Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2006 14:44:38 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 13 #109 - 13 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,100 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Hwa Rang Code compared to Bushido (Erik Brann) 2. TKD in the RVN (JR West) 3. Black Belt Retention (Bruce Sims) 4. RE: Foreign visitors (Howard Spivey) 5. RE: TKD in the RVN (michael tomlinson) 6. RE: Hwa Rang Code compared to Bushido (Joseph Cheavens) 7. RE: Circular motion (Stovall, Craig) 8. Re: Hwa Rang Code compared to Bushido (Nathan Miller) 9. RE: TKD in the RVN (Thomas Gordon) 10. RE: Hwa Rang Code compared to Bushido (Samurai Latino) 11. GM West's time in the RVN (Gordon) 12. RE: TKD in the RVN (David P. Zapencki) 13. thought question (instructor@realtaekwondo.com) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Erik Brann" To: Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2006 14:10:33 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Hwa Rang Code compared to Bushido Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Greetings, I've read extensively that in the Silla Kingdom of Korea existed a group of warriors called the Hwarang. Did these warriors have a code of ethics/conduct much like the Samurai of Japan having Bushido. I recognize that the Bushido with seven cardinal virtues is a modern (post-Meiji) invention. However, having researched texts such as House Codes of the Daimyo, and Daidoji Yuzan's Budoshoshinsu, that Bushido prior to Meiji was a much more nebulous concept. Thus my core questions are: 1. Did the Hwa Rang have a code like Bushido? 2. If so what was it? 3. If not, how would these concepts translate as a core set of concepts to teach students? Thanks for any replies. Erik Brann --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "JR West" To: Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2006 13:21:14 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] TKD in the RVN Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "GM West would probably know more about this type of thing then all of us put together on here. GM West was in Vietnam and trained with the Koreans." Thanx for remembering me Mike.........I was trained under the ROK M-21 program in the Central Highlands of the RVN, under the auspices of the ROK Capitol Cavalry or "Tiger" Div. . The TKD that was taught there was extremely different in many ways....We NEVER kicked above the hip flexors, and round kicks were almost always aimed at the knees. There were absolutely NO spinning kicks or turning kicks and everyone practiced the Pyung Ahn forms. All TKD taught was considered ODK regardless of the instructor's style or affiliation. My two instructors were Hapkido guys, so after their mandatory daily class teaching was over, we would retreat to a small hill called Nui MaHa (I think it meant "new mountain") that popped up out of a rice paddy many many years ago, and due to it's volcanic powdery top, made a great area to train with falls etc. Everyone trained in TKD (including me) but there were only 4 HKD guys (also including me) involved in the nightly HKD training. There were only 4 belts back then, white, blue, red and black, and I was told that they came directly from the colors of the Korean flag...."lots of white, some blue, some red and very little black". The head of the TKD program for Vietnam era was Col. Nam, Tae-hi, and the ROK SF guys trained right along with the rest of the Tiger Div. as there really wasn't much difference back then. I NEVER saw any other Americans during my training with the ROKS, although there are many biographies floating around to suggest I might be mistaken (?). On a side note, I met GM Bong Soo Han in 1966 in Nha Trang where he served as a counter-intelligence mercenary for the 5th SF Group, and he was looked upon as if he were a god by the other Koreans and most of the Americans. I was terrified of him by his reputation, but found him to be, as he is today, the ultimate gentleman. If anyone has any further questions about this, feel free to contact me directly so as not to bore anyone..... J. R. West www.hapkido.com --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2006 11:22:07 -0800 (PST) From: Bruce Sims To: Ray Terry Subject: [The_Dojang] Black Belt Retention Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "....I am so fed up with people saying they are bored with kicks or blocks or this and that. The whole point is to free your self from the thought process of how many times you are doing a thing or that it is hard, to understand you never master or conquer a form or technique but they evolve as you mature and evolve. The blocks and movements to a form is sacred and should mean something to a person and this will carry them as they get older and can no longer do as the young boys once did. Forms will feed you, heal you and love you if you will put away your self indulgence and learn what they are really meant for. My master of 36 years just scolded me three years ago when he visited me in Barrow about never stop doing basic technique, blocks, punches ect. Because it is the foundation of what makes you strong and balance. He was singing to the choir on that one but I was not going to say anything...." Gawd, am I EVER right there with you!! I have simply had my fill of people whining about how "long", or how "difficult" or how "boring" etc etc classes are--- like I am suppose to fight their battle against their own short-comings FOR them! Its like hearing those guys complaining about the likelihood of getting wounded or killed going to war. Well what the hell did they THINK enlistment was about!! I don't teach knitting, or tennis or jogging or any of the million other things people do to distract themselves from facing down their own "monkey mind". What I teach is arduous, tedious, laborious and demanding--- and probably not a little frightening at times. Tough shit. If people want to leave just don't let the door hitcha on the butt. But if you're staying fer gawd sake quitcherbitchin. Best Wishes, Bruce __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Howard Spivey" To: Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2006 15:17:09 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Foreign visitors Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Unfortunately, this is true. About two months back one of our Hapkido friends, who is a Puerto Rican guy who lives in Northern VA, invited several students over from the Dominican Republic for some training. They used his name to expedite getting their visas. Well, one of them apparently forgot to get on the return flight (and is probably somewhere in Washington Heights, NYC right this minute). So, our friend is in exactly the pickle that Mr West describes below. At least in this scam they don't ask you for your bank info so they can deposit $25MM into your account, LOL. "Anytime someone from overseas contacts you and asks for information to come to your seminar, tournament, family reunion or goat-roping, what they are looking for is an invitation in their name to enter our country ahead of the visa process. They show your "invitation" to a sporting event, and as soon as they enter the good ole' US of A, they do a disappearing act that would make Houdini proud. Then comes the good part........guess who the State Dept. contacts to try and find this rodent....YOU!!.....Let me give you a brief outline of how the conversation will go....."you sent this guy an invitation to enter our country and you didn't know him?" (he asked incredulously)....Caveat emptor!!!...J. R. West www.hapkido.com" --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] TKD in the RVN Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2006 19:39:05 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net dang that is some awesome information and far from what I would call boring..thank you GM West for sharing this history with us,, shoot I would love to read more...this puts everything in perspective for all of us.. Michael Tomlinson >From: "JR West" >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >To: >Subject: [The_Dojang] TKD in the RVN >Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2006 13:21:14 -0600 > >"GM West would probably know more about this type of thing then all of us >put >together on here. GM West was in Vietnam and trained with the Koreans." > >Thanx for remembering me Mike.........I was trained under the ROK M-21 >program in the Central Highlands of the RVN, under the auspices of the ROK >Capitol Cavalry or "Tiger" Div. . The TKD that was taught there was >extremely different in many ways....We NEVER kicked above the hip flexors, >and round kicks were almost always aimed at the knees. There were >absolutely NO spinning kicks or turning kicks and everyone practiced the >Pyung Ahn forms. All TKD taught was considered ODK regardless of the >instructor's style or affiliation. My two instructors were Hapkido guys, >so after their mandatory daily class teaching was over, we would retreat to >a small hill called Nui MaHa (I think it meant "new mountain") that popped >up out of a rice paddy many many years ago, and due to it's volcanic >powdery top, made a great area to train with falls etc. Everyone trained >in TKD (including me) but there were only 4 HKD guys (also including me) >involved in the nightly HKD training. There were only 4 belts back then, >white, blue, red and black, and I was told that they came directly from the >colors of the Korean flag...."lots of white, some blue, some red and very >little black". The head of the TKD program for Vietnam era was Col. Nam, >Tae-hi, and the ROK SF guys trained right along with the rest of the Tiger >Div. as there really wasn't much difference back then. I NEVER saw any >other Americans during my training with the ROKS, although there are many >biographies floating around to suggest I might be mistaken (?). On a side >note, I met GM Bong Soo Han in 1966 in Nha Trang where he served as a >counter-intelligence mercenary for the 5th SF Group, and he was looked upon >as if he were a god by the other Koreans and most of the Americans. I was >terrified of him by his reputation, but found him to be, as he is today, >the ultimate gentleman. If anyone has any further questions about this, >feel free to contact me directly so as not to bore anyone..... J. R. West >www.hapkido.com >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Joseph Cheavens" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Hwa Rang Code compared to Bushido Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2006 14:42:55 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net The Hwarrang had a code of five principles: Loyalty (to country), Filial Piety (respect for one's elders), Friendship (amongst equals), Compassion (for those below you), and Righteousness (in action). The Ji Do Kwan dojang where I first studied had these in engraved in Chinese characters on a large wooden signboard at the head of the class that we learned as our code of conduct. I made a similar signboard for the dojang where I trained in Hawai'i. If you like, I can send you an attachment with a version I just did in Paint. I can't draw very well with a mouse, so its pretty sloppy. Joe Cheavens -------------------------------------------------------------------- From:  "Erik Brann" Reply-To:  the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To:   Subject:  [The_Dojang] Hwa Rang Code compared to Bushido Date:  Fri, 3 Mar 2006 14:10:33 -0500 >Greetings, > >I've read extensively that in the Silla Kingdom of Korea existed a group of >warriors called the Hwarang. Did these warriors have a code of >ethics/conduct much like the Samurai of Japan having Bushido. > >I recognize that the Bushido with seven cardinal virtues is a modern >(post-Meiji) invention. However, having researched texts such as House Codes >of the Daimyo, and Daidoji Yuzan's Budoshoshinsu, that Bushido prior to >Meiji was a much more nebulous concept. > >Thus my core questions are: > >1. Did the Hwa Rang have a code like Bushido? > >2. If so what was it? > >3. If not, how would these concepts translate as a core set of concepts to >teach students? > >Thanks for any replies. > >Erik Brann >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2006 13:39:43 -0600 From: "Stovall, Craig" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Circular motion Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <<>> IMHO, I don't think he does. I think this idea comes from the fact that he has long trained with a guy named Nono who's out of Hermosa Beach, CA. Evidently, he's a Hapkido guy, and has coached Royce with his stand up fighting (kickboxing). He's also cornered Royce in more than a few of his fights. I know that Royce has said in an interview that Nono also works with him on "stickfighting". If you get that 'Superfit' book I think there's some pictures of Nono in there. Now, having said all of that I think Royce has probably picked up some small joint manipulation stuff from the guy. Reason I say that is because Royce finished Akebono off with a real slick omoplata/wrist lock combination. Of course, there are wrist locks in BJJ but I can't help but think he picked up some influence from Nono in that regard. That's my long way of saying that he trains with a Hapkido guy on certain aspects of martial arts, but I don't think he pursues Hapkido study in any real sense. I could be wrong. Now, the purists will poo-poo on me for saying this, but I honestly think the two arts can complement each other quite well. --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2006 14:59:09 -0600 From: "Nathan Miller" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Hwa Rang Code compared to Bushido Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net The one I usually see attributed to them is the one available on wikipedia.org: 1. Loyalty to one's country - Il Sä Kun E Chung 2. Loyalty to one's parents and teachers - E Sä Chin E Hyo 3. Trust and brotherhood among friends - Säm Kyo Uoo E Shin 4. Courage to never retreat in the face of the enemy - Sä Im Jun Moo Teah 5. Justice never to take a life without cause - O Säl Säng U Teck From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hwarang Nathan On 3/3/06, Erik Brann wrote: > > Greetings, > > I've read extensively that in the Silla Kingdom of Korea existed a group > of > warriors called the Hwarang. Did these warriors have a code of > ethics/conduct much like the Samurai of Japan having Bushido. > > I recognize that the Bushido with seven cardinal virtues is a modern > (post-Meiji) invention. However, having researched texts such as House > Codes > of the Daimyo, and Daidoji Yuzan's Budoshoshinsu, that Bushido prior to > Meiji was a much more nebulous concept. > > Thus my core questions are: > > 1. Did the Hwa Rang have a code like Bushido? > > 2. If so what was it? > > 3. If not, how would these concepts translate as a core set of concepts to > teach students? > > Thanks for any replies. > > Erik Brann > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2006 15:00:21 -0600 (CST) Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] TKD in the RVN From: "Thomas Gordon" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Some interesting history Grandmaster West. I'd like to hear/read more. Always good to get it from someone who is legit. Thomas Gordon Florida --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2006 13:08:14 -0800 (PST) From: Samurai Latino Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Hwa Rang Code compared to Bushido To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net If you don't mind, I would like to receive a copy of that file. I study Tang Soo Do and we use these codes along with the 7 tenets. Sincerely, Rafael Amill Choson Martial Arts Sierra Vista, AZ 85635 www.geocities.com/samurai_latino/Choson_Main_Page.html Joseph Cheavens wrote: The Hwarrang had a code of five principles: Loyalty (to country), Filial Piety (respect for one's elders), Friendship (amongst equals), Compassion (for those below you), and Righteousness (in action). The Ji Do Kwan dojang where I first studied had these in engraved in Chinese characters on a large wooden signboard at the head of the class that we learned as our code of conduct. I made a similar signboard for the dojang where I trained in Hawai'i. If you like, I can send you an attachment with a version I just did in Paint. I can't draw very well with a mouse, so its pretty sloppy. Joe Cheavens __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "Gordon" To: Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2006 15:11:25 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] GM West's time in the RVN Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Michael Tomlinson wrote: I second that! Info and lore of the ancient times is fascinating! No disrespect intended Grand Master West. -just a little fun. Gordon Okerstrom --__--__-- Message: 12 From: "David P. Zapencki" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] TKD in the RVN Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2006 15:15:58 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Very cool... more please... -----Original Message----- From: Thomas Gordon [mailto:tgordon@gordonmartialarts.com] Sent: Friday, March 03, 2006 3:00 PM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] TKD in the RVN Some interesting history Grandmaster West. I'd like to hear/read more. Always good to get it from someone who is legit. Thomas Gordon Florida _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 13 Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2006 13:21:14 -0800 From: instructor@realtaekwondo.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] thought question Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net very interesting post. I've read many stories about the korean army using tkd training and being quite effective. I'd like to difference between their training and tkD training now. The main difference with training of the past and now was the big kids boom of the early eighties. Instructors started to make curriculum and classes easier to adapt to all the kids training now. Those kids/teenagers grew up becoming instructors teaching the same way they were taught. So, they just learn blocks, forms and kicks for testing without having any knowledge on how, why and when these techniques should be used. They don't know the correct methods for punching, kicking and footwork for fighting. They don't know of the principles in each form (palgwes). With the growth of the sport, they just do the same things and add sport sparring. Then these same schools end up addind things like Krav Maga to bring back self defense to their schools. If they seek out training in real taekwondo the way the seek out training in business (which is needed nowadays) they would see they have a complete art(TKD does not have ground work but they do have defense against the ground). At my school, I pass on the same knowledge of traditional fighting TKD. I call it Combat Taekwondo because I don't want to be associated with the average TKD school of today. I offer Olympic style TKD mainly for the young people (its too unsafe to add punching to head). I think its a great sport but its just that a sport not an ART. That's why I commented on the applications of the old Kukkiwon textbook. There is a lot of applications missing (they probably don't know) and what they show a child can figure out. Just my opinion, but if you think about it, its true. master eddie urbistondo --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest