Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2006 03:01:15 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 13 #143 - 12 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,100 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Knuckle push ups (Rudy Timmerman) 2. Science and Martial Arts (Bruce Sims) 3. knuckle pushups (freddie bishop) 4. Gracie and Hapkido (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 5. Re: knuckle pushups (Ray) 6. Re: knuckle pushups (Joseph Cheavens) 7. Re: knuckle pushups (Ray) 8. Re: Gracie and Hapkido (Ray) 9. Re: knuckle pushups (jakskru) 10. Re: knuckle pushups (Nathan Miller) 11. welcome Lilia (Manuel Maldonado) 12. Re: knuckle pushups (Ray) --__--__-- Message: 1 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Rudy Timmerman Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 09:48:32 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Knuckle push ups Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Lila writes: > p.s. Should any of you run across any research on the benefits/ > hazards of > knuckle pushups, please let me know. What literature I can find > appears to > be thin to nonexistent on the medical side, and based mostly on > "that's how > we've always done it" on the martial arts side. Hello Lila... welcome to DD: FWIW. I do not allow children under age 18 to do knuckle push ups. Common sense tells me that there is no NEED to do this, and the impact to the end of the long bones is not consistent with taking care of the growing area of the bones. As an Instructor, I have a responsibility to take care of my student's health, and anything that appears to me to pose a threat to well being (researched or not) I do not allow. There are things we were taught in some of the olds schools that just are not good. For example: one of our area Instructors ran over the stomachs of his students (a practice they did in my old school as well) ruptured a kid's spleen. Common sense told me to stop that nonsense long before, but it seems not everyone could see that some old training methods are not for kids. Rudy --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 06:51:54 -0800 (PST) From: Bruce Sims To: Ray Terry Subject: [The_Dojang] Science and Martial Arts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "....I will say that using basic kinematics (such as Newton's laws of motion) is a good way to conceptually understand some of the ways we cause effective movement in the martial arts. But you can't take the equations too literally, because the real life gets very complicated very quickly, and simple applications of basic equations don't mirror reality well enough. In this case, basic physics is best used as a metaphor. Scary, huh?...." Thanks, Thomas: I have always admired the efforts of folks who would like to introduce a bit more reasonable and informed approach to MA. Your post, however, was a well-made "reality sandwich" that did a nice job of reminding us that science, unlike art, works within some pretty tight guidelines. Now I am left to wonder if there are scientists who have studied the Physics behind various activities such as Track-&-Field and Football (American). Certainly someone must have compiled various equations for expressing a well-thrown forward pass, or the optimal effort for negotiating hurdles at speed, yes? Thoughts? Best Wishes, Bruce __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 06:51:32 -0800 (PST) From: freddie bishop To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] knuckle pushups Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I have done these in judo and karate, I feel for the purpose of developing a stronger grip. I have asked several PT's and most say knuckle pushups are not very efficient grip developers. They recommended exercises that mimic the action such as gripping. They also recommended weighted wrist flexion and extentions in addition to using towel twisting and using hand grippers which are sold at Walmart. There is a PT in my karate class who is a black belt and I have the idea that he does the knuckle pushups just because the instructor says to do them. Fred __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: "the_dojang" Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 08:54:07 -0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] Gracie and Hapkido Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. T. Gordon Thanks for the link to the article with Royce Gracie. It was interesting. I have been a fan of the Gracies ever since the UFC began. I study Small Circle Jujitsu, but woud like to attend some BBJ seminars, but only from lagitamate instructors. I will be in Cali. this August for the US Soo Bahk Do Nationals. I would like to visit the Gracie school. JC Does anyone here have a clear understanding of the differences between the Gracie Jujitsu, and the Small Circle of Prf. Wally Jay. I know the History of both, and have been training in Small Circle since 1992 so I feel comfortable with the mechanics of Small Circle, but have never training with any ligitamate Brzilian Jujitsu instructors/Students. The biggest difference I can see is the two way action of Small Circle, but with know first hand knowledge of the other system it is difficult to compare. JCGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] knuckle pushups To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 07:26:43 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > I have done these in judo and karate, I feel for the > purpose of developing a stronger grip. I have asked > several PT's and most say knuckle pushups are not very > efficient grip developers. I've never thought of them of doing much for grip development. ??? They are meant to toughen the knuckles of the fore and middle finger, i.e. the punching kuckles. Also helps reinforce making a proper fist; wrist straight, etc. Do them on rough concrete and they work fairly well. Doing them on a mat or carpet defeats the purpose. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Joseph Cheavens" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] knuckle pushups Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 10:42:33 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I don't think it completely defeats the purpose if you do them on a mat or carpet, as it will still help reinforce making a proper fist and allignment of the wrist and forearm. Just as an aside, one of the dojangs I trained at had paint on the carpet to mark the ring dimensions and the GM would have us do our knuckle pushups with our knuckles on the paint, which had the consistancy of 60 grit sandpaper. -------------------------------------------------------------------- From:  Ray Reply-To:  the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To:  the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject:  Re: [The_Dojang] knuckle pushups Date:  Fri, 24 Mar 2006 07:26:43 -0800 (PST) > >  I have done these in judo and karate, I feel for the > > purpose of developing a stronger grip. I have asked > > several PT's and most say knuckle pushups are not very > > efficient grip developers. > >I've never thought of them of doing much for grip development. ???  They >are meant to toughen the knuckles of the fore and middle finger, i.e. >the punching kuckles.  Also helps reinforce making a proper fist; wrist >straight, etc. > >Do them on rough concrete and they work fairly well.  Doing them on >a mat or carpet defeats the purpose. > >Ray Terry >rterry@idiom.com >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] knuckle pushups To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 09:27:13 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > I don't think it completely defeats the purpose if you do them on a mat > or carpet, as it will still help reinforce making a proper fist and > allignment of the wrist and forearm. True, it just won't do much to condition your kuckles. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Gracie and Hapkido To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 09:33:55 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > instructors. I will be in Cali. this August for the US Soo Bahk Do Nationals. > I would like to visit the Gracie school. You might also, or instead of, check out the Machados. Same art, but they are more accessible and charge less. That is who MDKer Chuck Norris trained with. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "jakskru" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] knuckle pushups Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 18:29:00 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net that all depends on the type of mat--doing them on a vinyl mat is pretty much the same as hitting a heavy bag without wraps...especially if you roll on the fist as you do them. heck, even some carpets cam have the same effect. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray" To: Sent: Friday, March 24, 2006 12:27 PM Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] knuckle pushups > > I don't think it completely defeats the purpose if you do them on a mat > > or carpet, as it will still help reinforce making a proper fist and > > allignment of the wrist and forearm. > > True, it just won't do much to condition your kuckles. > > Ray Terry > rterry@idiom.com > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 18:37:09 -0500 From: "Nathan Miller" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] knuckle pushups Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Fingertip pushups are better for grip development. They help to build forearm strength. Used to have to do 100 of them before wrestling practice in high school. My coach had enormous forearms. Perfect for headlocks, unfortunately. :( Nathan On 3/24/06, freddie bishop wrote: > > I have done these in judo and karate, I feel for the > purpose of developing a stronger grip. I have asked > several PT's and most say knuckle pushups are not very > efficient grip developers. They recommended exercises > that mimic the action such as gripping. They also > recommended weighted wrist flexion and extentions in > addition to using towel twisting and using hand > grippers which are sold at Walmart. > There is a PT in my karate class who is a black belt > and I have the idea that he does the knuckle pushups > just because the instructor says to do them. > > Fred > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "Manuel Maldonado" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 15:55:32 -0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] welcome Lilia Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Im Master Manuel Maldonado 6th Degree Black Belt. I live in South Carolina. After a small assignment in California with the US ARMY. Im glad to be home. --__--__-- Message: 12 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] knuckle pushups To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 16:42:21 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > that all depends on the type of mat--doing them on a vinyl mat is pretty > much the same as hitting a heavy bag without wraps...especially if you roll > on the fist as you do them. heck, even some carpets cam have the same > effect. Only if that heavy bag is filled with concrete. Do them on a mat, any mat, or carpet and then try on rough concrete. Big difference. Reminds me of a story... :) A friend and I were waiting for a seminar to begin, it was being held in a muay thai school. In a MT school it is common to have a number of the large (6 ft long) heavy bags (banana bags) lined up across one end of the gym. They are like a pillow on one end of the line and progress to the concrete filled bag on the other end. The idea is to start on the soft end as a beginnner and then progress up the line to a harder and harder bag. As we waited for the seminar to start my friend was feeling the bag on the soft end and then wandered slowly down the line to the hard end. Upon arriving to the concrete bag he decided it was time to warm up a bit with a few kicks on the bag. As I watched from across the gym he hauled off and kicked the concrete bag with all his heart... and then tried to act as if he didn't just about break his leg. He limped around the rest of that entire week... Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest