these as Attributes to practice, though not principles in their own right. Myung does mention principles {"philosophy of Hapkido" (pg 23)} but these seem more Confucian philosophy ("Righteousness", "Courtesy", "Patience") than points for martial practice. In his most recent series of books (HAPKIDO TEXT BOOK 1-5) no mention is made at all. Introduction of Hapkido - (Jee; ) Writing his book under the aegis of the IHA (sic) Jee identifies three "goals" including the Principle of Harmony", "Principle of Circular Movement" and "Principle of Current Flow". I have not been able to date this work though I surmise it is of recent authorship. HAPKIDO (Vol 1) - (Kimm - 1991) References Won, Hwa, Hyo on pg 88-89. However he also references Won,Hwa Hyo in his work KUK SOOL WON. KUKSOOLWON (Vol 2) - (Suh - 1993) References Hwa, Won Hyo on page 23-24. Interestingly I find no mention made in his "Red Book" (1987). For comparison lets go across the water to Japan. DAITO-RYU AIKIJUJUTSU (Kondo; 2000) Identifies "6 Principles of Training" (sic) though these sound more like attributes IE"eye contact....distancing.... breathing....correct formal personal conduct...Lingering Mind....unbalancing". There is also a brief mention of atemi. YAWARA (Katsuya Terada) Also lists qualities suchas "relaxation" and "swiftness" but does not identify governing Principles. TRADITIONAL AIKIDO (Series 1-5) (Saito; 1995) Seems to teeter on the cusp. At first glance his explanation of attributes may mirror Kondo's attributes, but also present are references to "triangle' of later "Square, Circle, Triangle" fame a close relative of the Hapkido Three Principles. (pg 26-42) reference to these latter icons are not found in Shioda (DYNAMIC AIKIDO), Yamada (AIKIDO COMPLETE), Saotome (THE PRINCIPLES OF AIKIDO. Saotome DOES list "the Five Principles as Taught by the Founder (pg 17) in his work, AIKIDO AND THE HARMONY OF NATURE but these do not seem to correlate well with the Hapkido principles under discussion. KODOKAN JUDO (Kano; 1986) Once again identifies attributes such as "off-balancing" (Kuzushi), tsukuri and Kake (positioning) and "Ukemi" (safe falling). No principles are mentioned as such. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Chosondo@aol.com Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 14:21:35 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] GM Ji's Teachings Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Just because GM Ji does not make direct reference to Yu, Won, Wha, it does not mean that these principles are not embodied in his teachings. Those of us who have had the pleasure and privelege of spending time on the mat with him know better. I'll just let it go at that... Ian A. Cyrus, Headmaster International Chosondo Federation Choson Kwon Bup - Hapkido - Taekwondo 7252 Valley Ave Philadelphia, PA 19128 215-483-5057 www.chosondo.com --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Circular motion Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 19:57:31 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net As J.R. West, Rudy Timmerman, and Michael D'Alba have so eloquently explained more than I ever could....no one says these principles don't exist....they exist in everything..and yes in Sin Moo Hapkido... For Doju Nim Ji: it is exactly what G.M. Timmerman observed when seeing him demonstrate Hapkido... he uses circular motion and descending arcs on basically every technique he does..his descending arc techniques have made me almost pee on myself more than once from the pain....all he says afterwords is "very painful like torture" with a mishievous smile on his face,,. he also uses the small circle to big circle principle that GM West has explained on here many times and forgive me for chopping it up...J.R. can explain it MUCH better than me... If you do Hapkido past a blue belt level you should understand this stuff without it being some big deal...that's all I'm saying, and I have a feeling that if you ask Doju Nim Ji about it he would wonder why you are even asking him about it when you are at that level...sometimes when you ask him about something he has already taught you or that is pretty obvious from just the act of practicing Hapkido he takes it as you didn't pay attention and then the second lesson will be VERY painful to you...he has also told us this is how Choi taught him...and he has the scars to show it..he told us Choi expected you to get the lesson the first time.....he is not mean but expects you to give 100 percent on the mat, physically and mentally... IMHO asking a GM about this basic stuff after being in Hapkido for a while would be like asking an Olympic wrestler why lowering your weight and bending your knees is so central to the act of stand up wrestling? They would have to think either you have never wrestled or maybe you wrestled too much and landed on your head....these are teaching phrases that explain the basics of Hapkido movement and technique application...that's ALL....but somehow they have turned into some sort of gospel or something larger than what they stand for....and I might add with some emotional fervor for some people.. this is why I couldn't understand anyone jumping on Ji about not making these issues such a big "central to Hapkido doctrine" or "he is not the law when it comes to Hapkido" or "his is not the only type of Hapkido", What are you talking about??? It ain't no big deal.... Sin Moo Hapkido uses everything mentioned and if we were where you could see visually I could totally explain it in the techniques that would fit everyone's theory of the three principles....it's just that those principles are very very very basic to Hapkido and any other grappling and joint locking martial art....that's all...so some see the trees while other see the forest...it still don't mean nothing...train hard with a smile on your face and sweat on your forehead and then everything will be alright...IMHO that is why GM Chong S. Kim said to just go train...and that is why Doju Nim Ji disregarded talking about this stuff....as some have observed many other Korean Masters have also stated... I know for a fact that most of these great Hapkido Masters Korean and American have the mindset of the learning is in the doing and not the theorizing, intellictualizing, etc... like my dad used to say to me..."if you look at a horse pulling a wagon too long you might start to think the wagon is pushing the horse"!! "now go work boy"..... Michael Tomlinson --__--__-- Message: 10 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Circular motion To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 12:34:51 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > For Doju Nim Ji: it is exactly what G.M. Timmerman observed when seeing him > demonstrate Hapkido... he uses circular motion and descending arcs on > basically every technique he does..his descending arc techniques have made > me almost pee on myself more than once from the pain....all he says > afterwords is "very painful like torture" with a mishievous smile on his > face,,. For those that haven't spent time with Gm Ji, he doesn't spend a lot of time explaining things in fancy terms... he just does it. About the only thing he wastes a lot of words on are the 9 Rules of Sin Moo Hapkido. The rest of the time he explains things with single word or short phrases and the use of his hands. e.g. "Toes.?." with his hand motioning the direction they should be pointing. His English is pretty good, imho, but he doesn't think so. Thus he is frequently hesitant to waste time explaining things or using catchy terms for obvious concepts, he just shows you and shows you and corrects you and corrects you. Gm Choi was very similar in this teaching. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "Erik Brann" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Circular motion Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 15:41:34 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net When I visited GM Rim in Baltimore, he used lots of circles to toss me around like a rag doll. I have never had more fun getting turned inside out and upside down. I gotta get back down there. -----Original Message----- From: Ray [mailto:rterry@idiom.com] Sent: Friday, February 17, 2006 3:35 PM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Circular motion > For Doju Nim Ji: it is exactly what G.M. Timmerman observed when > seeing him demonstrate Hapkido... he uses circular motion and > descending arcs on basically every technique he does..his descending > arc techniques have made me almost pee on myself more than once from > the pain....all he says afterwords is "very painful like torture" with > a mishievous smile on his face,,. For those that haven't spent time with Gm Ji, he doesn't spend a lot of time explaining things in fancy terms... he just does it. About the only thing he wastes a lot of words on are the 9 Rules of Sin Moo Hapkido. The rest of the time he explains things with single word or short phrases and the use of his hands. e.g. "Toes.?." with his hand motioning the direction they should be pointing. His English is pretty good, imho, but he doesn't think so. Thus he is frequently hesitant to waste time explaining things or using catchy terms for obvious concepts, he just shows you and shows you and corrects you and corrects you. Gm Choi was very similar in this teaching. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest