Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 03:01:16 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 13 #88 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,100 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Limitation (Beungood8@aol.com) 2. Respectful disagreement with Frank (sidtkd@aol.com) 3. Re: Jeremy Anderson's point (sidtkd@aol.com) 4. RE: Circular motion (Stovall, Craig) 5. Yu, Won, Hap (Wha) principle (mdealba@pacbell.net) 6. old but interesting article (Ray Terry) 7. Re: Certification (Manuel Maldonado) 8. RE: Re: Certification (Jason Thomas (Y!)) 9. Re: Re: Certification (Ray) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Beungood8@aol.com Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 15:50:45 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Limitation Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 2/17/2006 11:37:31 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes: I have noticed an intersting pattern with the DOJANG DIGEST for the last couple of months. a.) I make a post. b.) Following that post I am unable to access the DIGEST. c.) This limitation disappears after about a week to 10 days. d.) I make another post. e.) The pattern repeats. I am currently in the fourth or fifth repeat of this cycle. This does not happen when I use another computer not my own. Anyone else having this experience? Best Wishes, Bruce Have you noticed the Limos with tinted windows following you around? --__--__-- Message: 2 From: sidtkd@aol.com Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 16:17:45 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Respectful disagreement with Frank Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Frank, Your point is well taken regarding the Steven's Amendment. But, the catch here is this. You don't HAVE to have a kukkiwon certificate to participate in taekwondo including sanctioned tournaments. All the certification is, is acceptance worldwide of your rank. No one is compelling anyone to send one red cent overseas. Sid --__--__-- Message: 3 From: sidtkd@aol.com Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 16:23:49 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Jeremy Anderson's point Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jeremy, I certainly respect your dedication in starting over 9 times! But if I were in a Bachelor of Arts program in one school and transferred to another, I know much would transfer with me. In two similar Korean arts, it would be ridiculous to start from scratch. Now if I were in Judo and switched to Kempo...THAT is a totally different story. The rationale for starting from white belt is only for money. Sid --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 15:33:26 -0600 From: "Stovall, Craig" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Circular motion Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <<>> Mike...I agree 100% with what you're saying. I think something else that is operating here (and somehow I think you'll agree) is the fact that we as martial artists LOVE to talk about things in a very sublime and esoteric context. In fact, it's usually the esoteric and mysterious nature of the arts (at least on the surface) that draws many folks into this world in the first place. As such, we sometimes cling to these useful (albeit simple) models of how we should approach training, and in doing so turn them into these grand universal principles while forgetting that they are nothing more than useful mental associations to communicate complex ideas in as few words as possible. Being "like water" sounds a whole lot sexier than "managing one's residual muscle tension" or "using anatomical structure to facilitate technique as opposed to muscular force". Now, I hope the folks that really hang their hats on this principles stuff don't think I'm trying to poo-poo on their parade, but it can't be said enough that we start to tread a dangerous path when we turn the arts into something that "the old guys have already figured out for us". All martial arts are a work in process (our own transient nature prevents us from seeing this), and as they evolve these maps, models, and (gasp) principles will change to reflect the changing nature of the art/style/system. Whew...too much thinking...not enough training. I also liked Bruce's points about these things being favorable attributes that have somehow been elevated to principle status. I think he'd agree with my earlier point that these are really just "models" to describe complex ideas, and it's actually quite humorous to see the models elevated to such high status. I also liked Dakin's points to the effect that these very same ideas can actually lead to closed thinking. It had also dawned on me the question as to where the more linear and violent aspects of Hapkido fit in if one only used those three "principles" from which to base one's thinking and application. He beat me to the punch (pardon the pun). Interesting discussion to say the least. In the end, I suspect most people will hold onto their positions more passionately than before, but I can't help but think that there will be a few who will walk away with that same odd feeling we all had when we found out that Bobby Ewing really HADN'T been dead all season (obscure reference for all you TV buffs out there). --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "mdealba@pacbell.net" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 17:07:41 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Yu, Won, Hap (Wha) principle Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net It appears that my original reply didn't get through, so, I'll try to reconstruct it so as to complete the idea I was trying to get across in this other reply. Basically, I was stating that the Yu, Won, Hap principles were ALWAYS taught to me in both HKD as well as in HRD. Since my focus has been HRD, that is where I really evolved the Umm/Yang concept. This all is a part of the Tae Guk, Umm/Yang philosophy. Umm / Yang are to reflect two opposite components of "one whole". By the existence of the opposite, each one attains wholeness. IE: By the existence of high, then low has true meaning. Lightness completes darkness, Hard and Soft, etc. It is useful to understand that the Umm / Yang philosophy goes beyond the "opposites as part of the one" aspect and Umm / Yang are comprised of three elements each. It has been drilled into me that Umm and Yang are both comprised of three elements. They are: Umm - Yu (Soft, Yielding) - Won (Circular, Flowing) - Hap (To Unite, Bring Together) Yang - Kang (Hard, Unyielding) - Kok (Linear, Angular) - Kan (To Separate, Keep Apart) As one can see, they are reciprocal to each other in terms of components of the two Umm / Yang elements. If you can imagine a "hard technique" and a similar "soft technique" you will see their correlations manifest in a tangible manner. For example, take a punch defense. Hard technique (Such as a common TKD move): Middle block, reverse punch to ribs (most likely followed by a foot sweep and stomp or down punch, etc). The block is hard and angular, the contact causes space, and the punch can crack the ribs. Think of a hard ball bullet in relation to the energy. In the end the technique and follow ups have a tendancy to keep distance. Soft technique (Such as a common HKD move): Inward parry, circle hand, trap, counter palm to ribs (most likely followed with an outside wrist lock, throw, lock up, etc) The parry is soft and circular and causes a joining of opponents, the wrist is held and controlled, the palm strike will attack an internal organ, and the energy will blow out the rear. Think of a hollow point bullet in terms of the energy involved. In the end, the technique and follow ups will bring opponents together. In this way a more full understanding of the Umm / Yang concept and it's applications to our martial art(s) and the actual techniques will begin to unfold. Hope this helps. With brotherhood, Grand Master De Alba -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 14:51:04 -0800 From: "Ray Terry" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] old but interesting article Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net [The Dawn of Modern Korea] Trying to Bring the House Down Korea Times By Andrei Lankov On Jan. 16, 1968, a bus left a top secret North Korean military base in Hwanghae Province. The passengers were officers of the elite 'Unit 124,' young and fit soldiers in their mid-20s. That evening they departed for a special mission in Seoul. Their morale was high: the soldiers believed that their operation would hasten the collapse of the 'puppet regime' in the South. They were given the password for passing through the DMZ on their way back, but they understood: the chance they would ever get to use the password was close to zero. Theirs was a mission of no return. The 31 North Korean commandos were supposed to attack the Blue House, the official residence of the South Korean presidents. At some point in 1966 the North Korean leaders (in all probability, Kim Il-sung himself) decided that the South was ripe for a Vietnamese-style revolution. This was a gross misjudgement, but for a few years Pyongyang acted in accordance with this assumption. Thousands of Koreans on both sides of the DMZ paid with their lives for this miscalculation. 'Unit 124' was trained for guerrilla and terrorist activities in the South. The unit included a number of Southerners who had moved to the North, with their parents, prior to or during the Korean War. This is yet another reminder that the entire Korean conflict was essentially a civil war where Koreans fought Koreans. It took almost two years to train the would-be assassins. In early January, the participants of the raid were trained in a specially constructed model of the Blue House. Everything was well rehearsed. Initially the operation went smoothly. The commandos crossed the DMZ unnoticed, changed into South Korean army uniforms and began their advance on Seoul. They slept during the day and moved at night. And then the unexpected happened. On Jan. 19, they came across a group of woodcutters. The logic of this operation required such unlucky civilians to be killed on the spot. But 'Unit 124' were an idealistic bunch. They fought to liberate the South, not to kill innocent people! Thus, the woodcutters were set free after a crash course in Communist ideology. Once released, they rushed to the police, of course. The lesson was learned, and in later decades North Korean commandos treated unwanted witnesses in a more conventional manner. However, even tipped off by the woodcutters the South Korean police did not manage to intercept the group. Of course, the scale of the problem was underestimated, too. In the years 1966-1968 North Korean raids were a common part of border zone life and happened regularly. Nonetheless, security in the South was tightened. By early Sunday morning, Jan. 21, the group approached its destination. Everything now was going as planned. After a daytime break, they marched toward the Blue House. At 10:10 p.m., the North Koreans were merely three hundred meters away from the Blue House gates. Suddenly, they were stopped by a police patrol and asked for identification. They insisted that they were soldiers of a special counter-intelligence unit returning to barracks. However, Choe Kyu-sik, the commander of the Chongno police station, found the group very suspicious. In the midst of the argument, one of the North Koreans lost his nerve and opened fire; a gunfight ensued. Choe was killed on the spot but he had raised the alarm, so the Southerners were not caught unprepared. The Northerners began to withdraw under heavy fire. About a dozen commandos were killed on the spot. During the fighting, a North Korean soldier threw a hand grenade into a city bus, killing and wounding its passengers. Eventually, 27 out of 31 North Koreans were either killed or committed suicide to avoid capture. Some 40 South Koreans died in the fighting as well. The fate of three commandos remained unknown. Much later it was learned that at least one of them managed to return safely to the North, where he later became an army general. There was only one prisoner – Kim Sin-jo, a son of South Korean migrants. He was the commander of a squad responsible for killing everybody on the ground floor of the Blue House. Nowadays, he is a popular Christian minister in Seoul. The Blue House raid was one of the most bizarre incidents in the history of two Korean states, but Seoul attempted to retaliate in an equally peculiar manner. Fortunately, this attempt was also unsuccessful. But that is another story… --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Manuel Maldonado" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 14:58:34 -0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Certification Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net As most of you on this list know I am both ITF and KKW certified..... I trained in Korea (while stationed there) I attained my 1st & 2nd Dan KKW while in Korea (1982-1987) I took my test at the Kukiwon I arrived in Korea as an ITF 1st Degree... I trained off post with an all Korean school and I would never trade or change my experience I strongly feel that a "Korean" art should be monitored by the Koreans. I stress KKW Certification because deep down in my heart and soul I feel that the KKW or the WTF will never go through what we the ITFers went through a couple of years back when Gen Choi passed away. A good example of this is I contacted a high ranking ITF official about looking into my promotion date. There is at least a year between my KATU certificate (signed by GM Hwang) and my ITF Certificate (Signed by Chang Ung) I was told that the certificate signed by GM Hwang was no good. Man, and he's a 9th Degree ( K-9-1 ) promoted by the General himself. Left me baffeled so until the ITF gets their $#!t together I will continue to issue KKW Certification to my students. At least I know that this organization is not going anywhere anytime soon. I understand that most people like myself , Master Timmerman and a few others that are capable of "signing" our own Dan Jungs but my question has always been this..... Lets say I dont know Master  T and one of my students come to him?... I understand Master Timmerman is Hap Ki Do and Im TKD so before you all jump on me Im just using the Master as an example. If we both belonged to the KKW "my student" wouldnt have to go through the regular rigamaroe that say someone else might have too. I know of some schools here in Greenville South Carolina that are KKW schools and teach different poomse and I had a friend of mine send his son to another school because he moved to the other side of town the "new" sabum wouldnt accept him as a 2nd Dan because the kid did not know the Pal Gue poomse. But still took him as a 2nd Dan ( because of his KKW Poom Jung) but before he could be promoted to 3rd Poom the boy had to learn a 8 of the Pal Gues; which the kid ended up quitting Tae Kwon-Do altogether. I feel that not knowing the Hyungs of one school versus the tuls/Poomse of another school dosnt take away what the student actually knows. My 2 cents... Master Manuel Maldonado  --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Jason Thomas \(Y!\)" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: Certification Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 20:52:10 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net The Harvard analogy is off. If you want a Harvard degree, you have to attend Harvard and graduate. You are taught there, tested etc... Harvard does not issue Bachelorate Certification Authority to all of its graduates with Master Degrees and allow those individuals to charge people fees and recommend them for Bachelor's Degrees. You have to enroll in the school, and pass. Then you graduate. Not have a senior alum send in a recommendation with a fee. The bottom line is that many people blow with the wind. I've seen people waffle back and forth between WTF is good, ITF is better. ITF was good till someone made me angry, WTF promoted me etc... People should have more self-confidence and get on the mat and train, their skill and experience will show. --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Certification To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 19:24:13 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > ... I stress KKW > Certification because deep down in my heart and soul I feel that the KKW > or the WTF will never go through what we the ITFers went through a couple > of years back when Gen Choi passed away. Gotta agree with you here. This, imho, is one of the reasons Gen. Choi was removed as head of the KTA. The SK gov didn't want a one-man organization/art that would splinter or collapse when the leader died. Kim Un-yong "dies" (goes to jail) and the WTF & Kukkiwon continue on as strong as ever. The only one-man org/art that I can think of right now that seemed to get around this problem was Kano's Judo. He was pretty much in control from the beginning until his death (is that accurate?) and things continued on without missing a beat after he passed. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest