Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2006 07:39:15 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 13 #128 - 10 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,100 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Kicks - Holy Cow- This is a good discussion (Luther Veuleman) 2. RE: Kicks (Giancarlo Fusco) 3. RE: Kicks (Rick Clark) 4. Rough Landing (E. Montgomery) 5. Re: Kicks - Holy Cow- This is a good discussion (Ray) 6. Re: Kicks (Ray) 7. RE: Kicks (Rick Clark) 8. RE: Kicks - Holy Cow- This is a good discussion (Rick Clark) 9. Re: Kicks (Joseph Cheavens) 10. Front Kicks & History (Burdick, Dakin Robert) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2006 22:26:42 -0800 (PST) From: Luther Veuleman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Kicks - Holy Cow- This is a good discussion Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Rick, Ray, Okay, kicking the crap out of someone. Now you guys are talking my language. Heres what the book writers say: (excerpts) C. Alexander Simpkins, "Chung Do Kwan: The Power Of Tae Kwon Do" The front kick flows most naturally from the front stance. Body faces front, with hips straight ahead. Striking point is the ball of the foot. Lift your back leg forward, bending your knee until upper leg is beyond horizontal with the ground. Thrust your leg outward to strike with the ball of your foot. Allow your upper body to come forward slightly as you kick, leaning forward tightening your stomach muscles to unify your upper and lower body. ( Figure 6-3 on page 49 shows this kick in its extension phase, and the author has his back leg lifted, only the ball of the supporting leg makes contact with the ground. Kicking leg knee is upward.) "Hand To Hand Fighting: Karate/Tae-Kwon-Do" US ARMY MANUAL ST 31-204, Fort Bragg, North Carolina Boot Toe, used in front kicking to attack face, solar plexus, ribs, groin, knee joints, etc. (Figure on Page 33 shows a VERY grippy looking boot bottom, and the kickers supporting leg is shown with the knee at what appears to be a 45 degree angle outward. Kicking leg knee is upward. ) Sihak Henry Cho, "Tae Kwon Do Secrets Of Korean Karate" Front Snap Kick; The knee plays a very important role in the delivery of the front snap kick. Because good balance can be maintaiend easily after making the kick, this type of kick is best used in combination attacks. Assuming a front stance, curl up the toes of your rear foot, and flex your ankle slightly. Simutaneously, raise your knee so the upper leg is parallel with the floor. Your lower leg should be cocked backward toward the thigh. The kick is executed with a snapping motion of your knee while raising the thigh slightly. The supporting knee should be slightly bent and body posture should be straight to maintain good balance. Front Thrust Kick; (same start) before delivering the kick, bring your knee as high as possible toward your chest. Simultaneously thrust the foot forward to the target in a slightly rising direction, whipping the ball of the foot forward. Push your hip slightly forward with the power of your whole body. Supporting foot should be slightly open, facing at an angle to the direction of your body movement in order to allow your kicking side to lean slightly forward with the kick but maintain good balance. (Unfortunatly, I loaned my Shotokan Books to a buddy, but this is almost 100% the same) Richard Chun "Moo Duk Kwan Tae Kwon Do Korean Art Of Self Defense Volume 1" Front Kick Assume a front stance, although a back or horseback stance may also be substituted, raise your kicking leg so that your thigh is parallel to the floor and point your knee at the target. The arch of your foot should be pointing down while your toes are drawn back. The knee of your stationary leg should be slightly bent. Extend and lock your kicking leg staight forward from the knee, keeping your arch down, your instep tensed and your toes drawn back. Make contact with the ball of your foot, and thrust your hip forward with the kick for greater power while maintaining balance with your other leg. (the picture shows the kicker making a very high kick, supporting knee 45 degrees outward) Duk Sung Son "Korean Karate The Art Of Tae Kwon Do" The Tae Kwon Do kick involves bringing up the upper leg at least to a horizontal position first and then snapping out the kick with the lower leg. There is no interval between the two motions. The power of the kick is equal to the mass times the acceleration. The striking surface is the ball of the foot. This necessitates the keeping of the toes curled back. When the kick is in progress the student bends forward at the waist into the kick. (the picture shows the kicker with his chest very close to his knee at the moment of extension) Wow. Okay. Sorry to put everyone through that. I'll let Rick and Ray talk it out. In my O so Very Humble and only 12 years in the arts, I think it is tough to tell it apart. Some teacher always have their students throw it from a front stance, some switch it up and have them throw it from fighting or back stances, some do both for variance. I don't buy (obviously) WTF style or even ITF/USTA type Tae Kwon Do books, but their main difference is in the side kick. The front kick is probably the same. I guess. One thing that helps, is that Tae Kwon Do schools from the Shotokan lineage seem to keep very stiff, with the hips somewhat lined up, mostly. Master Mac makes me use more hip (in EVERYTHING!), so I am to assume TSD uses the forward motion of the hips in conjunction with the muscles in the ass, thighs, and lower back. Shorin-Ryu keeps it low, so it seems more flicky, using/requiring alot of quadracepts tone. I tried to mention Bruce Lees Tao Of Jeet Kun Do, but I couldn't figure out what to list and not to list as the important steps, but then again that would be defining the way, against the whole purpose/intent of the book probably. Master Wests guys doing demo's with him do a CRAZY deep stance and very thrusting front kick, sometimes I wonder if they are just overdoing the technique so it is shown with enthusiasm and intent for the crowd, or poking fun at striking arts deep stances. (Master West, Don't Take Offense To That Please!) So I partially agree with Rick , they are all pretty much the same ON FRONT SNAP KICK, and I partially agree with Ray in that the standing leg and physiology make the stylist. Since I often teach from an Anatomy and Physiology point of veiw (cause I like that stuff), I think its great to note the standing leg, but also what is happening internally when doing the kick, for the focus. Now, having said all that, these guys are just book writers, and being so, are still human. Who is to say their kicks, or whatever, haven't been molded through the years from other arts and fellow masters. Okay, I write too much. Rick and Ray, have fun, and play nice. Charlie Veuleman Shreveport, LA --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2006 04:31:23 -0800 (PST) From: Giancarlo Fusco Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Kicks To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Quote: "I don't think I understand what you are trying to get it with this. Are you saying that TKD does not look at "gripping the ground"? If that's the point you are making, I would have to disagree, at least from the Chung Do Kwan I was taught. Perhaps the more modern approach is different than what I was taught and practice. But in all of the systems I have been taught, stability of the base leg for a kick was an important factor in the execution of any kicking technique." I concur. My TKD first TKD instructor always told us to grip the floor with our toes when kicking. I just don't remember the reason why b/c it was over 10 years ago that I stopped training under him. Quote: "I think if you were to put 5 equally skilled individuals from 5 different arts all doing a front snap kick, to the mid section, from the rear leg - I really think it would be next to impossible to distinguish what system each was representing. Even if you had a list of their styles I think any that you correctly identify their style." Again, I totally agree. This is an important counter-point to the argument that one shouldn't train in more than one art simultaneously before a certain rank. In my opinion, this claim is made because of two faults: 1) the student's difficulty to keep the various froms, one-steps, self-defense, etc separate. When I was teaching TKD, I saw countless students struggle to do the proper Tae Geuk form for their belt level. They often started off with the wrong one or they got confused halfway through; and 2) the instructor's difficulty in not tailoring the art to the students. After 6+ years of studying TKD and HKD together, I decided to study American Kenpo. What I found changed my training (and teaching) methodollogy completely. For a TKD roundhouse kick, we were always taught to chamber our leg up and out while pivoting towards the target. This helped to generate maximum power by utilizing our hips. In Kenpo, we were taught to bring the knee up like a Front kick, then turn over and sbnap the foot out simultaneously. Not as strong, but maybe faster and certainly provides more protection to the all-important vitals. My point? They're both equally valid, with their own unique pros, cons and ideal situations for use. If an instructor in any art tells you that you're doing a kick "wrong" because it's not how their "style" does it, run. A "style" is dependent on an individual's physical capabilities, not on how the art has been taught for 30 years. G- --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments. --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2006 08:23:46 -0500 From: "Rick Clark" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Kicks To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Ray, >From: Ray [mailto:rterry@idiom.com] > >> I don't think I understand what you are trying to get it with this. Are you saying that TKD does not look at "gripping the ground"? > >Correct. That is not a part of Kukki-Taekwondo. Well - this explains a lot. > >I strongly suspect that it was part of "Korean Karate" but it is/was not part of Kukki-Taekwondo. Again, there are obvious pros and >cons, but it is pretty easy to see that 'gripping the ground' does not fit well with Olympic style sparring. It fits much better with the 'one >punch/kick, one kill' view that the Koreans seemed to disprove(?) with their move to full-contact sparring in the 60s. Having a stable base was definitely a part of what I was taught in TKD Chung Do Kwan. Stability was an important not only in kicks but in hand techniques as well. I don't remember if my instructor suggested this or if it was something that I came up with, but we would point out how difficult it would be to kick on ice and generate power in our techniques. > >Capener's 1995 Korea Journal paper goes into this a bit, as I recall. http://www.ekoreajournal.net/archive/detail.jsp?BACKFLAG=Y&VOLUMENO=35&B OOKNUM=4&PAPERNUM=6&SEASON=Winter&YEAR=1995 I found this article and saved it, to re-read, and probably print out to read again. For the new guys in the KMA I think this would be a very important article to read, and quite frankly for any of us old gits who have been at it a few decades. Well - I can say that I am firmly in the camp of the martial arts tradition of TKD and not in the sport or competitive aspect of TKD. One thing that I did notice and will need to look at again is the idea that sport TKD will kick at the same time and disregard blocks. In the old style I was taught we would do the same thing. We would try to punch or kick at the same time as our opponent, or even catch them a split second before they attacked. In karate its "sen no sen" attacking at the same time as your opponent. "sen sen no sen" is attacking just prior to your opponents attack. I was never taught the Korean terms but we were taught the concept. >Ray Terry --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2006 05:55:38 -0800 (PST) From: "E. Montgomery" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Rough Landing Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I have to agree with Mr. Clark. I study at a mixed martial arts school (our base is old school TKD) and the first thing our instructor teaches us in our first series of classes as a white belt is how to fall properly. By the way, as you may infer by the fact that I study at a mixed martial arts school, I also agree with Mr. Clark regarding cross training in styles that compliment each other - in fact, a number of forms we perform at upper belt ranks are taken from Japanese forms (Ba-sai for one). I am not going to refuse to learn a technique because it comes from another system - all knowledge is good, it is applying that knowledge appropriately that can be your biggest challenge. Ellen Montgomery --------------------------------- Yahoo! Travel Find great deals to the top 10 hottest destinations! --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Kicks - Holy Cow- This is a good discussion To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2006 06:40:10 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > C. Alexander Simpkins, "Chung Do Kwan: The Power Of Tae Kwon Do" > The front kick flows most naturally from the front stance. ... You don't see much in the way of a front stance ever used in Kukki-TKD. > Sihak Henry Cho, "Tae Kwon Do Secrets Of Korean Karate" Korean Karate. I like KK, but for better or worse it is not Kukki-Taekwondo. > Richard Chun "Moo Duk Kwan Tae Kwon Do Korean Art Of Self Defense Volume 1" > Front Kick Assume a front stance, ... Front stance again. > Duk Sung Son "Korean Karate The Art Of Tae Kwon Do" Korean Karate again. As Rick noted the diff between our two views is that he is speaking of TKD and Korean Karate of the mid-40s thru the mid-60s. I'm talking about TKD as taught in Korea since the mid to late-60s or early 70s thru today, aka Kukki-TKD. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Kicks To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2006 06:43:49 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > One thing that I did notice and will need to look at again is the idea > that sport TKD will kick at the same time and disregard blocks. In the > old style I was taught we would do the same thing. We would try to > punch or kick at the same time as our opponent, or even catch them a > split second before they attacked. In karate its "sen no sen" attacking > at the same time as your opponent. "sen sen no sen" is attacking just > prior to your opponents attack. I was never taught the Korean terms but > we were taught the concept. I was taught that this was done by looking directly into your opponents eyes. Many teach focusing on the upper chest area, but we were taught to focus on the eyes. After a bit of practice you can actually read when your opponent is about to execute an attacking technique. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2006 09:57:15 -0500 From: "Rick Clark" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Kicks To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Giancarlo, >From: Giancarlo Fusco [mailto:lupercus2000@yahoo.com] >Quote: "I think if you were to put 5 equally skilled individuals from 5 different arts all doing a front snap kick, >to the mid section, from the rear leg - I really think it would be next to impossible to >distinguish what system each was representing. Even if you had a list of their styles I think any that you correctly >identify their style." > >Again, I totally agree. This is an important counter-point to the argument that one shouldn't train in more than one art >simultaneously before a certain rank. In my opinion, this claim is made because of two faults: 1) the student's >difficulty to keep the various froms, one-steps, self-defense, etc separate. I agree this can be a difficult thing for white belts. But if you have had some training its not as hard, and its not as hard for adults as for children. >When I was teaching TKD, I saw countless students struggle to do the proper Tae Geuk form for their belt level. They often started off with the wrong >one or they got confused halfway through; and Sure, that is a problem no matter what system you are working with. It just takes a bit of time and practice to learn, not something that can't be learned. 2) the instructor's difficulty in not tailoring the art to the students. Ahhhhhh this is a problem with the instructor NOT the student or their ability to learn. This is a whole different can of worms :-) >After 6+ years of studying TKD and HKD together, I decided to study American Kenpo. What I found changed my training (and >teaching) methodollogy completely. For a TKD roundhouse kick, we were always taught to chamber our leg up and out while >pivoting towards the target. This helped to generate maximum power by utilizing our hips. In Kenpo, we were taught to bring >the knee up like a Front kick, then turn over and sbnap the foot out simultaneously. Not as strong, but maybe faster and >certainly provides more protection to the all-important vitals. This type of roundhouse was practiced in the old style TKD that I practiced. Heck we had a number of different ways to execute a roundhouse kick. BUT the one thing we did not do, and something I don't agree with - at least for the martial side of TKD is an instep kick. In sport applications there is a benefit but I am of the opinion that you will do in a moment of stress what you practice. I would prefer not to kick with the instep so that's something I don't practice. > > My point? They're both equally valid, with their own unique pros, cons and ideal situations for use. If an instructor in >any art tells you that you're doing a kick "wrong" because it's not how their "style" does it, run. A "style" is >dependent on an individual's physical capabilities, not on how the art has been taught for 30 years. I would suspect that you would find someone in every system that will do things a bit different and from one school to the other the students would probably say that "that is not how we do it in our system" even if it's the same system. Rick Clark www.ao-denkou-kai.org --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2006 10:06:23 -0500 From: "Rick Clark" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Kicks - Holy Cow- This is a good discussion To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Ray, >From: Ray [mailto:rterry@idiom.com] >> C. Alexander Simpkins, "Chung Do Kwan: The Power Of Tae Kwon Do" >> The front kick flows most naturally from the front stance. ... > >You don't see much in the way of a front stance ever used in Kukki-TKD. > >> Sihak Henry Cho, "Tae Kwon Do Secrets Of Korean Karate" > >Korean Karate. I like KK, but for better or worse it is not >Kukki-Taekwondo. > >> Richard Chun "Moo Duk Kwan Tae Kwon Do Korean Art Of Self >Defense Volume 1" >> Front Kick Assume a front stance, ... > >Front stance again. > >> Duk Sung Son "Korean Karate The Art Of Tae Kwon Do" > >Korean Karate again. Perhaps I am wrong, but I think a lot of the early books and information on TKD back in the 60's and 70's used Karate because people here (the USA) understood Karate, and had no idea of TKD. When I started Son Duk Son would tell me that TKD was NOT Karate but yet he used the name in a book. Perhaps it was the publishers decision, or that it was like I thought just something people understood. In the first issue of one of Henry Cho's books he did give credit to Japanese and Okinawan Karate but that section was deleted in latter issues of the book. > >As Rick noted the diff between our two views is that he is >speaking of TKD >and Korean Karate of the mid-40s thru the mid-60s. I'm talking about >TKD as taught in Korea since the mid to late-60s or early 70s thru today, >aka Kukki-TKD. Ah hummmm there are some of us out there that practice and teach the old style of TKD even today. Personally I don't want any part of the Kukki style of TKD. To be honest about it when I am out teaching seminars many times I have to emphasize that I am "old school TKD" and not Kukki TKD. While I can't speak for all of Korea when I was in Osan back in 69-70 the Chung Do Kwan I practiced was very similar to that I practiced in the US. The forms were not the Pyung-Ahn but sparring and 1 step were very similar. Rick Clark www.ao-denkou-kai.org --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Joseph Cheavens" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Kicks Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2006 09:11:58 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hmmm, maybe I'm just a dinosaur, then, because I was taught and continue to teach using the base leg add power to linear kicks (front, side, back) by pushing/extending with the base leg at the same time that you extend the kicking leg (kind of a Taoist Heaven/Earth/Man sinergy thing) and that good ballance with the base leg (i.e. "gripping the ground") is crucial for all standing kicks (as opposed to jumping kicks). Joe Cheavens -------------------------------------------------------------------- From:  Ray Reply-To:  the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To:  the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject:  Re: [The_Dojang] Kicks Date:  Mon, 13 Mar 2006 20:05:54 -0800 (PST) > > I don't think I understand what you are trying to get it with this.  Are > > you saying that TKD does not look at "gripping the ground"? > >Correct.  That is not a part of Kukki-Taekwondo. > >I strongly suspect that it was part of "Korean Karate" but it is/was not >part of Kukki-Taekwondo.  Again, there are obvious pros and cons, but it >is pretty easy to see that 'gripping the ground' does not fit well with >Olympic style sparring.  It fits much better with the 'one punch/kick, >one kill' view that the Koreans seemed to disprove(?) with their move to >full-contact sparring in the 60s. > >Capener's 1995 Korea Journal paper goes into this a bit, as I recall. > >Ray Terry >rterry@idiom.com >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2006 10:13:48 -0500 From: "Burdick, Dakin Robert" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Front Kicks & History Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Rick Clark wrote: I applaud your effort to do this, I would offer you a bit of unsolicited advice. Take what information Koreans put out as martial arts history with more than a grain of salt. My Two Cents: I agree with Rick in almost everything he says. One of the reasons I don't spend more time on martial arts history (which I love) is that it is incredibly nebulous. Martial arts history is usually not a high priority in anyone's life, including most martial artists, and it is very tough to pin down anything. Add to that the following difficulties: 1. Martial arts is intimately connected with the entertainment industry. For more on this, see: http://danno.appliedi.net/drupal/?q=node/75 2. It requires little or no formal education to open up a school (or a federation!). Form more on this, see: http://www.bullshido.net/forums/ > He >traslated the MYDBTJ. He changed the name to Soo Bahk Do, He >created the Yuk Ro Hyungs from the MYDBTJ, etc. Rick also wrote: >I have no idea what the Yuk Ro Hyung look like but I suspect they have a lot in common with the Pyung-ahn forms. I don't think so Rick. I seem to recall that they looked more like kung-fu, which is not surprising given that they are drawn from a book largely influenced by the Chinese, and since GM Hwang's original interest was Chinese kung-fu. I tried to find descriptions on the web, but couldn't. Anybody got a URL on these? Then Rick says: >This brings me to a question I have had for a long time. I have practiced Korean, Japanese, and Okinawan arts and I really don't see that much difference in the techniques. For example a front kick can be a thrust or a snap, the target area is limited by the human body, it can be performed off the front leg, back leg, jump, stepping back, or combinations of the aforementioned. To execute a front kick you bring your knee up and kick out with the ball of your foot, the tip of your toes, your heel, or flat of the foot. So - what makes a front kick different from Shotokan, TKD, SBD, Isshin-ryu or any other similar system?" My reply: The differences between physical techniques vanish pretty quickly, because if something works, other people start doing it. If we look at books by Nakayama and then the original Hwarang do set, we can see a difference. Other differences that Rick doesn't describe are that the thrust kick can be executed descending, ascending or linear. Also, the kick can be executed with the rear leg extending (as in a fencing lunge, which I learned from a Kyokushin buddy) or sinking (Taiji style application). Differences that persist are typically the result of the culture surrounding the technique. If we emphasize "one strike, one kill" (Japanese) approach then our front kick will be very powerful, and only thrown when there is a clear opportunity to hit, with more emphasis on hands. If we emphasize a continuous movement approach (Korean), we will use a lot of feints and mix the front kick with angled snap kicks (my federation calls them half-moon kicks and twist kicks -- I'm sure you have other names). I think Ray is talking about a more Japanese style when he talks about "being 'grounded'." Ray then says: Are you saying that TKD does not look at "gripping the ground"? If that's the point you are making, I would have to disagree, at least from the Chung Do Kwan I was taught. Perhaps the more modern approach is different than what I was taught and practice. My reply: I don't know if you are like some of the old school Chung Do Kwan guys I've played with, but some of those guys who trained with GM Son were VERY Japanese in their approach -- tensing up so much on each hit that they almost hopped as they did it. Rick: >But in all of the systems I have been taught, stability of the base leg for a kick was an important factor in the execution of any kicking technique. Me: Yep, very different from t'aekkyeon and modern WTF kicking (which seems to have been influenced by the t'aekkyeon style). It is much more fluid. Rick: >I think if you were to put 5 equally skilled individuals from 5 different arts all doing a front snap kick, to the mid section, from the rear leg - I really think it would be next to impossible to distinguish what system each was representing. Me: A front snap kick to the midsection from the rear leg already identifies your approach as a Japanese one, Rick. Or is it Okinawan? :) But putting that aside, if you looked at how the person got to that kick and what their follow-up was, you would certainly get a very good idea of their emphasis and perhaps even a clue to their lineage. Yours in the arts, Dakin Burdick dakinburdick@yahoo.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest