Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 10:49:20 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 13 #150 - 12 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,100 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. nkmaa seminar in MN (sidekicks) 2. Re: Gun Disarms (michael tomlinson) 3. RE: Gun Disarms (Cayson, Clint) 4. Re: nkmaa seminar in MN (Jeremy Anderson) 5. bowing (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 6. RE: Gun Disarms (michael tomlinson) 7. Re: Police Officers (Eric Hotmail) 8. Re: Gun Disarms (Ray) 9. RE: Questions (J R Hilland) 10. Re: Gun Disarms (michael tomlinson) 11. Re; The kneeling bow (Kevin Janisse) 12. Re: Gun Disarms (Ray) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "sidekicks" To: Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 00:44:27 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] nkmaa seminar in MN Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Having attended several of GM Timmerman's seminars in the past year, i can highly reccomend his seminar to anyone who is in the area and wants to learn some new painful techniques. if you are close by, make the time to attend. you wont be dissapointed. Dusty Miner, Kwan Jang 5th Dahn TKD 1st Dahn Hapkido Kevin Janisse wrote: Hello all, This weekend GM Timmerman and I will be in Rochester, MN at Master Fred Gommels school. http://www.mafci.com/schools/rochester/directions.shtml This weekend seems to be a very busy weekend for seminars. I wish the best for those hosting and teaching this weekend. "Train hard, Be well" Sincerely, Kevin Janisse NKMAA --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Gun Disarms Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 12:18:58 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net That is technique number one that I learned from Hal Whalen....it is a good disarm...one thing we try to do is get the muzzle pointing up as soon as possible so the shot "if it happens, and probably will", doesn't go downrange and nail someone...as we finish the motion we try to get the muzzle pointing back on the person holding the gun...but as Ray stated...it depends on some other factors such as body positon..which hand etc..... Michael Tomlinson >From: Ray >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) >Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Gun Disarms >Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 20:22:04 -0800 (PST) > >A very basic handgun disarm, which I have been told by Mas Ayoob is taught >to FBI Special Agents. ??? > >You have someone holding a handgun on you and they are fortunately holding >the gun within your reach. > >You will grab the handgun with your "strong" hand. Assuming that is your >right hand... you slide your left foot back, blading your body out of the >line of sight. Thus you are now facing perpendicular to the plane of the >gun >barrel with your two feet inline. Toes pointing, again, perpendicular to >the >gun's barrel. > >As you are blading your body and sliding your left foot back you grab the >guy's hand and the gun w/your strong hand (your right hand in this >example), >pushing the gun and muzzle away from you. > >With your left hand, you then grab the gun and push it, esp the muzzle, >away >from you as you pull your right hand back toward you. > >If the gun is in his left hand, the gun comes out of his grip and into your >left hand. > >If the gun is in his right hand, you break his finger in the trigger guard >as the gun come out of his grip and into your left hand. > >Retain the gun. Angle back and to his left. Give him two center ma... >umm, never mind that last part. > >Simple. Fast. Effective. > >Ray Terry >rterry@idiom.com >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 3 Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Gun Disarms Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 09:30:08 -0500 From: "Cayson, Clint" To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Just one question. How long will it take to "muzzle" (in terms of timing) a gun and pointing the gun to the person holding than squeezing a trigger? Because as the first shot comes out, the next bullet will instantly positioned. All in all, I find this topic very interesting. -----Original Message----- From: michael tomlinson [mailto:tomlinson_michael@hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2006 7:19 AM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Gun Disarms That is technique number one that I learned from Hal Whalen....it is a good disarm...one thing we try to do is get the muzzle pointing up as soon as possible so the shot "if it happens, and probably will", doesn't go downrange and nail someone...as we finish the motion we try to get the muzzle pointing back on the person holding the gun...but as Ray stated...it depends on some other factors such as body positon..which hand etc..... Michael Tomlinson --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 06:52:38 -0800 (PST) From: Jeremy Anderson Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] nkmaa seminar in MN To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I will be attending GM Timmerman's seminar for the first time. We've been told that if we want to learn soft breaking, we'd need to bring our own patio blocks. Are there a specific type of patio block we should be looking for? I know they come in different densities, some dense enough that they'll stand up to anything short of a jackhammer. Could we go through even these high-density blocks with the soft break? Or should we be looking for low-density? Thanks, Jeremy Anderson. --- sidekicks wrote: > Having attended several of GM Timmerman's seminars in the past year, i > can > highly reccomend his seminar to anyone who is in the area and wants to > learn > some new painful techniques. if you are close by, make the time to > attend. > you wont be dissapointed. > Dusty Miner, Kwan Jang > 5th Dahn TKD > 1st Dahn Hapkido > > Kevin Janisse wrote: > Hello all, > > This weekend GM Timmerman and I will be in Rochester, MN at Master Fred > Gommels school. > http://www.mafci.com/schools/rochester/directions.shtml > > This weekend seems to be a very busy weekend for seminars. > I wish the best for those hosting and teaching this weekend. > > "Train hard, Be well" > > Sincerely, > > Kevin Janisse > NKMAA > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: "the_dojang" Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 07:09:50 -0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] bowing Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I have to agree with Frank Clay , and his post. I too and a Christian, and I can see the concern with the kneeling bow, however like Master Clay posted it is not the bow but the heart that matters. I do not practice the kneeling bow, but when I bow to my instructor, my students, or other practitioners. I do it with sincere respect in my heart, not worship. FWIW: JCGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Gun Disarms Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 15:20:54 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net it's like anything else.. the more you practice and understand it the quicker you can move and control... if you do it right even with resistance we are talking about a time frame of......if one second equals you saying=== one mississippi....then it is about=== one mis.....hope this make some sort of sense???? Wouldn't you say that is pretty close Ray in your estimation??? Michael Tomlinson >From: "Cayson, Clint" >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >To: >Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Gun Disarms >Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 09:30:08 -0500 > >Just one question. How long will it take to "muzzle" (in terms of >timing) a gun and pointing the gun to the person holding than squeezing >a trigger? Because as the first shot comes out, the next bullet will >instantly positioned. > >All in all, I find this topic very interesting. > > >-----Original Message----- >From: michael tomlinson [mailto:tomlinson_michael@hotmail.com] >Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2006 7:19 AM >To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Gun Disarms > >That is technique number one that I learned from Hal Whalen....it is a >good >disarm...one thing we try to do is get the muzzle pointing up as soon as > >possible so the shot "if it happens, and probably will", doesn't go >downrange and nail someone...as we finish the motion we try to get the >muzzle pointing back on the person holding the gun...but as Ray >stated...it >depends on some other factors such as body positon..which hand etc..... > > >Michael Tomlinson >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Eric Hotmail" To: Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 10:22:21 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Police Officers Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Message: 3 > From: "Jon Payne" > To: "The_Dojang" > Subject: RE (2): [The_Dojang] video clip: gun disarms > Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 17:53:16 -0600 > >>>"Most cops that die in the line of duty die in car accidents, the >>>majority >>>of those that die by gunfire die by their own gun.">> > > Sir, > Where do you get your information? There were 150 Officer Deaths in 2005. > I counted about 58 that was gunfire and that included assaults and > accidents. My information tells me one third of Officers shot and killed > are killed with > their own weapon. One third does not equal "Most". Very true Sir, as a veteran Police Officer and D T Instructor I have heard this also and last years LEOKA (Law Enforcement Officers Killed or Assaulted) stats show about one third. The problem comes in when the "percentages of percentages" are used, such as "of the 58 officers killed by gunfire X % or number were by their own weapons". This is the percentage everyone hears and of course it is passed along as cold hard fact (taken out of context). >Not every Officer trains as much as I do. True True True >I have made the decision that when my shift is over I'm going home. I made >that > promise to my wife and kids. I don't intend to break it. > Jon Payne Officer Payne keep making that promise, every day as you leave the house let someone know "I will see you Later" even if its the dog or bird or your pet rock that way you have instilled the will to return. And Thank You for your service Eric Deveau --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Gun Disarms To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 08:30:45 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Well, I'm not exactly sure what the question is here. I'm feeling a little thicker than usual this morning. Is the question related to the old law of "action beats reaction"? You as the person initiating the action should be quicker than the person that has to note the action and then react. Ray > it's like anything else.. the more you practice and understand it the > quicker you can move and control... if you do it right even with resistance > we are talking about a time frame of......if one second equals you saying=== > one mississippi....then it is about=== one mis.....hope this make some sort > of sense???? Wouldn't you say that is pretty close Ray in your > estimation??? > > Michael Tomlinson > > > >From: "Cayson, Clint" > >Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Gun Disarms > >Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 09:30:08 -0500 > > > >Just one question. How long will it take to "muzzle" (in terms of > >timing) a gun and pointing the gun to the person holding than squeezing > >a trigger? Because as the first shot comes out, the next bullet will > >instantly positioned. --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "J R Hilland" To: Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 10:57:00 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Questions Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <<>> Dr. Kimm took us aside and taught us the bowing method before he took us to bow at the grave. The pictures are at http://www.hapkidoselfdefense.com/doju.htm of both the standing bow and kneeling bow (about 1/2 way down the page). They also include Dr. Kimm and Kim Jung Soo (student 8), during a private bowing at the grave of Choi. Jere R. Hilland www.rrhapkido.com PS. I once visited a aikido school taught by a Muslim, very strange. No bowing done by anyone, ever. Felt very odd... --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Gun Disarms Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 17:22:27 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I'm "assuming" he is asking how long it will take to grab the weapon and then turn it backward on your opponent...muzzle anyway....?? Michael Tomlinson >From: Ray >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Gun Disarms >Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 08:30:45 -0800 (PST) > >Well, I'm not exactly sure what the question is here. I'm feeling a little >thicker than usual this morning. > >Is the question related to the old law of "action beats reaction"? > >You as the person initiating the action should be quicker than the person >that has to note the action and then react. > >Ray > > > > it's like anything else.. the more you practice and understand it the > > quicker you can move and control... if you do it right even with >resistance > > we are talking about a time frame of......if one second equals you >saying=== > > one mississippi....then it is about=== one mis.....hope this make some >sort > > of sense???? Wouldn't you say that is pretty close Ray in your > > estimation??? > > > > Michael Tomlinson > > > > > > >From: "Cayson, Clint" > > >Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Gun Disarms > > >Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 09:30:08 -0500 > > > > > >Just one question. How long will it take to "muzzle" (in terms of > > >timing) a gun and pointing the gun to the person holding than squeezing > > >a trigger? Because as the first shot comes out, the next bullet will > > >instantly positioned. >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "Kevin Janisse" To: Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 09:29:19 -0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re; The kneeling bow Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Many good points have been mentioned concerning this topic. I have recently completed a study on "Christian Biblical Submission" so I will quickly share a few things. Mr. Wilson stated: "I know it shows the utmost in respect but, shouldn't the "My utmost [be reserved] for the Highest?" Absoloutely, the act of complete reverence should be reserved for God. This is an act of the heart and soul, not of the body (a bow). Christians are called to submit to all authorities until it becomes an issue going against Biblical truth. We have the choice and privilige to pray in any position we want, standing, walking, laying, kneeling, ect. It matters not what the body is doing but as mentioned in the other posts, it is a matter of the heart. To offer a bow, standing or kneeling, to a teacher, peer or student is simply an act of respect and confirmation that one is able to either submit to ones authority, offer trust, or to meet on equal grounds. At no time in my training or life have I ever bowed to a man/woman with the thought "wow, I can't believe I am in there presence". If not properly explained a kneeling can be misunderstood as an act of reverence especially in a culture that does not bow. This whole thing can get quite complicated if there is not proper perspective. Each person has there own motive and condition that drives them. I teach both the informal standing bow and the formal kneeling bow and explain why to all my students. I even teach twice a week in a church and have had no issues with bowing after the action has been explained. If a student refuses to offer this respect I will not teach them. Keeping in mind that Jesus washed his disciples feet so for Christians, pride should never be an issue Sincerely, Kevin Janisse --__--__-- Message: 12 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Gun Disarms To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 10:22:58 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In that case I don't think you'd even get to the "mis" in "one mis"... Ray > I'm "assuming" he is asking how long it will take to grab the weapon and > then turn it backward on your opponent...muzzle anyway....?? > Michael Tomlinson > > > >From: Ray > >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > >To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > >Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Gun Disarms > >Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 08:30:45 -0800 (PST) > > > >Well, I'm not exactly sure what the question is here. I'm feeling a little > >thicker than usual this morning. > > > >Is the question related to the old law of "action beats reaction"? > > > >You as the person initiating the action should be quicker than the person > >that has to note the action and then react. > > > >Ray > > > > > > > it's like anything else.. the more you practice and understand it the > > > quicker you can move and control... if you do it right even with > >resistance > > > we are talking about a time frame of......if one second equals you > >saying=== > > > one mississippi....then it is about=== one mis.....hope this make some > >sort > > > of sense???? Wouldn't you say that is pretty close Ray in your > > > estimation??? > > > > > > Michael Tomlinson > > > > > > > > > >From: "Cayson, Clint" > > > >Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Gun Disarms > > > >Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 09:30:08 -0500 > > > > > > > >Just one question. How long will it take to "muzzle" (in terms of > > > >timing) a gun and pointing the gun to the person holding than squeezing > > > >a trigger? Because as the first shot comes out, the next bullet will > > > >instantly positioned. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest