Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2006 20:47:23 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 13 #121 - 12 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,100 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Multi arts at one time (WTSDA Bruce) 2. Notification of Pan American team selection process (Ray Terry) 3. Dan Sholten (sidtkd@aol.com) 4. self-defense end table (Don Kirsch) 5. Self-defense (Bruce Sims) 6. Re: Self-Defense (jakskru) 7. Multi Art Training (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 8. RE: self-defense end table (Kay Ethier-Above and Beyond Language Learning) 9. RE: Sandy and women's self defense (George Peters) 10. RE: self-defense end table (michael tomlinson) 11. RE: Multi Art Training (Rick Clark) 12. RE: Self-defense (Rick Clark) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "WTSDA Bruce" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Multi arts at one time Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2006 07:56:35 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I really love your cliche. I agree that training in similar styles, seriously, hapkido-aikido may get confusing. Going to seminars to pick up a few new techniques is different. I train in two styles, hapkido and tang soo do, there are even slight issues here. The way a reverse punch is done (one you pivot the foot, the other you do not), the way an arm bar is done (one is a circular motion skill, one is more a power skill) are two examples. You just have to pick which one would be the best for the threat presented. Threat presented....the reference to muscle memory in the first posting is somewhat correct. The term muscle memory is a cliche, but it refers to the way the brain responds, not the muscles. For example, you train that the first response to a punch is thrown at your mid section is a outside to inside block, then counter punch to the ribs. Another simple analogy would be after you have been burned by a red hot pan, normally you do not grab a red hot pan again. Learned experience to a specific threat. The brain recognizes a threat and responds to it the way it has been trained to. The problem arises when you have multiple responses to the same threat, the BRAIN has to choose which one to use. Unless you train A LOT, responding to that threat will be delayed. Bruce ----- Original Message ----- From: "jakskru" To: Sent: Friday, March 10, 2006 5:03 PM Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Multi arts at one time >> Personally I don't have a problem with someone training in various arts >> from white belt forward. It's a matter of time and commitment in my >> opinion . . . . >> >> > > it is also a matter of the individual... > > yes, some people can learn two different arts at once, but are they > mastering either? > > some people are not interested in mastering an art, and not everyone > trains > for the same reasons or with the same commitment...like everything in > life, > you get out what you put in. > > do you really need to "master" an art to be competent in it? i dont know, > but i think not. > > i believe that if you want to try to really learn or "master" a martial > art, you should commit to just one...and cross train when you can...you > can > never have too many bullets in your gun, but make sure your gun can fire > them first. ( i love cliche---especially ones i make up! ) > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2006 06:41:29 -0800 From: "Ray Terry" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Notification of Pan American team selection process Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: USAT Administration Subject: Notification of Pan American Team Selection Process Notification of Pan American team selection process: The planned selection process for the 2007 Pan American Games, which will be held in Rio de Janerio, Brazil on July 14-29, 2007 shall be through the National Event Qualifiers that start on April 1 and run through May 28, progressing to the Senior National Championships that will take place in November 3-5 and concluding with the Pan Am Games Team Trial on December 8-10, 2006. Selection procedures were submitted to the U. S. Olympic Committee on February 13, 2006. However, on February 15, 2006 the Pan American Taekwondo Union stated that the 2007 Pan American Games Qualification Tournament, which originally was to be part of the proposed selection process, had been rescheduled from January 12-13, 2007 to September 28 – October 1, 2006 in Cali, Colombia. This has required USA Taekwondo to work with the U.S. Olympic Committee to revise the submitted selection procedures and to re-strategize the process that will yield optimal performance. As the revised procedures have not undergone approval, they are not ready for publication. However, as part of what USA Taekwondo has proposed as selection for the Pan American Games team, athletes MAY have the opportunity to qualify for the Pan American Games team through performances as detailed above. Once selection procedures are approved they will be published on USA Taekwondo's website and through USA Taekwondo's publication, no more than 5 days after the date of approval by the U.S. Olympic Committee. --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2006 09:52:58 -0500 From: sidtkd@aol.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Dan Sholten Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net First Dan...what do you really think?????!!!! Seriously...this was the destiny of taekwondo. Large orgqanizations stamp out individualization, excitement and discovery. When the kwans merged they were beginning a death dance. I for one believe in large organizations but like Kyokushin Karate. Although Mas Oyama's movement will never be as large as TKD is one hell of an exciting sport. Taekwondo...ot Take My Dough as it is called in some parts...is so boring that many people elect to watch paint dry rather than watching a tournament. Personnally...I've stopped going to tournaments with my students. The price of No Doze is too high. Sincerely, Sid Rubinfeld --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Don Kirsch" To: "the_dojang" Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2006 09:16:13 -0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] self-defense end table Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net That's a great table...however I think for the USA model I'd retool it and replace the bat/club with a 12 gauge pump shotgun...damn I just gave away my idea before I had time to get it patented. Regards, Don Kirsch --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2006 10:55:56 -0800 (PST) From: Bruce Sims To: Ray Terry Subject: [The_Dojang] Self-defense Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "....Just out of curiosity, when do you feel a person in the martial arts passes beyond performing the techniques (mechanical skill) and passes on to practicing an art? Thinking in terms of music there are not many like Yo Yo Ma, or a Pavarotti, Carreras, Zubin Mehta, or even Paul McCarthy. I suspect most of us are technicians rather than artists. Dear Rick: The people you have identified are much more than just artists. I would say they are experts in their chosen fields. For myself I don't think a person has to be an expert to have transitioned from being a technician to an artist. When I first started training in Hapkido I heard many veiled allusions to a kind of "epiphany" that I could expect to take place around Brown Belt level. As a White and Yellow and Blue belt this made little sense to me and I pretty much blew it off. I can, however, recall a day while I was a Brown Belt and was working free-form ("off the punch"). The techniques simply came through me and were expressed and I chuckled to myself to realize that I was "really doing it"! At that point all the pieces sorta fell into place and it all just made sense. If I had to point to a single moment at which I stopped being a technician and started being an "artist" that would be the moment. Does that help? Best Wishes, Bruce __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "jakskru" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Self-Defense Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2006 14:06:14 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Perhaps, but I think there might be more to it than this. I don't know > if we can define it so easily. > > Rick Clark i agree...i dont think there is a way to define the moment, it just happens, which was my point, although i didnt come across clearly---because it is hard to define --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: "the_dojang" Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2006 13:20:42 -0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] Multi Art Training Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Clark To answer your question about training in 5 arts at the same time. In my personal opinion it is possible but unlikley that the skill level of such a martial artist would be very good in any one of the 5 arts. Some things are universal in martial art training such as balance, focus, breath corrdination, etc. These things are all part of the foundation, and understanding that every legitamate martial artist should strive for no matter what art they train in. It is this foundation and understanding that is learned through continued dedication and guidance in one art. As you no, Cho Dan means begining level, and at that level --IMHO students are not ready to begin learning another art, becasue they are still at the begining level of another. I do however believe it is OK to experament with SOME techniques barrowed from other styles as long as the body machanics and physics is in line with and compatable with your understanding n the art you study. Once a student has demonstated a good understanding on these basic things, it may be to there advantage to cross train in techniques. Arts are not just physical but have there own history and philosophies. If a martial artist is to make there training a life style-- which philosophy will they adopt, the aggressive style philosophy or the passive style philosophy. And if they choose one over the other can they say they are truely a martial artist of the art philosophy they did not choose. As for money and policics. I agree with you. I could fill the Do-Jang or should I say DoJo when I teach Jujitsu. I could fill the Do-Jang with students if I just taught Grappling, and free style wrestling, but I have a responsibility as an instructor to create the best learning invoronment I can. This is why I turn away those that just what to learn some grappling and leave to go learn a little from the next guy. My Soo Bahk Do students are dedicated and earn the right to be taught the additional cross training I offer. I teach complete well rounded Martial Artist, not wanta be fighters. As for the discipline/respect we as instructors are to teach--- I agree we are to teach these things, and I do, howver you create a better learning invornment when they can focus on just one thing in a traditional setting, then when you teach in a free style setting. The bottom line is that cross training has been happening for centuries, as a result many new arts have evolved. My concern is that with this eveloution to much effort is being put on techniques and less on discipline, respect, history, student instructor relationships etc. Everyone to day is to concerned with the fast food approach of learning submissions, and cross training. and like I said before they are becoming a Jack of all trades and a Master of none. JCGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Kay Ethier-Above and Beyond Language Learning" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] self-defense end table Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2006 18:24:32 -0500 Organization: Above and Beyond Language Learning Inc. Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net The table is really cool, but I think I'd rather have a safe room with tunnel for my kids and I to get out of the way! :-) Then I can use the bat phone at the end of the tunnel so the cops can come and shoot 'em up after we're out of the way. .K. -----Original Message----- From: Don Kirsch [mailto:donkirsch@msn.com] That's a great table...however I think for the USA model I'd retool it and replace the bat/club with a 12 gauge pump shotgun...damn I just gave away my idea before I had time to get it patented. Regards, Don Kirsch --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "George Peters" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2006 20:38:23 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Sandy and women's self defense Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Good Sandy, An instructor from another art and I volunteer almost every year to run a class like this at the local "Y". No martial basics, uniforms for students(just sweats),and no hard physical work that would discourage participation. There IS a "can do" attitude, stretching and a lot of work on body mechanics so techniques will work for the user. Techniques in the "core" of the program are mostly from very basic Ho Sin Sul. We also ask in the beginning of the program(and also each class) if there is anything specific that any participant feels a need to know and try to address these things. It is stressed that these techniques are to get you AWAY from an assailant and give one time to get to safety, not so one can stand their ground and fight. Also we try to teach some "situational awareness" of where one is and what is (or who is) around us, and to avoid these places and people. Hope this has been of use. Things and particpants change on a yearly basis so I cannot get too specific, just trying to give you a good general overview of what we do. Respectfully, George --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] self-defense end table Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2006 02:31:29 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Definately and the top of the table (shield) could be steel or ceramic plating wrapped in Kevlar.....man that would be too cool.... Michael Tomlinson >From: "Don Kirsch" >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >To: "the_dojang" >Subject: [The_Dojang] self-defense end table >Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2006 09:16:13 -0800 > >That's a great table...however I think for the USA model I'd retool it and >replace the bat/club with a 12 gauge pump shotgun...damn I just gave away >my >idea before I had time to get it patented. >Regards, Don Kirsch >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2006 21:53:31 -0500 From: "Rick Clark" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Multi Art Training To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi, >Mr. Clark > >To answer your question about training in 5 arts at the same time. In my personal opinion it is possible but unlikley that >the skill level of such a martial artist would be very good in any one of the 5 arts. Some things are universal in martial >art training such as balance, focus, breath corrdination, etc. You are quite right it is your opinion and as such is valued by yourself and those you know and know you. Equally, I have a different opinion and believe it is possible to study more than one art and individuals can do so at a high level. Personally I have around 44 years experience in the martial arts and have cross trained from the start of my training. If I think back 44 years the amount of cross training I had available to me was limited but I took advantage of every opportunity to learn what I could from anyone I could. Back then martial arts schools were far and few between so we valued anything we were able to learn from our own system or outside that system. That desire to learn as much as I could has remained with me, and I would never say to a student of mine that they should stay with me exclusively. In fact I encourage my students to learn outside what I teach, and if they find something good to let me know about it, and teach me what they have learned. Tae Kwon Do has throwing techniques taught in the system BUT they are not as evolved as those taught in other arts such as Judo, Jujitsu, Aikido, or Hapkido. Tae Kwon Do has disarm techniques against a knife or club but they are not as developed as from Arnis. These arts outside Tae Kwon Do offer higher level techniques than those taught by the normal TKD instructor. Equally, kicking techniques are more advanced in TKD than many other arts. Now if I want to have a higher level of skill in TKD it only makes sense to seek out the arts that compliment and improve the syllabus of TKD. Thus by seeking out those techniques that can offer you a higher skill level you are able to improve the TKD that you are able to teach to your students. If an individual studies Arnis for an extended period of time they will be able to add kicking techniques to the art that are superior to that which is the norm. >These things are all part of the foundation, and understanding that every legitamate martial artist should strive for no >matter what art they train in. It is this foundation and understanding that is learned through continued dedication and >guidance in one art. As you no, Cho Dan means begining level, and at that level --IMHO students are not ready to begin >learning another art, becasue they are still at the begining >level of another. >From personal experience and that of my students over the years I have not seen a problem with this. > I do however believe it is OK to experament with SOME techniques barrowed from other styles as long as the >body machanics and physics is in line with and compatable with your understanding n the art you study. Once a student has >demonstated a good understanding on these basic things, it may be to there advantage to cross train in techniques. I guess this then is opening Pandora's box - if its OK to cross train a little bit then when does it come to be too much or too little? > >Arts are not just physical but have there own history and philosophies. If a martial artist is to make there training a >life style-- which philosophy will they adopt, the aggressive style philosophy or the passive style philosophy. And if they >choose one over the other can they say they are truely a martial artist of the art philosophy they did not choose. History and philosophy do not play a part of self defense, at least in my opinion. Tactics and strategy can be different and employed differently in various arts, but then you also find that in a particular art you will find individuals who use different tactics and strategy than their instructor. Self defense is, to me, just that self not my instructors defense. Heck my tactics and strategy have changed over the four decades I have been involved in the martial arts. > >As for money and policics. I agree with you. :-) >I could fill the Do-Jang or should I say DoJo when I teach Jujitsu. I could >fill the Do-Jang with students if I just taught Grappling, and free style wrestling, but I have a responsibility as an >instructor to create the best learning invoronment I can. We all do that in the way we best feel we meet the needs of our students. >This is why I turn away those that just what to learn some grappling and leave to go learn a little from the next guy. My Soo Bahk Do students are >dedicated and earn the right to be taught the additional cross training I offer. I teach complete well rounded Martial Artist, not wanta be fighters. >As for the discipline/respect we as instructors are to teach--- I agree we are to teach these things, and I do, howver you create a >better learning invornment when they can focus on just one thing in a traditional setting, then when you teach in a free >style setting. I did not say you should teach in a free style setting, nor to me is cross training free style. If you practice multiple arts you still are practicing an individual art with all of its history and traditions. > >The bottom line is that cross training has been happening for centuries, as a result many new arts have evolved. Indeed it has, in my opinion this desire to avoid allowing students to cross train is a relatively new phenonomonen. >My concern is that with this eveloution to much effort is being put on techniques and less on discipline, respect, history, student >instructor relationships etc. I really don't see this as an issue if people are going to instructors who are willing to teach share students is a problem. Take for example Funakoshi, he had several instructors and respected them all. Evidence of this is the many times he wrote of them in his books. Or for that matter Kano who studied several forms of Jujitsu and eventually at the ripe old age of 21 form the new system of Judo. Or Usheiba who studied Daito ryu, sword arts, and spear arts and was able to integrate the arts to his Aikido. Kanazawa in the UK is a very high level Shotokan instructor who also teaches Tai Chi and Chi Gong with his Shotokan. Two VERY different arts and two very different approaches yet he seems to find no problem with this. I should guess that most of us who have been in the martial arts as long as I have, and those who have been in the arts longer will have studied various arts and have do so to a relatively high level of skill. Do I think someone with 2 or 3 years practicing the martial arts and more than one during that time will be masters of these arts? Of course not, but give them 20 or 30 or 40 years and see what their level will be. >Everyone to day is to concerned with the fast food approach of learning submissions, and cross >training. and like I said before they are becoming a Jack of all trades and a Master of none. Perhaps, perhaps not. Like I said give them 40 years and then see how they are doing. Rick Clark www.ao-denkou-kai.org --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2006 23:34:04 -0500 From: "Rick Clark" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Self-defense To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Bruce, >From: Bruce Sims [mailto:bwsims2004@yahoo.com] >"....Just out of curiosity, when do you feel a person in the martial arts passes beyond performing the techniques (mechanical >skill) and passes on to practicing an art? Thinking in terms of music there are not many like Yo Yo Ma, or a Pavarotti, Carreras, Zubin Mehta, >or even Paul McCarthy. I suspect most of us are technicians rather than artists. > >Dear Rick: > >The people you have identified are much more than just artists. I would say they are experts in their chosen >fields. For myself I don't think a person has to be an expert to have transitioned from being a technician to >an artist. Of course they are more than . . . . I was using them to make a point. Sure there are many out there that are artists in the field of music, but I wanted to make the point that there is something "more" than being the kid who is running the scales on an instrument. > >When I first started training in Hapkido I heard many veiled allusions to a kind of "epiphany" that I could >expect to take place around Brown Belt level. As a White and Yellow and Blue belt this made little sense >to me and I pretty much blew it off. I can, however, recall a day while I was a Brown Belt and was working >free-form ("off the punch"). The techniques simply came through me and were expressed and I chuckled to >myself to realize that I was "really doing it"! At that point all the pieces sorta fell into place and it >all just made sense. If I had to point to a single moment at which I stopped being a technician and >started being an "artist" that would be the moment. >Does that help? Personally I think you get to the level of arts when you begin to see connections between things other things and relate them back to your art. I don't know quite the way to express it but an example, for me at least, is when you are able to put things together from outside your art and make it part of your art. Sort of like when you put words together to make to make a story. If you have a youngster they will have a limited world view and this will reflect on the story they can turn out. However if you have a well educated, well traveled, adult they should be able to write a story that is more complex with greater substance. If you simply are a technician, even a very talented technician in a particular system you are only a mimic of that which is taught to you. To me being an artist you have to get past the technical point and you are creative with your system - then you become an artist. > >Best Wishes, > >Bruce Rick Clark www.ao-denkou-kai.org --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest