Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 14:54:20 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 13 #89 - 11 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,100 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. RE: certification (Thomas Gordon) 2. RE: Re: Certification (Thomas Gordon) 3. Sid Question (Frank Clay) 4. Re: certification (Tim) 5. Principles (Bruce Sims) 6. Martial Arts in Nepal No Longer Illegal (Ray Terry) 7. Jackson Is Coming (katkelly) 8. Was taekyon banned by the Choson court (Ray) 9. Re: Interesting (tim walker) 10. WTF/ITF Rank Certification/ U.S. versus International certification (Dan Scholten) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Thomas Gordon" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] certification Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 00:45:55 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net The cost that Master Terry posted is the actual funds required by KKW. That does not include the actual testing, overhead in filling out the paperwork and sending it off. Some instructors don't charge anything because it's figured into their monthly fees, they do it as a hobby, or they're going out of business and may not know it or can't figure out why they keep having to use their paycheck to help make the rent. Some instructors charge $50-100 per dahn for having the rank (read invested time/money) to perform the examination. Some instructors charge big money because they are basically ripping off --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Thomas Gordon" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: Certification Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 00:46:36 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net When it comes to bigger organizations, it's easier for things to slip through. There are people who certify themselves. Or higher ranks that trade certifications. Even worse, there are frauds out there who used photoshop to alter certifications from one organization and get it cross ranked into another. Perhaps on the same level was a fella that forged a GM signature on a phony certificate. Then the dope somehow got it sent back to the GM that he forged! What a piece of crap.....well...er...in my opinion. I just shake my head at these types of people, I got into martial arts to learn martial arts. Rank is cool and all but it's not the motivating factor. Learning what EARNS that rank is the really kewl part. Man, learning to do TKD kicks was amazing. Not that silly kids stuff that should be called "childs dance" instead of TKD. Watching those crazy ju-jitsu (traditional) do the "belly flops" and back falls was simply staggering. I couldn't wait to try it....and man did it hurt! LOL! The problem with the phony ranked morons mentioned above is that they're always caught. At some point they'll be asked to demonstrate and it'll show. They'll sit along the side lines or fall back on, "oh, I'd love to but I'm taking pictures," or they'll claim to be injured, or do some type of circus trick that has little bearing on martial arts. Thomas Gordon Florida --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Frank Clay" To: Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 07:49:50 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Sid Question Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sid, It's been a while since I dealt with this but I was under the impression that you had to have a Kukkiwon to participate in sanctioned tournaments? If not, then I feel better about it. I think to be an Olympian you do, but that’s like 1% of the population (actually probably more like .1%). I think that as long as you deal with a reputable organization, and you are getting what you need in terms of knowledge and growth, then you are likely doing the best you can. No one can really ask for more. f. --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Tim" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] certification Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 09:39:29 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I asked because where I am the 1 Dan testing is $225.00. If you want to register with KKW they want an additional $150.00. Thanks, Tim ----- Original Message ----- From: "Thomas Gordon" To: Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2006 1:45 AM Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] certification > The cost that Master Terry posted is the actual funds required by KKW. > That does not include the actual testing, overhead in filling out the > paperwork and sending it off. > > Some instructors don't charge anything because it's figured into their > monthly fees, they do it as a hobby, or they're going out of business > and may not know it or can't figure out why they keep having to use > their paycheck to help make the rent. > > Some instructors charge $50-100 per dahn for having the rank (read > invested time/money) to perform the examination. > > Some instructors charge big money because they are basically ripping off > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 06:58:44 -0800 (PST) From: Bruce Sims To: Ray Terry Subject: [The_Dojang] Principles Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "......Now, I hope the folks that really hang their hats on this principles stuff don't think I'm trying to poo-poo on their parade, but it can't be said enough that we start to tread a dangerous path when we turn the arts into something that "the old guys have already figured out for us". All martial arts are a work in process (our own transient nature prevents us from seeing this), and as they evolve these maps, models, and (gasp) principles will change to reflect the changing nature of the art/style/system. Whew...too much thinking...not enough training. I also liked Bruce's points about these things being favorable attributes that have somehow been elevated to principle status. I think he'd agree with my earlier point that these are really just "models" to describe complex ideas, and it's actually quite humorous to see the models elevated to such high status. I also liked Dakin's points to the effect that these very same ideas can actually lead to closed thinking...." Getting a little scary when I read two posts from Craig that I fully and completely agree with. When researching Hapkido I am finding that from the point of view of an intellectual structure Hapkido is MUCH closer to ju-jutsu than late Aikido. As I pointed out in my post a survey of literature seems to support this. I have no quarrel with IHF or Myong advocates who would like to pull the Hapkido and Aikido arts together. For myself I don't know that the fundamental art is well served with the addition of cosmology. Like Mike's (Tomlinson) comment on lowering the center of gravity in wrestling I think we ought keep things pragmatic. KISS, yes? Best Wishes, Bruce __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 07:03:26 -0800 From: "Ray Terry" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Martial Arts in Nepal No Longer Illegal Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Martial Arts in Nepal No Longer Illegal 'We faced a lot of problems at its beginning,' said Taekwondo coach Sitkar Raj Bhandari. Martial art schools of taekwando karate and kung fu now wildly popular in Nepal have come a long way since the days of being an outlawed activity in the country. These martial arts arrived in Nepal in the 1970s. Participants had to practice in secret or risk punishment if they were seen by the police. Instructors and classes went underground, much like training for Maoists these days. "We faced a lot of problems at its beginning," said Taekwondo coach Sitkar Raj Bhandari. "I used to give training to players escaping from the police. So we didn't have proper place to practice. We did keep moving so they wouldn't find us." "The society of that time also treated us badly. They thought we were criminals. So it was quite difficult," said chief master of Nepalese kyokushin karate Jagat Gauchan. "But we never stopped and as a result, martial arts in Nepal is now enjoyed by everyone," he said. Slowly and gradually martial arts became accepted by society and people became interested. Also, authorities felt pressured to make it legal. Gauchan was instrumental in making it legal. In 1983, the Patron of National Sports Council His Royal highness semi-crown Prince Dhirendra Shah gave the green light to make martial arts legal. After it was legalized, many people were interested. Parents also forced their children to practice. Slowly martial arts became part of people's daily life. Today more than 14 karate associations are functioning. Thousands of players from different parts of Nepal are playing different karate. Taekwando is also very famous among Nepalese as well as other marital arts Nepal has very bright future in martial arts. Nepalese players are performing very well on the international level. The Nepalese government needs to continue to support martial arts so its competitors can boost the nation's reputation. --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 09:25:57 -0600 From: "katkelly" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Jackson Is Coming Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Don't forget the Jackson Seminar is this coming weekend. I am looking forwrd to seeing all my friends and partners as well as meeting new ones. Kat ________________________________________________________________ Sent via the EV1 webmail system at mail.ev1.net --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Ray To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 09:36:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] Was taekyon banned by the Choson court Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Forwarding... I received the following query from a fellow who's working on a dissertation regarding the practice of martial arts in Korea during the late 19th century (before and during the colonial period). (Since I'm unfamiliar with the subject, I don't understand his concern over "starting a flame war".) Thank you, Matthew Benuska "My questions are: 1) Does anyone have any evidence to support the assertion that the Choson Court banned the civilian practice of martial arts? 2) Does anyone have any evidence that the Japanese Government General did, and if so, any evidence of enforcement of this ban? 3) Were there any legitimate (i.e. legal) privately run martial arts schools in Korea prior to 1945? 4) Were the martial arts used by kkangp'ae learned in Japanese run public schools prior to the introduction MA into the public school curriculum in 1920, were they learned "underground," or was it a combination of the two? " _____ From: Joseph Cheavens [mailto:jcheavens@hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2006 7:40 AM To: nuski@verizon.net Subject: Taekyong and Korean MA in Late Choson and Colonial Korea Dear Mr. Benuski: I posted the following and was recommended by one of the members there to consult with you on this issue. I hope that you can perhaps shed some more light on this issue. Eric Madis and Dakin Burdick have both provide me with some useful information since my original post, so my main questions at this point are: what evidence, if any, is there that the Choson Court banned taekyon in the Late 19th Century; what evidence, if any, that the Japanese Government General banned Korean martial arts; is there any documentation other than Hwang Kee's books that Korean gangsters used taekyon in the 1920s and '30s? I'm working to complete the revisions on my dissertation, which explores the relationship between Korean and Japanese gangsters and between gangsters and the government, and my advisor would like me to firm up my sources on some of my information. I'd greatly appreciate any insight that you may have on this matter. Here is my original post, which explains why I have these questions. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- I know this is a forum for Japanese martial arts, but there seem to be a lot of very knowledgeable folk here and I was hoping to get some answers to my two main questions. I posted this over on budoseek, but have not gotten any feedback yet. Quote: I've seen this discussed tangentially in a lot of threads, but haven't found a specific thread dedicated to this contraversial topic, though. As a student of history specializing in the Korean Colonial Period and a martial artist who specializes in Tae Kwon Do and who has trained in both Japan and Korea, this is an area that interests me, but which I find to be poorly documented and emotionally charged. A friend of mine once showed me a discussion on a BBS (remember those?) that was hosted by Chalmers Johnson back in the early to mid '90s that discussed this topic and had good and relatively o bj ective discussion. A few of the salient features that I remember from that discussion were: 1) The practice of martial arts by civillians in Korea was actually banned by the Choson Court in the 1870s in response to a spate of gang violence in the capital. The Japanese Government General simply continued this ban. 2) It is probable that a very small group of civillian practitioners continued to pass on the teachings of their art "underground" until the 1920s. However, given the Neo-Confucian disdain for the military that was a dominant feature of Korean society until Liberation, it would seem logical that such underground practitioners would be rare and would most likely have existed in the margianilized groups within society. 3) In 1920, the Government General allowed Koreans to study martial arts in the public schools as part of the education reforms following the March First Uprising in 1919. At this time, any "underground" practitioners would have been provided some legitimate cover. At the same time, martial arts instruction in Korea was dominated by Japanese and Okinawan influences. 4) Until 1932, the Chinese character used for Kara in Karate was the one that is usually romanized as T'ang for T'ang Dynasty China. This character is pronounced as kara in Japanese and tang in Korean. The Japanese government changed the character to the Kara meaning "empty" in order to erase the Chinese via Okinawa origins of Karate. The overwhelming sense of those involved in this discussion was that Karate spread from China to Okinawa and Korean with Ch'an/Son/Zen Budhism during the T'ang Dynasty and later spread into Japan during the Tokugawa period. 5) Most of the founders of the seven Kwans studied Karate in Okinawa and a few in Japan. Whether they had studied any underground traditional Korean martial arts is speculative but not improbable. 6) While it may not be accurate to say that all modern Korean martial arts are derived from Japanese martial arts (after all, even "purely" Japanese martial arts have been influenced by Chinese and/or Okinawan martial arts to some degree), it is fair to say they were heavily influenced by the Japanese during the Colonial Period. My main interest in this topic is with points 1) and 2) and a bit with 3). I have found historical accounts that indicate that the Pobusang (pedlers) guilds (note: I say guilds here instead of the more commonly used Guild to differentiate between the Choson Gvt's attempt to organize government controlled guild system and the more regional and local guild type structures that developed during the late Koryo period and continue to a very limited degree even now) often had a para-military/youth brigade type organization to train in self defense for the members and to enforce order. It would seem to me that these groups would have continued to train in martial arts even after the Choson Court's proscription against civillian practice of martial arts, and may have even continued into the Colonial Period. This is conjecture on my part with regards to the Colonial Period, although it does seem logical. Also, I have found that kkangp'ae (Korean gangsters) likely practiced martial arts in the '20s and '30s, based on accounts of the MA skills of some of the more famous leaders of these gangs. Also, following Liberation and prior to the Korean War, martial arts were often referred to as "kkangp'ae training" by residents of Seoul. My biggest problems are: 1) I only have a single BBS reference from an undocumented source with regards to the Choson Court's proscription against civillian practice of martial arts; 2) I have been able to find absolutely no Japanese Government General order related to this proscription - although there was a general order to continue the Choson penal code for Koreans in Korea in addition to the Japanese penal code. This order was rescinded in 1920. 3) I have been able to find no evidence that the Japanese Governement General enforced any proscription against the civillian practice of martial arts in any of the crime statistics maintained by the Government General. 4) I have been unable to find any evidence of any private martial arts schools, either Japanese or Korean owned, in the records of registered businesses contained in the ecomic records maintained by the Government General. My questions are: 1) Does anyone have any evidence to support the assertion that the Choson Court banned the civillian practice of martial arts? 2) Does anyone have any evidence that the Japanese Government General did, and if so, any evidence of enforcement of this ban? 3) Were there any legitimate (i.e. legal) privately run martial arts schools in Korea prior to 1945? 4) Were the martial arts used by kkangp'ae learned in Japanese run public schools prior to the introduction MA into the public school curriculum in 1920, were they learned "underground," or was it a combination of the two? I'm not trying to start a flame war. I really would like to find some evidence regarding the prohibition against civillian practice of the martial arts in either late Choson or early Colonial Korea. I'm working on revisions to my dissertation and the only evidence I have regarding this are notes from a discussion on a BBS about 13 years ago. __________________________________ Again, thanks for any information that you may be able to provide. Sincerely, Joe Cheavens --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "tim walker" To: Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 13:19:54 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Interesting Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <> Menehune. Definitely the Menehune. Seen it a hundred times. Good luck with that. timo "I'm not a Kahuna, but I Play One on TV" --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 10:22:35 -0900 From: Dan Scholten To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] WTF/ITF Rank Certification/ U.S. versus International certification Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Greetings to all; I have been reading the postings related to Rank Certification and comments related to WTF and why give money to a foreign country. Also concerns about changing organizations and rank testing requirements. 1. There are no indigenous White man Martial Arts dating back hundreds if not thousands of years with history and culture. Also you are missing the point; the second word in Martial Art is Art. Investing a large part of your life in a style or system with out studying and experiencing the culture is leaving out a vital part of the reason for doing it in the first place. When people start and train in Martial arts for reasons of fear, hate or ego the reason to train leaves them as soon as they become tired or the requirements to hard. The problem with western culture mixing with the MA in training is that in eastern philosophy we were taught to draw two circles one large and one small. The goal you want to attain is the large circle and the small circle is you. You need to submit yourself to your goals with out question/ training 3-6 days a week tired or not and do what is required hundreds if not thousands of times until you have it right. Here most of the children fail because they have been led to believe that they are the large circle more important that the goal. The Korean people are some of the most loving and caring people on this earth with a very rich culture if food, cultural arts, myth and legends. True being white limits what they may share or teach you up front but as in any apprenticeship no tradesman will teach just because you show up and no amount of money will change that. Only the bond of love from Parent to Child or Father to Son will make them open up to you and you must show respect and most of all long term loyalty. The challenge for you is to find that person and organization that you can give that to for life period!! 2. WTF versus U.S. or one man's organization certification. The WTF Tae Kwon Do is the only government sanctioned TKD recognized by the Korean Government. It is not based on one man but a committee that will go on no matter what. When the President of Kukkiwon dies he will be replaced and I would challenge you to go to the website and look at the current Presidents Credentials. It took many years for the Korean masters to agree on the 8 Kwon's of TKD that formed modern TKD so that it could be funded as an Olympic sport. My master of over 30 years was the student of the founder of our Kwan, Jido Kwon. The symbol of Jido Kwon is a little figure 8 or like the Bozo the Clown dummy we used to punch in the nose when we were little and it would always get back up. That is the philosophy of Jido Kwon, Survival, it is not to win or take first place but effort is its own reward, doing your best regardless and if you survive no matter what you have won. This is how we need to live our lives and that is at the heart of all MA training, life skills not death. The comment made by someone that a 2nd Dan black belt quite because he was told he had to learn 8 Palgue's. First this is a prime example of teaching in the U.S. today. The first law of MA is the master says and you do. A real traditional master trained by indigenous peoples or system knows exactly what each student needs in their development. This means I will give one thing to learn and when you have done that I will give you one more. There was a good article in Black Belt Magazine a while back about students need to shut up and stop asking questions and learn to listen. The point being the Master knows what and how you need to train, your obligation to earn the right to learn more is to do your best. The meaning of black belt and rank advancement has been lost; it should be tied to spiritual and emotional development not just kicks and punches. No matter what style if you choose to change you must submit to what ever the requirements. If you have invested conditioning your body then that is never lost but if you have to wait months or years to progress in rank so what. Patience is at the heart of MA high rank really means that you are getting older and close to dying, what's the hurry. I intend to teach and train in my 90's because god willing the training is keeping me that healthy. So rank does not matter if you live long enough we will all be the same rank what maters is health and family. I have spent most of my life with master's that have killed up close and personal for king and country, in fact they were the only two Koreans captured by the North Vietnamese to escape alive. They are some of the most accomplished MA in the world to date. At last test 40 men flew in from all over the United States and 3,500 people paid to watch and the demo team was considered to be one of the best in the world. Regardless of opinions pro and con between them related to TKD and Hapkido and other matters they are still completely loyal to WTF and that is good enough for me. When my master dies regardless of my master ranking I will submit myself to the GM of his choice. I do hope that if the ITF is absorbed by the WTF that our forms are not changed I would rather that additional forms were added but no matter people of much higher rank and seniority are going to make those decisions and we must all conform. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest