Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2006 19:08:50 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 13 #122 - 16 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,100 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. PACAF Airman Assualted with Knife (masterm1) 2. Sid (Frank Clay) 3. practice surfaces (freddie bishop) 4. PanAmerican Championship (Olivos@aol.com) 5. TKD & Olympic excitement (Don Ross) 6. Master Dan to Sid Rubinfeld (Dan Scholten) 7. Re: Cross training (Beungood8@aol.com) 8. My last word or Multi art Training (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 9. Re: practice surfaces (Ray) 10. Self-Defense (Bruce W. Sims) 11. RE: PACAF Airman Assualted with Knife (Joseph Cheavens) 12. RE: practice surfaces (Joseph Cheavens) 13. RE: TKD & Olympic excitement (Joseph Cheavens) 14. RE: Re: Cross training (Joseph Cheavens) 15. Re: practice surfaces (michael tomlinson) 16. RE: Re: Cross training (Rick Clark) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "masterm1" To: Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2006 22:46:55 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] PACAF Airman Assualted with Knife Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hey could a good self defense course have saved this guy. I spent 26 years in the AF and went all over the world and never learned or heard of a self defence course offered through the AF. Master M Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2006 4:55 PM Subject: PACAF Airman Assaulted with Knife He should be transported back to the US ASAP.. That look like the work of a Korean..and yes, they normally carry straight edge razor knives in their pockets.. Normally if you act like you got some manners they will not mess with you but if you get too drunk and act an ass, well, this can happen......and nobody every knows what happens to you.. you can tell they did not try to kill him...so I guess this was just a reminder... Subject: FW: PACAF Airman Assaulted with Knife Good morning, If you have a weak stomach you may not want to look. Thank You, ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- From: Lopez Jose J TSgt 78 LRS/LGRTP Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2006 9:44 AM Subject: FW: PACAF Airman Assaulted with Knife Caution, pictures are graphic! Kunsan Staff Sergeant Michael Jones, was assaulted in an A-Town bar by unknown assailants. 8th SFS and members of the OSI Detachment 641 B, are investigating. If anyone wishes to donate to the family of SSgt Jones you can call the 8th MXS First Sergeant at 782-4041 or (281) 330-8004. José J. López, TSgt, USAF NCOIC, Passenger Travel 78LRS/LGRT DSN: 472-0104 Comm: 478-222-0104 Fax DSN: 468-9384 Fax Comm: 478-926-9384 --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Frank Clay" To: Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2006 01:31:20 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Sid Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I have to agree. I think that if we want this sport to thrive we have to do something to make it not so specialized. there is a good deal of excitement but lets make it more representative of the martial art we practice. Just my opinion, Frank --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2006 06:10:07 -0800 (PST) From: freddie bishop To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] practice surfaces Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Does anyone practice joint manipulation techniques that end with their partner flat on their back or side while standing on a floor covered with puzzle mats? Fred __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Olivos@aol.com Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2006 12:22:39 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] PanAmerican Championship Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I read that they will hold the PanAmerican Championship in Buenos Aires, Argentina, but do you know in what part of Buenos Aires? That is a big province. I'd love to watch the championship if my dates while working down there fit the events date. Can anyone help? Thanks Betty 2nd dan --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Don Ross" To: "dojang_digest" Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2006 12:29:33 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] TKD & Olympic excitement Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net One of the things about tournament sparring I never understood was why, are kicks to the head allowed but punches aren't. IMVHO, while for some of us, hand techniques may be faster than kicks, in general, they are less powerful, but most/all? of us have greater motor control of our hands as opposed to our legs. For me, I believe I'd rather try to avoid a punch to the head [which if connecting could result in a broken nose] rather than a kick with its greater reach and power and less control [which if connecting could very well fracture my skull]. Since I don't spar for sport, I have no axe to grind , but am curious about others' experience and thoughts . pil seung, Don Ross --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2006 08:43:24 -0900 From: Dan Scholten To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Master Dan to Sid Rubinfeld Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sid, Did you know that Mas Oyama was my teacher's first cousin? I used to get free sushi with stories I had of him when I was younger. I agree about larger organizations both the positive and the negative. The Olympics has always been about a money machine for the larger organization with nothing to benefit the individuals. The changing of the full contact rules to serve the Olympics and fear of the attorney's attempting to tap resources of a larger organization have watered down what was once a good spectator sport. Ultimatly it has been every instructors decision to allow students over the last 30 years to get away with it but frankly what choice do you have when the organization changes the rules and lowers the bar? Bottom line you do what is best for your students health and self defense. --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Beungood8@aol.com Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2006 13:28:50 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Cross training Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I can see the merit of cross training to enhance your skills and add to your art. But aren't you changing it by adding a skill that falls outside the system's underlying structure and principles? I have an instructor who uses some techniques and drills from his prior training ,but,in teaching us he fits them with in the footwork and principles of the discipline we are being taught. I think my point is adding or training in some techniques that when utilized might unravel to some degree the principles and theory of the style and framework you are mainly versed in. Hope this makes sense. Stay safe, Jack --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: "the_dojang" Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2006 15:23:03 -0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] My last word or Multi art Training Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Clark You are right, This is my opionin, based on my many years of training. In return-- your post is your opionin and believed by you and those that know you. It is also my opinion that you may have confussed many people in 40 years You said History and Tradition had no place in self-defense, but it is a part of teaching the complete art, but this is obvious something you do not do. If you choose to teach a hodge-podge of information that is your right, but I believe that if a new student comes to you, and wants to learn TKD, or TSD, or Judo, or Jujitsu. You should teach them the complete art, and only if you are legitamatley qualified. If you choose to teach them a mixed martial art, then they should be told. They should not be told that they are learning 5 different arts because that is just a lie. I do however believe you can teach or cross train on techniques barrowed from other styles if the arts do not conflict with each other phyically or in philosophy. For example I teach Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan, and I teach Jujitsu. I learned both arts from the bottom ranks by legitamate instructors, although I began my trainin in 1979. I did not begin my Jujitsu until 1992. These two arts do not conflict with each other as they use the same concepts, and philosophies. I trained in TKD in my earlier years, TKD and Soo Bahk Do do conflict in technique and in Philosophy. The techniques do not use the same mechanics, and the Sport vs MA question is there to debate. To try and teach these to styles to the same person at the same time would confuss them. And like Bruce posted about Muscle Memory would be difficult to orginize in the persons mind. I will agree to disagree on this point about learning multi. arts because we have said all that needs to be said. It is obvious you believe you are right. Probably because you teach multi arts, and you don't want to say you are wrong. That is again your opinion, and you know opinions are like buttholes we all have one and they all stink. JCGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] practice surfaces To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2006 14:42:53 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Does anyone practice joint manipulation techniques > that end with their partner flat on their back or side > while standing on a floor covered with puzzle mats? Well, is it colder in the mountains or in the winter? :) Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2006 15:55:30 -0800 (PST) From: "Bruce W. Sims" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Self-Defense Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Thanks, Rick. I think we are pretty much at the same place. I agree that a technician, no matter how "expert" will essentially only be invested in mimicry. I also a agree that an artist ought be able to introduce, or deal with, spontaneity and creativity. If I were to tie this into your original post I would say that a person would probably want to become "artistic" (read also: "spontaneous"; "creative") with one art at a time. IMVVHO. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "Joseph Cheavens" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] PACAF Airman Assualted with Knife Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2006 18:12:27 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I didn't see the pics with the original e-mail, but a friend of mine sent me an e-mail last week with the "caution - graphic photos" warning and some pretty horrible pictures of a guy with deep cuts on his torso and arms. The story that went along with it claimed it was a cop in the US that attempted to disarm a knife wielding crook. If the pics are the same, this may be one of those internet stories that are floating around with wildly exagerated stories to match pics of something more mundane. Don't know how you can tell from pics of some guy's cuts if they were made by a Korean or not. -------------------------------------------------------------------- From:  "masterm1" Reply-To:  the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To:   Subject:  [The_Dojang] PACAF Airman Assualted with Knife Date:  Sat, 11 Mar 2006 22:46:55 -0500 >Hey could a good self defense course have saved this guy. I spent 26 years in >the AF and went all over the world and never learned or heard of a self >defence course offered through the AF. > >Master M >Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2006 4:55 PM >Subject: PACAF Airman Assaulted with Knife > > >He should be transported back to the US ASAP.. > >That look like the work of a Korean..and yes, they normally carry straight >edge razor knives in their pockets.. > >Normally if you act like you got some manners they will not mess with you but >if you get too drunk and act an ass, well, this can happen......and nobody >every knows what happens to you.. > >you can tell they did not try to kill him...so I guess this was just a >reminder... > >Subject: FW: PACAF Airman Assaulted with Knife > > >Good morning, > > > >If you have a weak stomach you may not want to look. > > > >Thank You, > > > > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------------- >--- > > >From: Lopez Jose J TSgt 78 LRS/LGRTP >Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2006 9:44 AM >Subject: FW: PACAF Airman Assaulted with Knife > > > > > >Caution, pictures are graphic! > >Kunsan Staff Sergeant Michael Jones, was assaulted in an A-Town bar by unknown >assailants.  8th SFS and members of the OSI Detachment 641 B, are >investigating.  If anyone wishes to donate to the family of SSgt Jones you can >call the 8th MXS First Sergeant at 782-4041 or (281) 330-8004. > > > >José J. López, TSgt, USAF > >NCOIC, Passenger Travel > >78LRS/LGRT > >DSN: 472-0104 > >Comm: 478-222-0104 > >Fax DSN: 468-9384 > >Fax Comm: 478-926-9384 >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 12 From: "Joseph Cheavens" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] practice surfaces Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2006 18:13:36 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Yes. Why? I've also done so on various other surfaces, as well. -------------------------------------------------------------------- From:  freddie bishop Reply-To:  the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To:  the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject:  [The_Dojang] practice surfaces Date:  Sun, 12 Mar 2006 06:10:07 -0800 (PST) >  Does anyone practice joint manipulation techniques >that end with their partner flat on their back or side >while standing on a floor covered with puzzle mats? > >                                    Fred > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >http://mail.yahoo.com >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 13 From: "Joseph Cheavens" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] TKD & Olympic excitement Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2006 18:19:43 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I think its because if you allow punches to the head, people will punch more and kick less. Look at kickboxing rules, which had to include a minimum number of kicks per round. WTF thought kicks looked more spectacular and wanted to differentiate TKD from kickboxing and Karate, so they banned punches to the face so that you have to kick to the head if you want to land a head shot. Also, punches to the face would make most of the flashier jump kicks too risky to try. -------------------------------------------------------------------- From:  "Don Ross" Reply-To:  the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To:  "dojang_digest" Subject:  [The_Dojang] TKD & Olympic excitement Date:  Sun, 12 Mar 2006 12:29:33 -0500 >One of the things about tournament sparring I never understood was why, are >kicks to the head allowed but punches aren't. IMVHO, while for some of us, >hand techniques may be faster than kicks, in general, they are less powerful, >but most/all? of us have greater motor control of our hands as opposed to our >legs. For me, I believe I'd rather try to avoid a punch to the head [which if >connecting could result in a broken nose] rather than a kick with its greater >reach and power and less control [which if connecting could very well fracture >my skull]. >     Since I don't spar for sport, I have no axe to grind , but am curious >about others' experience and thoughts . > >pil seung, >Don Ross >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 14 From: "Joseph Cheavens" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: Cross training Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2006 18:27:44 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Yes and no. If, for example, an Aikido throw is more effective than the similar throw as it is taught in your TKD school, why continue to use the less efficient technique? The joint locks and throws in TKD have the same origins as those in Aikido, but Aikido has refined them to a much higher degree. TKD itself has evolved quite a bit from its Okinawan Karate roots, and there is very little that it "traditional" in TKD kicks as most schools teach them now. Rather, just as with the joint locks and throws in Aikido, TKD has taken kicking techniques to a much higher level. -------------------------------------------------------------------- From:  Beungood8@aol.com Reply-To:  the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To:  the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject:  [The_Dojang] Re: Cross training Date:  Sun, 12 Mar 2006 13:28:50 EST >I can see the merit of cross training to enhance your skills and add to  your >art.  But aren't you changing it by adding a skill that falls outside  the >system's underlying structure and principles? > >I have an instructor who uses some techniques and drills from his prior >training ,but,in teaching us he fits them with in the footwork and principles of >the discipline we are being taught. > >I think my point is adding or training in some techniques that when  utilized >might unravel to some degree the principles and theory of the style and >framework you are mainly versed in.  Hope this makes sense. > >Stay safe, > >Jack >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 15 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] practice surfaces Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2006 02:27:54 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ray, The plum tree is by the river.... Michael Tomlinson >From: Ray >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] practice surfaces >Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2006 14:42:53 -0800 (PST) > > > Does anyone practice joint manipulation techniques > > that end with their partner flat on their back or side > > while standing on a floor covered with puzzle mats? > >Well, is it colder in the mountains or in the winter? :) > >Ray Terry >rterry@idiom.com >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 16 Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2006 21:33:08 -0500 From: "Rick Clark" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: Cross training To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Jack, >From: Beungood8@aol.com [mailto:Beungood8@aol.com] >I can see the merit of cross training to enhance your skills and add to your art. But aren't you changing it by adding a skill that falls >outside the system's underlying structure and principles? I would think so, but is that a bad thing? The idea that TKD is some old ancient Korean martial art is simply fabricated history. TKD came directly from Japanese Karate, which in turn was a product of Okinawa, which according to tradition owes a strong debt to China. So, if you have a better way to perform a technique what is the difference between you changing it and some guys back in 1945 changing Shotokan to meet their needs? Quite frankly I suspect the modern martial artist has a better understanding of the martial arts, broader base, and longer time training than the guys back in 1945 who started the first Kwan. > >I have an instructor who uses some techniques and drills from his prior training ,but,in teaching us he fits them with in the footwork >and principles of the discipline we are being taught. > >I think my point is adding or training in some techniques that when utilized might unravel to some degree the principles and theory of the >style and framework you are mainly versed in. Hope this makes sense. > >Stay safe, > >Jack To a point, but if you go back to the history of an art, someone changed it to meet their needs or the needs of their students, or cultural needs. So what's the problem in changing something for the better? If you can find a better way to do a technique and you learn it from someone else or from another system why would you not add it in to what you practice? Rick Clark www.ao-denkou-kai.org --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest