Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 17:26:21 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 13 #131 - 14 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,100 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Yuk Roh (Amed Hazel) 2. Master Dan regarding falls, kicks and self defense (Dan Scholten) 3. RE: Side kick - foot contact patch (Woodard Brian (ChP/TEF8)) 4. Side Kick (rwood) 5. Re: Kicks (Jae Stulock) 6. RE: Side kick - foot contact patch (michael tomlinson) 7. Looking for a good school in Cleveland (Live Oak Martial Arts) 8. Foot Positioning (Luther Veuleman) 9. UFC in WSJ (Ray Terry) 10. RE: Foot Positioning (Joseph Cheavens) 11. Soo Bahk Do form (Ray) 12. Re: Congrats (aburrese@aol.com) 13. Re: Yuk Roh (Ray) 14. Kicks and YUK RO Hyungs (Bruce Sims) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 00:33:42 -0500 From: "Amed Hazel" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Yuk Roh Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net however I don't believe the hyungs are in print, or video formats I have these forms in KWN Hwang Kee’s second book. Also I believe I have them on video performed by KJN HC Hwang. I would have to dig in the archive to check for the video. Amed -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.2.2/280 - Release Date: 3/13/2006 --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2006 22:57:54 -0900 From: Dan Scholten To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Master Dan regarding falls, kicks and self defense Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net FALLS: If you are over 30 and just starting out I would hope that your instructor is teaching you first how to condition your body for the rest of your life so that you can get in shape to get in shape which mean no injury if possible. The best possible mats should be used and also age specific which means softer thicker mats for young children and firmer mats for larger heavier students. Falling is the most important SD move that anyone can learn for their whole life. You are more likely to be seriously injured or even killed from a bad fall some day than an attacker unless you are fool looking for trouble. I have fallen on concrete, into rocks and off a fork lift from over 20 feet up and walked away. Using comfortable mats will help get you to the point that how you fall based on what happens will become reflex. So you don't have to hurt or have injury today for an accident or take down in the future. Trust me you will roll out, flip or slap out automatically not thinking of what you are going to hit because there is no time. What matters is you will do it right and save your self from a permanent injury or fatal fall. Every instructor should be training you with the thought of building you up not tearing you down. MA training should be like a fantasy stock market chart that slowly just keeps going up and never goes down. Unfortunately in western culture we want immediate gratification and some times instructors are either pressured to or do not have the education on how to train people who are out of shape. People live and work in linear worlds of strait lines which only develop the tendons and muscles to support that movement. They become injured as soon as they are moved to the side, so their training goes up and down rapid movements then injury then no training. I have had people walk in with hard bodies say they weight train do this or that and self destruct with surgery a week later so I work very hard to slow down anybody over 30 to insure they have proper conditioning and do only what technique is proper for their age. Low impact only for over 40!! Self defense has nothing to do with sport technique except that it gave you a foundation of endurance, calmness, control, concentration and strength from your youth that you can use in your old age. KICKS: At least in the areas I saw in the 60's and 70's no karate styles had kicks like TKD that's why they did not fare well in our tournaments. Later in the 80's everybody looks the same in order to compete in the same rule. So did TKD get kicks from Karate and change them to Modern TKD I have not found anything in writing or a traditional master willing to say that?? But I think Mr. Terry would have good info on that and an opinion. I would also like to find an explanation of the 8 Kwon's and their origin's and founders. My GM seems to lean towards some social differences almost similar to a cast or educational/economic differences such as this Kwon was founded by people that hired out as protection for the construction of railroads ect. It would be nice if this was written by an unbiased source but that may be hard to find. SELF DEFENSE CROSS TRAINING: First you need a good five years of foundation in one art to build your basic tools and you should stay in that style for your whole life. Along the way add Hapkido, Judo or Kyusho Jitsu to compliment what you are doing. Every instructor and every student at some points modifies based on your personal health, physiology, and what works for you. There is no point to doing a thing for the sake of tradition in self defense if it does not work for you and that is not changing the style it is common sense. You are not modifying the forms or traditions, just making sure you don't get a nice big hole in your stomach because you were too stupid to be effective. The real cross training that you should be doing from day one when you start Mr. 58 year old is conditioning, more stretching, breathing, low impact cardio vascular, diet and supplements, meditation. A really good work out plan of six days a week 3 days heavy or hard style work out with 3 days of soft style conditioning would make you feel 20 years younger. Buy the book Fit for Life and Fit For Life II, these are diet life style books based on Chi Gong and very helpful. I have almost freaked out over the number of black belts I have met 1st 2nd and 3rd Dan that do not have good Self Defense knowledge. They would not last 30 seconds on the street. They want to use sport technique to defend themselves. I want to teach them higher level close in fighting and cannot because they are not ready to apply wrist locks, joint locks, manipulation, pressure points ect. My GM said take them back to basics what we teach green belts and start from there and he was right. The point about Self Defense and Cross training is that you need to be with an instructor that has access to a master with over 30 years experience. Because in true MA tradition every thing is hidden even miss information so that unworthy or the two young cannot learn from watching forms or from the written page. Every 10 years you have earned the right to unlearn what you have learned some things are 180 degrees off from what you have done or been told and it is not meant for the public. Now the young guys will say crap and jump to this or that and that is why they don't get to learn and that is the basic law of what protects the older MA master against the young. Your advantage of being 58 is getting rewarded with knowledge the younger people will not get to learn as soon as you are able to mentally handle it and be trusted with it. We are all the sum total of what our master has learned, mine is 9th degree TKD, 5th degree Hapkido and 6th degree Olympic gold medalist in Judo. As I look through our training book in its 7 edition over 35 years I can't help but notice that in self defense we are well rounded with those benefits even though not ranked or certified specifically for Hapkido and Judo. Find a good master in one style and he will see to it you are healthy and can defend yourself. --__--__-- Message: 3 Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Side kick - foot contact patch Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 08:19:17 -0500 From: "Woodard Brian (ChP/TEF8)" To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I prefer the heel on the side kick. I use the blade on an outside crescent kick. FWIW Best Regards, Brian Woodard -----Original Message----- From: Rick Clark [mailto:rick.aodenkou@verizon.net] Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2006 6:20 PM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Side kick - foot contact patch Hi Tom, >From: tkdtom [mailto:tkdtom@tekennelly.gotdns.com] >I too have enjoyed this thread but would like to ask about the >part of the >foot that makes contact with the opponent during the execution >of a TKD side >kick. > >Having been exposed to multiple instructors I have heard from >some that the >heal is the correct contact point of the kick while others >claim the blade >of the foot is to be used. > >My preference is to use the heal or bottom of the foot with >emphasis on the >heal portion as the point of contact. > >Opinions? My preference is the heel. I am not a fan of the blade of the foot, as that makes you ankle bend, a position you are in when you sprain your ankle. However, there are many styles out there that use the blade. Rick Clark www.ao-denkou.kai.org _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "rwood" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 07:26:29 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Side Kick Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Heel of the foot is what I am taught and teaching. IHS, Rob He who ignores disciple comes to poverty and shame, but whoever heeds correction is honored. Proverbs 13:18 --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 07:02:59 -0800 (PST) From: Jae Stulock Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Kicks To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net All: I wish I could've "spoke" up earlier on this but I am just now getting to this discussion. I have trained in both the Okinawan form of Shorin-Ryu Karate and Korean Hapkido (mey han style). When I began the Hapkido study I had a strong background in Shorin Ryu Karate. My Hapkido instructor would chide me as "looking Japanese" while doing line drills with the other students. This would occur mainly while performing Dolrya Cha Ki (roundhouse) and Yup Cha Ki (side). I believe my roundhouse appeared different because of the concept of rooting that I developed in my Okinawan studies. The way it was explained to me is that rooting is not just gripping the ground but a union as a tree root finds its way through the earth. The rooting leg gains stability as a tree root would but also energy as a tree root would. I was to feel the energy coarse through my body into your opponent through the base leg, as well as gain reach and distance as a tree, as one would feel their Ki run from their dungdin in the Korean teaching. When throwing the roundhouse kick in the Shorin Ryu style the rooting leg didn't rotate nearly as much as it does in the Korean style. After practice I could feel the power in each as well as the tactical significance of each method (which is another discussion). The Yup Cha Ki differed between in the two styles with the positioning of the foot, which is readily distinguishable. In the Korean style the heel contact comes from the bottom flat area of the heel, quite wise since it is the area on which we walk. The Okinawan style teaches to not only strike with the blade of the foot but to point the toes back toward yourself as much as possible causing a contact point that is much smaller than the bottom of the heel. This is anatomically true and very risky because of the vulnerability, pointed out earlier in the thread, of having the ankle bent upon impact but provides a smaller point of impact. I have done breaks with this position and I can attest that the feel is a bit more powerful with the Okinawan style position (which would be in keeping with the one hit kill philosophy of their martial culture) than the Korean Style. My overall feeling is that the Korean style Yup Cha Ki, with the bottom of the heel, requires less training and is much easier to pull off in real time thus more effective. That being said, I fluctuate arbitrarily in the manner that throw the kick. Now the front kick seems to be more difficult to decern the differences. Perhaps teh difference is in the position of the foot as well. I have seen a Shorin Ryu stylist kick with toes pointed. This was after rigorous training beating the front of the big toe with a stick to deaden the nerves and stiffen the posture. I don't know if that is pervasive to the Okinawan styles or a personal spin this stylist put on his training. ~Jae --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Side kick - foot contact patch Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 15:06:55 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Personally I use both... when I am using a quick jab type side kick...especially the lead leg type I use the blade of the foot...it seems to be quicker to me then rolling over your hip that extra little bit for the heel impact...I think they are just two variations that are like two different wrenchs in your tool box...sometime a half inch wrench is needed and sometimes you need a three eigths to get the job done.... Michael Tomlinson --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 11:07:43 -0500 From: "Live Oak Martial Arts" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Looking for a good school in Cleveland Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello everybody, I have a couple of students (a father and 7 y.o. son) that are moving to the East side of Cleveland, Ohio at the end of the month and are looking to continue their training. They've been doing TKD with us at Live Oak Martial Arts in Athens, GA, where we practice the Chon-Ji forms and Olympic style sparring. It'd be easier for them (Green and Blue belts, respectively) to slide into the same style, but I believe that a good teacher is more important than doggedly sticking with a style. Anybody know of a good Dojang up there? Also, a "tiny tots" program would be a plus, as they have another future white belt coming up (she's pushing 3) Your's in Training, Jason Hughes -- Live Oak Martial Arts Traditional and Olympic Tae Kwon Do liveoakmartialarts.com 706.548.0077 Studio AB Chase Street Warehouses, #4 160 Tracy St. Athens GA Mailing address: PO 67 Athens GA 30603 --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 09:37:57 -0800 (PST) From: Luther Veuleman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Foot Positioning Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Ya'll, For the side kick: Some groups do Blade of foot, some will teach heel. I say make the blade, and aim with the Heel. This will add alot of tensioning to your foot. More protective tensioning of the foot is best when you are slamming it against stuff. Plus, aiming with the heel aligns better with ALL of your other bones in your body, thus supporting it as a battering ram of sorts. Think: Bad Guy - - Heel - - Lower Leg Bones - - Upper Leg - - Hips - - Other Upper Leg - - Other Lower Leg Bones - - Heel (or Ball if your pivot alot-I've seen it before) - - Ground Otherwise it would be: Bad Guy - - Blade of Foot - - Tension Created By Hyperextention - - Odd Angle of Stability Created - - Heel -- Lower Leg Bones - - etc etc etc Fascinated by the human body, Charlie Veuleman --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 10:44:34 -0800 From: "Ray Terry" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net, eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] UFC in WSJ Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net PAGE ONE Wall Street Journal On the Vegas Strip, A Fast, Brutal Sport Deals Blow to Boxing 'Ultimate Fighting' Matches Score Fans, Ads, Bettors; Luring the 'Maxim' Crowd By PETER SANDERS March 15, 2006 LAS VEGAS -- With its history of glitzy championship bouts, this city's famous gambling Strip is boxing's home turf. But when longtime fans Brian Schulz and Derek Ellis drove five-plus hours here from northern Utah one recent Saturday night, the hottest fight in town wasn't staged in a boxing ring. It was inside "the Octagon." The Octagon is the eight-sided, fenced-in battleground used by the Ultimate Fighting Championship, the martial arts-inspired circuit that is fast gaining popularity nationwide. Here in Las Vegas, the sport -- known for its chokeholds, elbow punches and acrobatic takedowns -- is making a run at boxing's supremacy. For decades, Las Vegas was the biggest venue for boxing's prizefights, featuring ring stars like Evander Holyfield, Mike Tyson, Riddick Bowe and Lennox Lewis. But with few new marquee names and younger spectators craving harder, faster action, heavyweight boxing's golden era has faded. The Ultimate Fighting Championship is muscling in with corporate sponsors, pay-per-view specials and star-flecked audiences. On Feb. 4, boldface names like Paris Hilton, Cindy Crawford and Charles Barkley showed up for a championship Ultimate Fighting event at the MGM Grand Hotel & Casino. Dana White, the UFC's 36-year-old president, says the sport fills a void left by boxing's failure to adapt to fans' changing tastes. "The UFC is the most exciting combat sport in the world because there are so many ways to win and so many ways to lose," he says. "Boxing is your father's sport." On March 4, Mr. Schulz, 41, was among more than 10,000 fans who paid between $50 and $450 to watch the action at the Mandalay Bay Events Center, also in Las Vegas. He likes to describe Ultimate Fighting as "a purer sport than boxing." For one thing, it's more violent. Ultimate Fighting is a so-called mixed martial-arts event that combines karate, judo, jiu-jitsu, boxing, wrestling and old-fashioned street fighting. The result is a sport that features many more ways for combatants -- wearing thin, fingerless gloves, not the padded boxing kind -- to effect maximum carnage. The object is simple: overwhelm the opponent by whatever means necessary, save a few banned tactics like biting. If a fight doesn't lead to a knockout or surrender, then a panel of three judges uses a scoring system to determine the winner. The early March card at Mandalay showcased Ultimate Fighting's fast pace and brutality. In one match, Jason Lambert and Rob MacDonald sparred like boxers for a minute or so. Then, Mr. Lambert drove his head into Mr. MacDonald's midsection and piled him into the mat. Squatting on his face, Mr. Lambert twisted and wrenched his opponent's left arm backward in an unnatural and painful trajectory. Grimacing in pain, Mr. MacDonald "tapped out," banging his free hand on the mat in the UFC's universal "mercy" signal. In a later match, Mike Swick was quickly tossed to the mat by opponent Steve Vigneault. But Mr. Swick instantly turned the tables with a move called "The Guillotine Choke." Cradling his opponent's head in his elbow, between bulging biceps and his forearm, Mr. Swick squeezed hard and temporarily cut off Mr. Vigneault's ability to breathe. Boxing promoter Gary Shaw attributes Ultimate Fighting's rise to a generation inured to violence and mayhem -- the sort commonly depicted in movies and videogames. "The mixture of wrestling with boxing and the fact that it's not staged goes to the bloodthirsty segment of the population," he says. The fights are bona fide competitions, part of the official Ultimate Fighting Championship circuit. The UFC is the leading force among a growing number of slickly packaged versions of a sport that has evolved from unregulated, no-holds-barred free-for-alls staged in bars and Indian casinos a few years ago. Those brawls attracted the attention of regulators and other critics as long as a decade ago. Sen. John McCain described the sport as a "human cockfight" and sought to ban the competitions. Rather than collapse under government scrutiny, the sport's proponents decided to adopt formal rules and regulations. Over the past several years, they worked with states like New Jersey and Nevada to ensure that officials would authorize them to stage fights. Today, the UFC has weight classes, ringside doctors and a scoring system that is similar to boxing. It has also reined in some violence, outlawing such crowd-pleasing tactics as eye-gouging, head-butting and biting. Mixed martial-arts events are now sanctioned by more than 20 state athletic commissions. The most recent state to sign on was California, where in September Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger signed legislation allowing the bouts. The UFC has shrewdly built a following with flashy marketing that appeals to the coveted 18- to 34-year-old male sought by everyone from Maxim magazine to beer makers. A weekly reality show on Viacom Inc.'s Spike TV features contestants vying for a spot on the UFC circuit; it draws a weekly average of two million viewers. At the events, ear-splitting rock music plays over endless highlight reels between fights, and big-screen ads pitch BMW cars and coming movie thrillers like "The Hills Have Eyes." Also prominently featured are ads for the league's DVD titles like "Ultimate Beatdowns Vol. 1." In Nevada, casino bettors can now make wagers on the fights. In Las Vegas and some other cities, the audience for Ultimate Fighting matches can now rival or surpass big boxing matches. For the Super Bowl weekend matchup between Randy Couture and Chuck Liddell -- UFC stars capable of earning $1 million or more per year -- about 10,300 people packed the MGM Grand Garden Arena. Tickets ranged from $50 to $750, but scalpers commanded well above face value. Most fans were in their seat for the entire card, not just the marquee matchup. An image of spectator Paris Hilton, flashed on the big screen, drew lusty boos from the raucous crowd. The event took in about $3.4 million. A few weeks later, a big junior middleweight boxing match was held at Mandalay Bay between "Sugar" Shane Mosely and Fernando Vargas, two of the sport's few remaining brand-name fighters. Though the venue seats nearly 11,000, only about 8,500 fans showed up to watch the bout. The fight took in about $3.5 million. A spokesman for Mandalay Bay's owner, MGM Mirage, declined to comment on why the venue did not sell out. Although big names in boxing acknowledge the ring's flagging appeal, they don't necessarily blame the UFC. Don King, the boxing promoter, thinks an aging demographic, the loss of recognizable names in the heavyweight classes and a disappearance from network television have all crippled the sport. "Since network television left boxing, people can't identify with the fighters," Mr. King says. "If boxing were a stock, I'd sell it short," says Bert Randolph Sugar, a longtime boxing writer who's enshrined in the sport's hall of fame. Even so, Mr. Sugar dismisses Ultimate Fighting as little more than "bar fights without the beer bottles." --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Joseph Cheavens" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Foot Positioning Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 12:52:20 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net What he said, plus the observation that if you turn your foot down and toes back to form the blade, this will help prevent spraining your ankle if you miss with the heel and strike with the blade. -------------------------------------------------------------------- From:  Luther Veuleman Reply-To:  the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To:  the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject:  [The_Dojang] Foot Positioning Date:  Wed, 15 Mar 2006 09:37:57 -0800 (PST) >Dear Ya'll, > >   For the side kick: > >   Some groups do Blade of foot, some will teach heel.  I say make the blade, and aim with the Heel.  This will add alot of tensioning to your foot.  More protective tensioning of the foot is best when you are slamming it against stuff.  Plus, aiming with the heel aligns better with ALL of your other bones in your body, thus supporting it as a battering ram of sorts. > >     Think: Bad Guy - - Heel - - Lower Leg Bones - - Upper Leg - - Hips - - Other Upper Leg - - Other Lower Leg Bones - - Heel (or Ball if your pivot alot-I've seen it before) - - Ground > >   Otherwise it would be:  Bad Guy - - Blade of Foot - - Tension Created By Hyperextention - - Odd Angle of Stability Created - - Heel -- Lower Leg Bones - - etc etc etc > > >   Fascinated by the human body, > >   Charlie Veuleman >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 11 From: Ray To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 11:56:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] Soo Bahk Do form Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Soo Bahk Do bong form... http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2040717655889678266&q=soo+bahk+do Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 15:00:00 -0500 From: aburrese@aol.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Congrats Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >>Way to go Alain. My sincere congratulations on a job well done. I >>highly recommend his book as well. >>Rudy Thank you very much! Coming from someone with your experience, that means a lot. We will start filming the first of the LOCK ON joint lock DVDs this Sunday. I hope those too will be well recieved and help people improve that area of their training. Alain www.burrese.com For Your Safety - For Your Success --__--__-- Message: 13 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Yuk Roh To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 13:35:13 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > I have these forms in KWN Hwang Kee’s second book. Also I believe I have > them on video performed by KJN HC Hwang. I would have to dig in the archive > to check for the video. Yuk Ro Cho Dan, E Dan and Sam Dan are all readily available in Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan Volume 2, Hwang Kee, 1992. ISBN 0-9631358-0-5. Yuk Ro cho dan was origianlly named Du Mun, aka Great Gate. E dan was Joong Jol, meaning cutting the middle. And sam dan was Po Wol, meaning embrace the moon. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 14 Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 17:12:19 -0800 (PST) From: Bruce Sims To: Ray Terry Subject: [The_Dojang] Kicks and YUK RO Hyungs Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I don't mind considering the nature of kicks but it certainly would be easier if there were a place to examine the hyung that Hwang Kee put together based on his study of the MYTBTJ. I keep hearing people refer to these hyung but have yet to find them published anywhere. Comments? Best Wishes, Bruce __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest