Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2006 19:50:22 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 13 #126 - 10 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,100 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Response to Sid Rubinfeld (Dan Scholten) 2. RE: PS: Harmony with Mr. Clark (Rick Clark) 3. Injury Care & Prevention Book (Ray Terry) 4. Re: rough landing (Jesse Segovia) 5. Yuk Ro Hyung (Rick Clark) 6. Baduk Club Closings Mark End of Era (Ray Terry) 7. Kicks (Ray) 8. Re: Response to Sid Rubinfeld (Ray) 9. cross training (rich hodder) 10. RE: Kicks (Rick Clark) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2006 14:11:24 -0900 From: Dan Scholten To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Response to Sid Rubinfeld Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Regarding TKD full contact to head, I believe the original thinking was separating us from boxing and PKA by allowing only head contact with feet also since it is much harder against an equal opponent to get a good shot to the head there would be less actual repeated contact to the head causing long term damage over time for amateur athletes. So the concern was for both health and quality of contact. I beg to differ on the issue of what is more deadly regarding feet and hands. The issue of deadly force by law enforcement related to feet is one of kicking with shoes on when a person is down to a vital area. In fact all deadly force is related to PSI impact ratio's hence 400 PSI to skull is deadly force so anything used that can develop that is considered deadly force. Getting back to a spinning round house kick over a punch having better physics I beg to disagree. First no one stands still and waits to be hit also use a radar scope the speed of a punch is considerably faster. My GM's cousin did not go into Bull Rings and Kill Bulls with a spinning kick he used his bare hands to stop their hearts. The people I trained and started with since the first World TKD tournament were so strong with their hands and could drop so much Chi that people would have died if they took the gloves off and hit a lung or heart hit point at conception or chest points right through the chest protector. I am not advocating one technique over the other I like the Naturopathic philosophy of (Not Only But Also) which means any extremism that focuses on just one thing to the exclusion of another is usually unhealthy. Kicks and Hands compliment each other Punches can wear the person down or open them up to get that head shot or kicks can wear them down to knock them out with well placed punches. I am just concerned about the lost art of fighting with hands to the exclusive use of kicks and watching for points instead of one man standing. People are not keeping their hands up and they are allowed to score to the head while falling down?? Plus there is a lack of any good scoring hits to much clashing to the outside which scores no point. We hosted the 1990 nationals and the elite fighting team from the OTC was there and failed to win a single 1st 2nd or 3rd place position in fighting, I watched the Korean Master question them to hold up their hands with how many winners and when finished he walked away disgusted. I watched them train in our Do Jang with all the special foot work and yells and was really impressed till I watched it applied. Best fighter I personally trained with that took 3rd in the second World Tournament just used a reverse punch and a front snap kick but you would not want to get hit with it. So I believe we need to get back to some basics combined with current thinking. Hey does anybody remember Count Dante The guy who was a self proclaimed Kung Fu killer teaching all these killing techniques, some Korean masters got fed up and went into his Do Jang , he locked himself in a locker and some of his black belts go messed up pretty bad??? --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2006 19:06:50 -0500 From: "Rick Clark" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] PS: Harmony with Mr. Clark To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Mr. Cox, >From: Gladewater SooBahkDo [mailto:gladewatersoobahkdo@msn.com] >Mr. Clark > >I want to first say I regret that this discussion has come to >this. In your previous post, I felt like you were being >somewhat disrespectful. I, wrongfully, added some >disrespectfull wording in my reply. In any event I apologize >for that. It is obvious to me you are well educated in the >history or martial arts, although I do not know your >background, what styles you teach, or where you received your >training. I would like to reply to your last post The subject >of my last post was "the last word", however I felt it >neccessary to mend a fense. I try very hard not to be disrespectful in any of my posts, no matter how much I would like be a bit more blunt. If my posts were perceived as disrespectful I am sorry. > >We can agree that we have a difference in opinion, although >neither of us know each other, or have first hand knowledge >of what we teach, how we teach, or the understanding of the >students we teach. Indeed and that is to be expected. > >As for History and Tradition, I still believe that these >things are part of teaching a complete martial art. I teach my >students the complete histroy and traditions of Soo Bahk Do >using all the verifiable information I have available. I do >agree with you that both history and tradition is sometimes a >bit suspect, but I make a honest and sincere attempt to >educate my students on the history and traditions of Soo Bahk >Do and the Moo Duk Kwan. At my do-Jang we also have a >quarterly class on history and tradition of all martial arts >beginning with Greece 4000 years ago, and the evelution to >modern times. I applaud your effort to do this, I would offer you a bit of unsolicited advice. Take what information Koreans put out as martial arts history with more than a grain of salt. From my experience they have taken more than basic liberty with facts. > >The comment I made about a hodge-podge of information >confussing people is true in my opinion. You are right that >Gandmaster Hwang Kee studied a hodge-podge of information, not >becasue he was cross training, but because, that was all that >was available to him. I guess I don't understand this. How is it different to study different systems because that's all that was available or to make a conscious decisions to study a particular art. The result is the same, you are studying different systems. When I started the martial arts back in 1962 I did not have the ability to pick and choose what I would study. I would study anything and everything that came my way. That got me into the mind set of cross training, and it did not seem to hurt my development. In fact I had some advantages from my cross training. For example when I was in Korea my TKD instructors were fantastic with their kicking techniques and my skill improved due to their help. BUT I had a background in Judo and Jujitsu that they did not have and so I was able to provide some techniques to some of them in return to what I was being taught. > If you go a little deeper. He spent the last 40 years of his life trying to reconnect to the history >and traditions of Soo Bahk as the ancient art of Korea. I am a bit of a skeptic in such matters. It seems to me that all of the Korean founders were trying and continue to try to erase the simple fact that their arts were based on Japanese / Okinawan systems. I fail to see any Chinese influence in the arts, other than what they have tried to add in, I suspect it grates on the Korean ego less to say they have a connection to China than to Japan. > He >traslated the MYDBTJ. He changed the name to Soo Bahk Do, He >created the Yuk Ro Hyungs from the MYDBTJ, etc. I have no idea what the Yuk Ro Hyung look like but I suspect they have a lot in common with the Pyung-ahn forms. Just as the ITF forms have a lot of common techniques with the Pyung-Ahn forms. Why? Because the folks that created the ITF forms and the Yuk Ro forms had studied the Pyung-ahn forms. Now, what is the difference between you or I making up some new forms and saying that after a great deal of study and contemplation we have developed some new forms based on the American experience. > There is some >truth in your post about all martial arts have crossed and >evolved over the years. The founder of Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk >Kwan made a sincere attempt to unravel all the confussion that >was caused by the Japanese occupation and the mixing of arts >that was caused by that event. This was something he did after >WW-II. He did not know himself before that, because he was >getting a hodge-podge of information, although he trained and >developed into a great martial artist. His first school >November 9, 1945 was Moo Duk Kwan, but he called the system >Hwa Soo Do becasue he had limited knowledge of Soo Bahk, or >the history of Korean Martial arts. He was already at that >time to trying to reconnect to the Hwa Rang by using this name. OK he had a limited knowledge yet at 22 he was considered to be a master? A master of what? Was it what he was going to create after the war, or what he had practiced. Look I am not trying to break down all of the nice stories that the Korean instructors tell us, but I really don't believe what they say. They used the Hwa Rang and some ancient stone sculptures to say that their art has it roots to these ancient arts. Taking the MYDBTJ and translating it then pulling some techniques out of it is like me taking the Bubushi and saying that I am putting together a martial art based on the movements in the Bubushi. Its nice story, but I as I say I am a skeptic. > >When students come to me I explain that I teach Soo Bahk Do >Moo Duk Kwan. I explain to them the history of Soo Bahk Do Moo >Duk Kwan during thier training. I do not offer Jujitsu to >begining students, however when I feel they have a good >understanding/foundation they are invited to cross train. >This is ussually after they have made Cho Dan and after they >are 18 years old. Why 18 years old? Hwang Kee according to some started by 7 and by 22 was a master. So I should guess at 18 he would have been well on his way and would have been studding more than one art my then, but that's just a guess on my part. > I then explain the complete history and >tradition of Jujitsu, and make comparisions for them between >the arts. I live near a school that teaches 10 styles, all >advertized in the window of the school. I know the instructor >and many of the students. It is sad Because neither represent >any one of the arts well, they can demonstrate only portions >of the arts techniques, and a confussed view of the martial >arts in general much less any one complete art specifically. Well not everyone is the same, I would suggest that you do not judge others by the actions of the one you are familiar with. >Coggnitive vs muscle memory--- What I ment in my post was that >in Soo Bahk Do and Tae Kwon Do--- these two arts demonstrate >basic techniques with simular but very different mechanics. If >I practice hundreds and thousands of repetitions one way my >body becomes quick to respond that way, A better example may >be Soo Bahk Do and Isshinryu Karate. The kicks are not even >close in style, If I practice them both, which will my body do >when forced to react with out thought. This is interesting, because back in the 80's I used to work out with a 7th dan in Isshin-ryu and would participate in their classes. I never tested for rank in Isshin-ryu. I went there for a couple of reasons, one it was convenient to where I was living and I wanted to learn a bit about sai and bo. I had no desire to learn their empty hand kata, as I liked what I was practicing better. But I digress, they do punch a bit different, vertical fist as opposed to the twist punch. The stances they used most often were different than the stances I used most often, BUT those Isshin-ryu stances could be found in TKD. This brings me to a question I have had for a long time. I have practiced Korean, Japanese, and Okinawan arts and I really don't see that much difference in the techniques. For example a front kick can be a thrust or a snap, the target area is limited by the human body, it can be performed off the front leg, back leg, jump, stepping back, or combinations of the aforementioned. To execute a front kick you bring your knee up and kick out with the ball of your foot, the tip of your toes, your heel, or flat of the foot. So - what makes a front kick different from Shotokan, TKD, SBD, Isshin-ryu or any other similar system? >I will also agree it is nice to find a martial artist as >passionate as I am. Perhaps not as passionate, but I do have my views, and try to communicate them :-) > >Respectfully; > >JC Cox Rick Clark www.ao-denkou-kai.org --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2006 16:23:19 -0800 From: "Ray Terry" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Injury Care & Prevention Book Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Trish Bare-Grounds' Injury Care & Prevention Book Now Available March 13, 2006 The 2nd edition of The Bare Essentials Guide for Martial Arts Injury Care & Prevention has been released by Turtle Press, and is available at www.turtlepress.com , www.amazon.com , as well as Barnes & Nobles Bookstores. The video is now also available on DVD. --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2006 19:38:18 -0500 From: Jesse Segovia To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: rough landing Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net freddie bishop wrote: > I'm being taught "jujitsuish" techniques at karate > class without the benefit of fall mats, a rough > landing indeed. The training only gets more rigourous > as you climb the ranks, but thats a fact you all know > well. I just can't seem to flip myself over enough to > break my fall. I keep landing on my butt in an upright > position in some of the techniques. Puzzle mats cover > the floor, not much give. I've probably spent as much > time at the chiropractors' office as I have in karate > class. If I had known this type of training was > included I would have kept looking for a school in the > name of saving my back from possible permanent injury. > So, practicing trips, takedowns and some throws on > puzzle mats must be a common practice. If I wanted to > learn this type of stuff I would have sought out an > expert in hapkido, judo or jujitsu. I'm not sure from your post what you're posting about - are you looking for tips on how to teach yourself flip falling? I went back to Hapkido in my late-30s and had completely forgotten how to fall. I knew I wasn't going to learn hoshinsul unless I could work out with the instructor and higher belts, and unless I could throw and be thrown. So after each class I asked the senior students to throw me around a bit. It hurt like %^&* being thrown and not knowing how to fall (plus we had a very thin, very old red wrestling mat that ate toes and elbows for breakfast, lunch and dinner) but I didn't know any other way than to just do it. I also video taped myself doing flip falls into a swimming pool - I saw why I was landing on my head and/or my hip and did my best to correct it. My problem was not committing fully. I was scared I was going to land on my head and break my neck so I hesitated, or rolled myself off to the side. I didn't give myself fully to the technique, which is in actual fact much more dangerous! I learned to push off of the ground with both feet so that my hips were going up into the air, which gave me enough clearance so my head wouldn't hit. I also learned to give in to the person throwing me. I let him or her do most of the work. Eventually you're not 'doing' anything when you fall - it's just happening. Good luck! I know how frustrating it is to not be able to do it. The only way I knew was to just do it, and keep doing it. Jesse --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2006 20:27:04 -0500 From: "Rick Clark" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Yuk Ro Hyung Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In a recent thread the Yuk Ro Hung of SBD has been mentioned. I did a bit of a search on the web trying to find out if there was a site that would give me some idea of what the forms look like. If anyone knows of a site that shows some MPEG's of the forms or at least some JPEG's of the forms I would appreciate the link. Thanks in advance, Rick Clark "I am not young enough to know everything." - Oscar Wilde www.ao-denkou-kai.org --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2006 18:29:17 -0800 From: "Ray Terry" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Baduk Club Closings Mark End of Era Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Baduk Club Closings Mark End of Era MARCH 14, 2006 Around 6:30 p.m. on March 10, the clicking sounds of individual baduk stones being placed on boards could be heard at the Hwarang Baduk Club in Seoul. The glares of the two amateur, white-haired baduk players engrossed in their game, the Korean version of the board game "go," were fierce enough to pierce through the board. They were the first customers club owner Yoo Hae-woon, 63, had after opening the club at midday and after watching reruns of old TV shows on cable TV for six hours. With a smile on his whole face, Yoo gave playing tips to the players. Around 8:00 p.m., eight older men came in, filling the baduk club with roars of laughter and sighs of frustration. When it was past midnight, some said, "Let's go home," but no one actually left. They all agreed to pleas of "one more match," and left at around 2:00 a.m., seemingly addicted to the game of baduk. Up until 10 years ago, Hwarang Baduk Club was a famous spot with an approximately 60-pyeong space with 100 seats for players. It was so popular that one had to wait in line just to get in. Now the club has shrunk to about 20 pyeong, and to make ends meet, the remaining 40 pyeong has been converted into a comic book store. To play in the club for an entire day costs 4,000 won, the same price as 10 years ago. But the number of customers coming to the club has diminished to around 10 per day. They are the club's regular customers who live nearby. "I earned about six million won per month 10 years ago, but nowadays I run the club with the monthly one million won that comes from the comic book store," Yoo says. Baduk clubs that played the role of community gathering spots in the 1980s and 1990s are now vanishing. Although there are no exact statistics, experts estimate that the number of clubs has fallen by about 90 percent compared to that of a decade ago. The Internet baduk craze that began to spread in the mid 1990s has hit brick and mortar baduk clubs hard. The editor-in-chief of "Monthly Baduk" magazine Lee Sung-koo, 41, said, "Baduk clubs had their heyday until the early 1990s with the influence of professional players such as Cho Hun-hyun and Lee Chang-ho, but with the advent of Internet baduk, their number started to shrink drastically. It is not that the number of baduk players has shrunk, but the number of players going to baduk clubs has decreased." Internet baduk site memberships have increased annually. The number of visitors to the Hangame Baduk site was around 230,000 in September 2004, but last month, the number of visitors was 720,000. The number of members of Netbaduk has increased by an average of 1,500 everyday, and now the site's membership amounts to over three million. Kim Dong-chul, 33, who has played baduk online for three years, said, "Online baduk is much more efficient than offline clubs because you can play anytime with someone on your own level." Nevertheless, club aficionados cannot hide their sense of loss. Kim Chang-bok, 62, who says he has been coming to the Hwarang Baduk Club almost everyday for the past 15 years, said, "Baduk that you play at club, drinking a cup of tea, face to face with your opponent, is true baduk." --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Ray To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2006 18:44:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] Kicks Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > This brings me to a question I have had for a long time. I have > practiced Korean, Japanese, and Okinawan arts and I really don't see > that much difference in the techniques. For example a front kick can be > a thrust or a snap, the target area is limited by the human body, it can > be performed off the front leg, back leg, jump, stepping back, or > combinations of the aforementioned. To execute a front kick you bring > your knee up and kick out with the ball of your foot, the tip of your > toes, your heel, or flat of the foot. So - what makes a front kick > different from Shotokan, TKD, SBD, Isshin-ryu or any other similar > system? I think it is their concept of being 'grounded' that makes their front kick, and most other kicks, very different. It is just a different approach to kicking. There are obviously pros and cons to 'gripping the ground with your toes/feet', but you don't see that in the kicks of TKD or HKD or Taekkyon. If you just watch the kicking leg, not much difference. However if you watch the entire body, very different. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Response to Sid Rubinfeld To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2006 18:47:37 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Regarding TKD full contact to head, I believe the original thinking was > separating us from boxing and PKA by allowing only head contact with feet > also since it is much harder against an equal opponent to get a good shot to > the head there would be less actual repeated contact to the head causing > long term damage over time for amateur athletes. So the concern was for both > health and quality of contact. Boxing, yes, imo. The PKA came along later. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "rich hodder" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2006 03:07:44 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] cross training Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I hate cross training, I always end up with holes in my hands and feet, and feeling like I was hung up to dry _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2006 22:33:00 -0500 From: "Rick Clark" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Kicks To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Ray, >From: Ray [mailto:rterry@idiom.com] >> This brings me to a question I have had for a long time. I have practiced Korean, Japanese, and Okinawan arts and I really don't see >> that much difference in the techniques. For example a front kick can be a thrust or a snap, the target area is limited by the human body, >> it can be performed off the front leg, back leg, jump, stepping back, or combinations of the aforementioned. To execute a front kick you >> bring your knee up and kick out with the ball of your foot, the tip of your toes, your heel, or flat of the foot. So - what makes a front >> kick different from Shotokan, TKD, SBD, Isshin-ryu or any other similar system? > >I think it is their concept of being 'grounded' that makes their front kick, and most other kicks, very different. It is >just a different approach to kicking. There are obviously pros and cons to 'gripping the ground >with your toes/feet', but you don't see that in the kicks of TKD or HKD or Taekkyon. > >If you just watch the kicking leg, not much difference. However if you watch the entire body, very different. I don't think I understand what you are trying to get it with this. Are you saying that TKD does not look at "gripping the ground"? If that's the point you are making, I would have to disagree, at least from the Chung Do Kwan I was taught. Perhaps the more modern approach is different than what I was taught and practice. But in all of the systems I have been taught, stability of the base leg for a kick was an important factor in the execution of any kicking technique. I think if you were to put 5 equally skilled individuals from 5 different arts all doing a front snap kick, to the mid section, from the rear leg - I really think it would be next to impossible to distinguish what system each was representing. Even if you had a list of their styles I think any that you correctly identify their style. If you did I think it would probably be more a matter of luck. Rick Clark www.ao-denkou-kai.org --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest