Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 14:24:22 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 13 #148 - 11 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,100 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. RE: video clip: gun disarms (Joseph Cheavens) 2. Kneeling Bow (Wilson, Byron) 3. Gun Disarms (Gordon) 4. NKMAA Rochester, MN Seminar (Kevin Janisse) 5. RE: Questions (Joseph Cheavens) 6. Grip Training (Stovall, Craig) 7. RE: Questions (J R Hilland) 8. Knuckle and Finger Pushups (Dunn, Danny J GARRISON) 9. Re: RE: Questions (Ray) 10. Re: Kneeling Bow (Jye nigma) 11. Re: Kneeling Bow (Joseph Cheavens) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Joseph Cheavens" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] video clip: gun disarms Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 23:16:01 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In terms of techinique or the whole theoretical idea that multiple attakckers with guns are going to come within arms reach of you? If the latter, then I think the point of the demo is to illustrate the variety of unarmed defenses that are possible (although some seemed a little far fetched) against handguns rather than some theoreticall fight against the Crips or Bloods. Many of the techniques look valid, but they are all premised on the guy with the gun getting within arms reach. Anyopne withi half a brain isn't going to do that if they have a gun. After all, the whole point in having a gun is being able to kill someonw from beyond arms (or hand weilded weapons) reach. A friend of mine who is a cop told me of a drill they did in basic training. The trainee hods a gun and lets the training officer within arms reach. The training offiicer dissarmed every trainee without a training round fired. The lesson was that if you let a perp within grabbing range of your gun that chances are they can and will disarm you and shoot you with your own gun. Most cops that die in the line of duty die in car accidents, the majority of those that die by gunfire die by their own gun. In most cases, if someone sticks a gun at you and asks for your wallet and purse, by all means give it up, However, if someone is dumb enough to put a gun in your face within arms reach and you fear that he/she may use it rather than taking your money and waliking away, and you have trained to dissarm an armed opponent, you are better off taking the fight to him/her than depending on the mercies of a criminal who is willing to use a weapon in commission of a crime and who is bold enough to get within arms reach of you. This is a lot of "ifs", but these are the types of "if's that we need to keep in mind. Personally, I feel that if someone is going to come within arms reach of me and point a gun at my face that there is a high probabiltiy that they are going to use it regardless of what I do to molify them, so I might as well take my chances with disamring them. Joe Cheavens >From: Jye nigma >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net, itf-taekwondo@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [The_Dojang] video clip: gun disarms >Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2006 15:12:56 -0800 (PST) > >this is terrible in my opinion: >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpqG0wrtC9w&search=black%20belt > >--------------------------------- >New Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC for low, >low rates. >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 08:44:52 -0500 From: "Wilson, Byron" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Kneeling Bow Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net We have a tradition of using the kneeling bow when we receive a dan rank. However, my Christian beliefs do not favor a kneeling bow to any man. I was allowed to use a traditional waist bow. Any body else have those reservations regarding a kneeling bow? I know it shows the utmost in respect but, shouldn't the "My utmost [be reserved] for the Highest? Byron C. Wilson TKD Student --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Gordon" To: Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 09:31:46 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Gun Disarms Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In our school, we teach that distance of the weapon from the intended victim usually indicates the final intent. In a single perpetrator money crime, like convenience store hold up, car jacking or street mugging, we teach that the crime is usually not personal. The attacker usually stays at greater than arms length and only wants money/valuables and escape. Staying at arms length or farther usually indicates the attacker wants to control the situation/intended victim, get what they want, and flee. Here we teach compliance. When the weapon is close or pressed against the body of the victim, the final intent is usually fatal. This takes the crime to a personal level. If the attacker is willing to get that close with the weapon, they intend to use it. They intend to shoot you. They usually want to punish the intended victim or experience the terror from them. This is a crime of passion and we teach to engage the attacker in conversation, ask a question, and use the appropriate disarm at the moment of introspection, when distraction is highest, or at the best opportunity. Of course, we preface all weapon disarm classes with the redundant mantra of "awareness of your surroundings". Gordon Okerstrom --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Kevin Janisse" To: Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 08:18:32 -0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] NKMAA Rochester, MN Seminar Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello all, This weekend GM Timmerman and I will be in Rochester, MN at Master Fred Gommels school. http://www.mafci.com/schools/rochester/directions.shtml This weekend seems to be a very busy weekend for seminars. I wish the best for those hosting and teaching this weekend. "Train hard, Be well" Sincerely, Kevin Janisse NKMAA --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Joseph Cheavens" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Questions Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 10:21:39 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net That's how we bowed in and bowed out at the end of every class at my first dojang, including facing a portrait of our sabumnim's sabumnim and thanking him at the end of class.  That's also how we bowed in and out in the Aikido dojo I trained at in Shingu, Japan, too, including facing the Ueshiba shrine at the head of the class and thanking the Founder.  Since almost all KMA etiquette is borrowed from the Japanese/Okinawan arts, wouldn't it make sense that this bow was borrowed as well?  According to Eric Madis (The Evolution of Taekwondo from Japanese Karate, 2003), it was Yabu Kentsu (1866-1937) who first formalized dojo etiquette for Karate.  That said, my take is that bowing from the kneeling position is based on Confucian court ritual, so would be something that Korea, Japan and Okinawa shared via importation of court ritual from China, so would already have been familiar to most Koreans prior to the Colonial Period, so being part of dojang etiquette would not have seemed alien to the Korean founders of the original kwans or their students. Joe Cheavens -------------------------------------------------------------------- From:  "J R Hilland" Reply-To:  the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To:   Subject:  [The_Dojang] Questions Date:  Tue, 28 Mar 2006 10:40:00 -0600 >Dana: In hapkido, it is common to start and end class by bowing from >kneeling. I have always done it that way as did my first hapkido teacher >many decades ago. This method was also done when we visited the Daehan >Kidowhe in Seoul. In hapkido, we always bow to our training partner before >practicing a technique, if the technique will be practiced on the ground, >then so is the bow. Additionally, Dr. Kimm led us through bowing while >kneeling at the grave of Choi Young Sul, but in the Buddhist manner of >bowing with the palms together standing, then kneeling. I have also >practiced this variation while visiting Son (Korean Zen) temples, as is the >custom. Bowing while kneeling is very common in hapkido. Although I have >never seen it done in the KMA outside of the hapkido, ki circle of arts. >Jere R. Hilland >www.HapkidoSelfDefense.com >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 10:24:58 -0600 From: "Stovall, Craig" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Grip Training Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Love the ideas on grip training. For crushing grip, I like the Captains of Crush grippers. They are fairly expensive at $20 a piece. But, they will last a lifetime if you take care of them, and they provide a good gauge of where you are in terms of grip strength. For pinch grip, I like to do plate pinches. Grab two standard Olympic style weights and place them together with the smooth sides facing out. Now pinch the plates together between your thumb and fingers. Lift the plates by squeezing them together. Do static holds for strength and endurance. You can also curl the plates (very tough), pass them from hand to hand, pass them around the back, etc. I also like hex dumbbell lifting. Get a hex dumbbell and stand it up on its end. Now, pick up the dumbbell by claw gripping the hex end that's up in the air. Picking up a 30 is good, a 40 is pretty studly, and whether you can do 50's or above depends on strength and the size of your hand (for most men). I don't do much of this, but the old timers and modern grip freaks swear by thick bar work (thick barbells and thick handled dumbbells). Most would tell you that if they could do nothing else for grip they would do thick bar work. It's just a good overall hand developer. Thick bar deadlifts and clean and presses with a 2.5 inch bar will make an animal out of you. For wrist strength, nothing beats lever work (hammers, dumbbells, etc). Sand bags are also a good wrist and grip developer. You can do a million things with a good heavy sandbag, and in many ways it's superior to weightlifting because of the "odd object" aspect of it. The fact that you have to do most of the lifting by grabbing the loose fabric of the bag means that you'll develop a monster grip and solid wrist/forearm development. --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "J R Hilland" To: Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 11:16:02 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Questions Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <<>> In daitoryu as in Buddhism, it is done on the knees. Therefore, it can be safe to assume that Choi must have at least done it at some point. It is done at the Kidowhe and the Daehan Kidowhe goes back to Choi. I have also seen it done by Choi's 8th student (pre-Ji days) if my memory still works. It has been around in hapkido for a while, maybe not on the sinmoo side of things. Jere R. Hilland www.rrhapkido.com --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 11:09:53 -0600 From: "Dunn, Danny J GARRISON" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Knuckle and Finger Pushups Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Bishop, I have seen several very experienced martial artists give you reasons for knuckle and finger pushups, and they are correct in my opinion and experience as well. By the way, mental control is a distant secondary reason for knuckle pushups to thickening and toughening the skin on your striking knuckles, and increasing the range of motion in pushups which develops chest, back and upper arms. I will go on to tell you that grip strength comes from forearm muscles. However, if you take a look at someone's hands that uses hand strength in their occupation, you will notice that their fingers will be bigger than average. That is because regular stress tends to increase the size of ligaments and tendons and probably bone density. All these are important in protecting yourself from injury if you develop and use a strong grip. This is the same reason some people use knifehand or back of hand pushups to strengthen the ligaments in the wrist. Physical therapists are usually not interested in dramatically strengthening finger joints, just in grip. Big difference in my opinion. I also suspect most of us don't really care what you think. Just trying to help by giving opinions based on much more experience than yours. Danny Dunn <<<<<<< After talking to several physical therapists about grip development and finger strength, and finding out from them, what they do to rehab people with injuries to the hand, I have decided there is only minimal benefit to doing knuckle pushups. Wrist strength has more to do with the working muscles around the wrist and forearm and are getting more benefit from dynamic resistance exercise (wrist curls) than with isometric exercise (knuckle pushups). That's what I do to for strengthening wrists for punching. As far as the pain element in knuckle pushups on hard abrasive surfaces, I think there are better ways of developing a "mind over matter" skill, like sparring multiple, consecutive partners (one after another) until exhaustion. Being able to fight after the energy reserves have already gone is what the whole point of developing a mind over matter skill is for, IMO. I think most people continue to mindlessly perform knuckle pushups out of ignorance of what really does work. You develop skills by doing the skill. Fred>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] RE: Questions To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 10:28:39 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > << Choi did not either.>>> > > In daitoryu as in Buddhism, it is done on the knees. Therefore, it can be > safe to assume that Choi must have at least done it at some point. It is > done at the Kidowhe and the Daehan Kidowhe goes back to Choi. I have also > seen it done by Choi's 8th student (pre-Ji days) if my memory still works. > It has been around in hapkido for a while, maybe not on the sinmoo side of > things. Could very well be. I just checked a video of a Hapkido class in Taegu City under Gm Jung Moo-kwun (supposedly Choi's 10th student). Gm Ji is Choi's 14th student. They used the standard salute and standing bow in Jung's Taegu City dojang. This tape does show the kneeling bow being used at the graveside of Choi, which makes sense. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 11:17:26 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Kneeling Bow To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Well I understand where you're coming from. I think the thing to do is to research bowing in asian cultures to see what they consider it to mean. Then compare that to what the Bible teaches... The Bible uses bowing as an action of worship. So then we look deeper to see that worshipping can also be done by making something #1 in your life (above God) so to me, it's not so much the action as the intention behind the action. just my 2 cents. Jye "Wilson, Byron" wrote: We have a tradition of using the kneeling bow when we receive a dan rank. However, my Christian beliefs do not favor a kneeling bow to any man. I was allowed to use a traditional waist bow. Any body else have those reservations regarding a kneeling bow? I know it shows the utmost in respect but, shouldn't the "My utmost [be reserved] for the Highest? Byron C. Wilson TKD Student _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --------------------------------- New Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC for low, low rates. --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "Joseph Cheavens" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Kneeling Bow Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 15:53:21 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Good points with regards to intention. On the flip side, just going to church and going through the motions of prayer are not necessarily an act of worship unless your heart is in it. Joe   ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From:  Jye nigma Reply-To:  the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To:  the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject:  Re: [The_Dojang] Kneeling Bow Date:  Wed, 29 Mar 2006 11:17:26 -0800 (PST) >Well I understand where you're coming from. I think the thing to do is to research bowing in asian cultures to see what they consider it to mean. Then compare that to what the Bible teaches... The Bible uses bowing as an action of worship. So then we look deeper to see that worshipping can also be done by making something #1 in your life (above God) so to me, it's not so much the action as the intention behind the action. just my 2 cents. > >   Jye > > >"Wilson, Byron" wrote: >   We have a tradition of using the kneeling bow when we receive a dan >rank. However, my Christian beliefs do not favor a kneeling bow to any >man. I was allowed to use a traditional waist bow. Any body else have >those reservations regarding a kneeling bow? I know it shows the utmost >in respect but, shouldn't the "My utmost [be reserved] for the Highest? > >Byron C. Wilson >TKD Student >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang > > > >--------------------------------- >New Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC for low, low rates. >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest