Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2006 14:47:41 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 13 #125 - 10 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,100 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. RE: I love volcanoes but hate lava (PETER.MCDONALDSMITH@london-fire.gov.uk) 2. Cleveland to Host Senior National Chip (Ray Terry) 3. founders/ cross training (David Weller) 4. RE: rough landing (Joseph Cheavens) 5. RE: My last word or Multi art Training (Stovall, Craig) 6. Eskrima Digest (Ray) 7. PS: Harmony with Mr. Clark (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 8. rough landing (Stovall, Craig) 9. RE: founders/ cross training (Joseph Cheavens) 10. RE: founders/ cross training (Rick Clark) --__--__-- Message: 1 Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] I love volcanoes but hate lava Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2006 19:02:14 -0000 From: To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sid, Hate to disagree with you but I have to say that form of tkd that I do (ITF) we probably use as much legs as we do hands in sparring and the same when we do self defence. Peter -----Original Message----- From: sidtkd@aol.com [mailto:sidtkd@aol.com] Sent: 13 March 2006 11:07 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] I love volcanoes but hate lava To say we love the kicks but don't want to see hand technique disappear is a funny sttatement. Taekwondo is probabbly beeter called Tae Do inasmuch as we have so little in the way of hand technique. On the other hand Tae Soo Do as I understand it, is excessive in hand technique with little foot technique. After all these years I have come to understand that I personally would have been better suited for a form of Karate perhaps Kyokushin Kai. That for me...has it all. Low thigh kicks, gouges, punches, grappling good weapons technique and kick ass training. Be that as it may, tae kwondo is taekwondo and karate is karate. Given the litigous nature of our country, I doubt this will ever change. I think taekwondo should pretty much stay as is and we need more krate vs. tkd tournaments such as the ones S. Henry Cho ran. Just my two cents. Sid Rubinfeld _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang **************************************************************************** SMOKE ALARMS SAVE LIVES Go to London Fire at www.london-fire.gov.uk/firesafety This email is confidential to the addressee only. If you do not believe that you are the intended addressee, do not use, pass on or copy it in any way. If you have received it in error, please delete it immediately and telephone the supplied number, reversing the charges if necessary. --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2006 11:07:38 -0800 From: "Ray Terry" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Cleveland to Host Senior National Chip Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Cleveland to Host 2006 Senior National Championships March 13, 2006 USA Taekwondo has announced that Cleveland, Ohio, will play host to the 2006 Senior National Taekwondo Championships. The 32nd annual version of the event will take place at the Cleveland Convention Center, Nov. 3-5. Cleveland also played host to the event in 2001. "We are very excited about bringing the Senior National Championships back to a great city like Cleveland," said USA Taekwondo CEO David Askinas. "Cleveland has been a terrific host in the past and we expect the Taekwondo communities in Cleveland and the state of Ohio to again show strong support for this important event." In addition to crowning national champions in numerous age categories and weight divisions, the Senior National Championships also determine qualifiers for the 2007 Senior National Team. The top four men and top four women in each of the World Class Senior Black Belt divisions will advance to the Senior National Team Trials in January of 2007. "The City of Cleveland is honored and excited to be hosting the 2006 USAT National Championships," said Cleveland Sports Commission President David Gilbert. "The event was a real success here in 2001, and we look forward to working with USAT and our strong Taekwondo community to make it even better this year." --__--__-- Message: 3 From: David Weller Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2006 13:44:07 -0600 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] founders/ cross training Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net But Mr. Clark, they were God-like in their clarity of vision and knew from the start what path their Art would take, and exactly what it would look like in 20 years. I mean, they were taught by secretive monks and in far flung foreign lands and stuff! What they know must come from some deeper knowledge than mere mortals possess! Look at the derision that is heaped on the "founders" of today. If someone says they have developed a "new" Marital Arts style, everyone and their dog jumps in and discredits their credentials, training and general hygiene and claims that NO ONE (except the original "founder" of their art) can take various techniques from various styles and produce a "real" martial style. Why it nears blasphemy to think so! If this forum had existed when Choi or Ji or Kee or any one of the founders of one of the "traditional" arts of today were developing their arts, imagine the dialog that would occur when we discussed their training histories, their teachers and the foundations of their arts. dave weller On Mar 13, 2006, at 5:00 AM, the_dojang- request@martialartsresource.net wrote: > This may be at odds with some who consider themselves > "traditional" but I believe it can be argued that the "founders" > themselves modified what they had been taught and incorporated new > ideas > into what they were teaching. --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Joseph Cheavens" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] rough landing Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2006 13:56:49 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I'm surprised that they would be having you do these techniques full speed without having taught you how to do breakfalls using mats first. Seems irresponsible to me. We did take downs and throws on a wooden floor in my first dojang, but the takedowns were done slowly and with control (i.e. the person doing the throw would hang on to the uke's uniform or arm and slow their fall). We did not do any flying break falls without mats. At the last dojang where I trained and taught, we did break falls and rolls on puzzle mats over concrete, but the level of difficulty involved in both the throw and the required breakfall or roll was taylored to the skill level of the students. We also had Judo and Hapkido classes that used the same floor. -------------------------------------------------------------------- From:  freddie bishop Reply-To:  the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To:  the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject:  [The_Dojang] rough landing Date:  Mon, 13 Mar 2006 02:56:59 -0800 (PST) >I'm being taught "jujitsuish" techniques at karate >class without the benefit of fall mats, a rough >landing indeed. The training only gets more rigourous >as you climb the ranks, but thats a fact you all know >well. I just can't seem to flip myself over enough to >break my fall. I keep landing on my butt in an upright >position in some of the techniques. Puzzle mats cover >the floor, not much give. I've probably spent as much >time at the chiropractors' office as I have in karate >class. If I had known this type of training was >included I would have kept looking for a school in the >name of saving my back from possible permanent injury. >So, practicing trips, takedowns and some throws on >puzzle mats must be a common practice. If I wanted to >learn this type of stuff I would have sought out an >expert in hapkido, judo or jujitsu. > >                                 fred > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >http://mail.yahoo.com >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2006 13:58:58 -0600 From: "Stovall, Craig" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: My last word or Multi art Training Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Note to self...do not get in a debate with Rick Clark. Moving along...I guess my chips tend to land in the same pile as Rick's on this issue, but with all things the issue is always more complex than the dual camps that tend to spring up around these issues. Personally, crosstraining has always been a positive experience for me, and I never thought that it hindered my development as a martial artist. To the contrary, I owe whatever skill and knowledge I now possess to the fact that I set out to learn different things. Now, in fairness I had been training about 5 years in pure TKD until I branched out and was fortunate enough to start training in JKD Concepts and Filipino Martial Arts (all the other stuff came later). Can't say for sure if things would have turned out as well if I had begun pursuing such a diverse path from the beginning. I have seen some that did so and flourished, and I've seen others that drowned in the detail. As with all things, it never seems to be the "path" or the "way" that makes the difference so much as what the individual brings to the table. Smart, talented, focused, determined people will succeed, and the opposite type seems to fail no matter how much you tilt the odds in their favor. Having said all of that I tend to err on the side of simplicity and suggest that people wade around in one pool for awhile before they jump into the next one. How long that wading period needs to last is more up to the individual as opposed to some universal rule. Where I do see people screw up is that they have absolutely no guiding vision as to why they crosstrain. Some people will just train whatever in the hopes that if you throw enough mud against the barn door that some of that shit will stick. Fair enough. The more successful crosstrainers seem to have a guiding strategy that aids them in their selection process (assuming a diverse choice is available). For example, they may use the lens of technical/tactical needs in order to assess where their training needs to focus next. A TKD black belt may recognize that her art is woefully inadequate at the grappling range, and may pursue some study of Judo, Hapkido, Sambo, BJJ, etc in order to round out the knowledge base and feel more comfortable at that range. Other people may use some sort of cultural or ethnocentric paradigm in order to guide their journey. Many people really hang their hat on being a KMA practitioner, so their journey may take them through the "Big 3" of TKD, Hapkido, and Gum Do. At a more practical level, a LEO or military professional may focus on the more popular programs that address a streamlined approach to combatives...Krav Maga, Tactical Focus Training, Applegate/Fairbairn style combatives, etc. I guess the last thing you want to be is the guy at the water cooler who relates to you, "Yeah, I used to train Monky Gung-fu but I didn't like that so I took up Muay Thai but it hurt my shins so I took up Tang Soo Do because I heard that's what Chuck Norris did and I always liked him on Walker Texas Ranger and then after I got my green belt in that...". My own current approach is guided by an MMA paradigm, and so the material is added and subtracted through the filter of competition (NHB/MMA/Vale Tudo, submission wrestling, various combat athletics, etc). Still, some people will just see a hodge podge, and others will see an integrated approach that seems to fit together and functions quite well. Again, it's hardly ever the "thing" that's being looked at, but rather the inclination that the observer brings to the table. Rick brings up a good point about people being vehemently against crosstraining because of "tradition" or "path work" considerations, but at the end of the day it's more often than not about people controlling enrollment numbers and solidifying the tribal hierarchy. Or...maybe none of the above. Just train. --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Ray To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2006 12:53:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] Eskrima Digest Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Speaking of cross-training... for those that might be interested. Ray ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Do you practice Eskrima, Escrima, Kali, Arnis, Eskrido, Dumog or some other Filipino martial art? Then join the Filipino martial arts e-mail forum, the premier internet discussion forum devoted to the FMAs. The Eskrima list is a 2,200 member e-mail distribution forum for the respectful discussion of the Filipino martial arts... for those wheresoever dispersed around the globe. 12 years of continuous operation. The list is managed by "Mailman". To subscribe to the Eskrima list go to: http://eskrima-fma.net -aka- http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Brought to you by http://MartialArtsResource.com and Sudlud Eskrima Mabuhay ang eskrima! --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: "the_dojang" Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2006 15:24:29 -0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] PS: Harmony with Mr. Clark Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Clark I want to first say I regret that this discussion has come to this. In your previous post, I felt like you were being somewhat disrespectful. I, wrongfully, added some disrespectfull wording in my reply. In any event I apologize for that. It is obvious to me you are well educated in the history or martial arts, although I do not know your background, what styles you teach, or where you received your training. I would like to reply to your last post The subject of my last post was "the last word", however I felt it neccessary to mend a fense. We can agree that we have a difference in opinion, although neither of us know each other, or have first hand knowledge of what we teach, how we teach, or the understanding of the students we teach. As for History and Tradition, I still believe that these things are part of teaching a complete martial art. I teach my students the complete histroy and traditions of Soo Bahk Do using all the verifiable information I have available. I do agree with you that both history and tradition is sometimes a bit suspect, but I make a honest and sincere attempt to educate my students on the history and traditions of Soo Bahk Do and the Moo Duk Kwan. At my do-Jang we also have a quarterly class on history and tradition of all martial arts beginning with Greece 4000 years ago, and the evelution to modern times. The comment I made about a hodge-podge of information confussing people is true in my opinion. You are right that Gandmaster Hwang Kee studied a hodge-podge of information, not becasue he was cross training, but because, that was all that was available to him. If you go a little deeper. He spent the last 40 years of his life trying to reconnect to the history and traditions of Soo Bahk as the acient art of Korea. He traslated the MYDBTJ. He changed the name to Soo Bahk Do, He created the Yuk Ro Hyungs from the MYDBTJ, etc. There is some truth in your post about all martial arts have crossed and evolved over the years. The founder of Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan made a sincere attempt to unravel all the confussion that was caused by the Japanese occupation and the mixing of arts that was caused by that event. This was something he did after WW-II. He did not know himself before that, because he was getting a hodge-podge of information, although he trained and developed into a great martial artist. His first school November 9, 1945 was Moo Duk Kwan, but he called the system Hwa Soo Do becasue he had limited knowledge of Soo Bahk, or the history of Korean Martial arts. He was already at that time to trying to reconnect to the Hwa Rang by using this name. When students come to me I explain that I teach Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan. I explain to them the history of Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan during thier training. I do not offer Jujitsu to begining students, however when I feel they have a good understanding/foundation they are invited to cross train. This is ussually after they have made Cho Dan and after they are 18 years old. I then explain the complete history and tradition of Jujitsu, and make comparisions for them between the arts. I live near a school that teaches 10 styles, all advertized in the window of the school. I know the instructor and many of the students. It is sad Because neither represent any one of the arts well, they can demonstrate only portions of the arts techniques, and a confussed view of the martial arts in general much less any one complete art specifically. Coggnitive vs muscle memory--- What I ment in my post was that in Soo Bahk Do and Tae Kwon Do--- these two arts demonstrate basic techniques with simular but very different mechanics. If I practice hundreds and thousands of repetitions one way my body becomes quick to respond that way, A better example may be Soo Bahk Do and Isshinryu Karate. The kicks are not even close in style, If I practice them both, which will my body do when forced to react with out thought. I will also agree it is nice to find a martial artist as passionate as I am. Respectfully; JC Cox www.mdkregionsix.comGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2006 15:28:14 -0600 From: "Stovall, Craig" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] rough landing Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <<>> Well, an old "croddy" teacher of mine used to throw us around on a tile floor. A good breakfall fell under the category of "technical training", and a bad breakfall fell under the category of "body tempering". We preferred the "technical training". I've rolled on and have been thrown onto puzzle mats. No, they aren't the cushiest of surfaces, but there was a time when I would have considered them a luxury. I do admit that they leave a mat burn from hell. There's basically two problems here. One...you don't know how to properly breakfall. Two...your instructor is either unable or not interested in teaching you. The good news is that both of these problems are highly correctable. Seek instruction in breakfalls or go find a better learning environment, altogether. Bottom line...there is no "puzzle mat falling technique". There are only breakfalls, and they are the same for all surfaces. Learn 'em, love 'em, live 'em. --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Joseph Cheavens" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] founders/ cross training Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2006 15:43:53 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Actually, the lineage of some of those guys and what they did is a topic of debate, especially General Choi. -------------------------------------------------------------------- From:  David Weller Reply-To:  the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To:  the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject:  [The_Dojang] founders/ cross training Date:  Mon, 13 Mar 2006 13:44:07 -0600 >But Mr. Clark, they were God-like in their clarity of vision and >knew  from the start what path their Art would take, and exactly >what it  would look like in 20 years. I mean, they were taught by >secretive  monks and in far flung foreign lands and stuff!  What >they know must  come from some deeper knowledge than mere mortals >possess! > >Look at the derision that is heaped on the "founders" of today. If   >someone says they have developed a "new" Marital Arts style, >everyone  and their dog jumps in and discredits their credentials, >training and  general hygiene and claims that NO ONE (except the >original "founder"  of their art) can take various techniques from >various styles and  produce a "real" martial style. Why it nears >blasphemy to think so! > >If this forum had existed when Choi or Ji or Kee or any one of the   >founders of one of the "traditional" arts of today were developing   >their arts, imagine the dialog that would occur when we discussed   >their training histories, their teachers and the foundations of >their  arts. > > >dave weller > > >On Mar 13, 2006, at 5:00 AM, the_dojang- >request@martialartsresource.net wrote: > >>  This may be at odds with some who consider themselves >>"traditional" but I believe it can be argued that the "founders" >>themselves modified what they had been taught and incorporated new   >>ideas >>into what they were teaching. >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2006 17:21:47 -0500 From: "Rick Clark" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] founders/ cross training To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi David, >From: David Weller [mailto:dweller@greatbend.com] >But Mr. Clark, they were God-like in their clarity of vision and knew >from the start what path their Art would take, and exactly what it >would look like in 20 years. I mean, they were taught by secretive >monks and in far flung foreign lands and stuff! What they know must >come from some deeper knowledge than mere mortals possess! What was I thinking! I bow to your superior knowledge! Indeed a 7 year old who begins his quest to become a master at 22 and found an art is truly god like. Heck guys like that could be born under Japanese occupation, practice outlawed martial arts in secret. Oh and it was around 1939 that WW 2 started with the German invasion of Poland. Then the Japanese attacked China in 1937, so until 1945 there was a country at war. I should guess there would have been a lot of time to practice the martial arts then. Oh and lest we forget 1950 to 1953 there was the Korean War, lots of time for folks to practice the martial arts. To be honest how much time do you think people had to practice the martial arts, or were they more concerned with surviving each day and getting food for their family? > >Look at the derision that is heaped on the "founders" of today. If someone says they have developed a "new" Marital Arts style, everyone >and their dog jumps in and discredits their credentials, training and general hygiene and claims that NO ONE (except the original "founder" >of their art) can take various techniques from various styles and produce a "real" martial style. Why it nears blasphemy to think so! All things are impermanent and constantly subject to change, a bit of Buddhist philosophy, so why should we think that the martial arts system we practice not change? > >If this forum had existed when Choi or Ji or Kee or any one of the founders of one of the "traditional" arts of today were developing >their arts, imagine the dialog that would occur when we discussed their training histories, their teachers and the foundations of their >arts. They caught grief from the other "masters" and their senior students. I know how my instructor used to tell me that one of the other systems was made up of "shoe shine boys" and our system was mostly doctors, lawyers, high rank politicians. He was slamming the social economic status of this other group, and trying to pump up the group he represented. When I was young I thought it was funny, but today I look back at the comments and simply shake my head. > > >dave weller Rick Clark www.ao-denkou-kai.org --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest