Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 16:48:21 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 13 #151 - 16 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,100 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. 2007 Pan Am Games Selection Procudures Now Available (Ray Terry) 2. Re: Sitting bow (ISA Headquarters) 3. Why Do We Bow? (Amcreva Drogovah) 4. Bowing and cargo ethos (sidtkd@aol.com) 5. Re: Gun Disarms (michael tomlinson) 6. Re: The kneeling bow and Christian beliefs (tim walker) 7. Re: bowing, kneeling etc. and religious reservations (Lila Ralston) 8. RE: bowing (J R Hilland) 9. Kneelling bow (Bob Banham) 10. Going Blank (Richard Tomlinson) 11. Gun Question (Jeremy Callner) 12. Spacy Sandy (Gordon) 13. Re: Gun Question (Alida) 14. Re: Gun Question (Ray) 15. Re: Re: bowing, kneeling etc. and religious reservations (Jye nigma) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 10:32:52 -0800 From: "Ray Terry" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] 2007 Pan Am Games Selection Procudures Now Available Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >From USAT... 2007 Pan Am Games Selection Procudures Now Available March 29, 2006 The 2007 Pan American Games selection procedures have been finalized, pending final approval from the United States Olympic Committee. You can view the selection procedures at the following link: http://www.usa-taekwondo.us/2007PanAmGamesSelectionProcudures.pdf --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "ISA Headquarters" To: Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 14:02:29 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Sitting bow Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net We have what is termed "Ahn-jo" or the "Assume formal sitting posture." It is just another 'posture' that we use for training students and teachers alike. From Ahn-jo, we also can bow (and do at times.) The posture is really an exercise in flexibility (as the ankle joints need stretching too, as well as the lower back.) It is also a posture in learning respect for others within the training atmosphere, (To bow is merely a gesture of respect and acknowledgment. When done properly and sharply it reflects an awareness that the school is a special place, and an attitude of seriousness for training.) I appreciate everyone's input on this subject, especially what Kevin just wrote. Respectfully, George I. Petrotta ISA Director www.sungjado.org/ isahdq@sc.rr.com -- ---------------------------------------- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 2536 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Try www.SPAMfighter.com for free now! --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Amcreva Drogovah" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 15:03:45 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Why Do We Bow? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I understand the basic form of bowing, but is there anything else behind the bow that one may not know? Does the bow represent something other then respect and showing that respect? It is used to greet people and say farewell. Is there a history of bowing? When did it first start? Are there martial arts that do not bow? Are there huge differences in bowing from martial art to martial art?  Discuss. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Powerful parental controls improve your peace of mind with MSN Premium. Join now and get the first two months FREE* --__--__-- Message: 4 From: sidtkd@aol.com Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 14:03:48 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Bowing and cargo ethos Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net For me personally, I learned a long time ago that one of the most boorish things to attempt to do is to import ones ethos, ways of doing social business or cultural values on anyone else. The notion of bowing is most acceptable to me because there are so many germs carried on the human hand its often best not to make that contact. But kneeling bow sticks in my craw. I would never try to high five someone if I were in Korea and kneeling before a person will never happen for me! Why I wonder would anyone expect something like that from a person in a country not their own??? To att6empt to do that is known as "importing cargo ethos". Sid Rubinfeld --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Gun Disarms Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 19:05:05 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Good....we are on the same page...I was thinking that too..... Michael Tomlinson >From: Ray >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Gun Disarms >Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 10:22:58 -0800 (PST) > >In that case I don't think you'd even get to the "mis" in "one mis"... > >Ray > > > > I'm "assuming" he is asking how long it will take to grab the weapon and > > then turn it backward on your opponent...muzzle anyway....?? > > Michael >Tomlinson > > > > > > >From: Ray > > >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > > >To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > > >Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Gun Disarms > > >Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 08:30:45 -0800 (PST) > > > > > >Well, I'm not exactly sure what the question is here. I'm feeling a >little > > >thicker than usual this morning. > > > > > >Is the question related to the old law of "action beats reaction"? > > > > > >You as the person initiating the action should be quicker than the >person > > >that has to note the action and then react. > > > > > >Ray > > > > > > > > > > it's like anything else.. the more you practice and understand it >the > > > > quicker you can move and control... if you do it right even with > > >resistance > > > > we are talking about a time frame of......if one second equals you > > >saying=== > > > > one mississippi....then it is about=== one mis.....hope this make >some > > >sort > > > > of sense???? Wouldn't you say that is pretty close Ray in your > > > > estimation??? > > > > > > > > Michael Tomlinson > > > > > > > > > > > > >From: "Cayson, Clint" > > > > >Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Gun Disarms > > > > >Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 09:30:08 -0500 > > > > > > > > > >Just one question. How long will it take to "muzzle" (in terms of > > > > >timing) a gun and pointing the gun to the person holding than >squeezing > > > > >a trigger? Because as the first shot comes out, the next bullet >will > > > > >instantly positioned. >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "tim walker" To: Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 14:31:07 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: The kneeling bow and Christian beliefs Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <> Do your Christian beliefs favor breaking someone's elbow? Seems to me that it's what's in your heart (intent) that counts, not your posture. Doesn't your Book favor following the customs of the land so long as they don't go against the Ten Commandments? I once had a student come to me saying he needed to learn Hapkido because he was going to sneak into Tibet to preach Christianity and felt justified in killing under those circumstances because the Tibetans were persecuting Christians, all in the name of Jesus (kind of like those Jihad fellas, only different). I'm not trying to pick a fight, but if you don't like the customs of the Art, take up something that doesn't offend you. timo "Rule 62" --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Lila Ralston" To: Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 14:35:14 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: bowing, kneeling etc. and religious reservations Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Although I have a degree in religion, my standing in TKD is nil, so this is at best a semi-informed opinion: People come to TKD from so many different traditions, cultures and religions that it's unrealistic to expect even a uniform, well-understood gesture like bowing to mean the same thing to everyone. There are religious traditions (Islam, Orthodox Judaism) where such a gesture directed towards another human being would be considered sacrilege. On the other hand, in many Asian cultures it has no more religious significance than a handshake (for example, Japanese newscasters bow to the audience at the beginning of their programs). I can't speak for anyone else's religion, but my own religious tradition addressed this question early on, when the church in Corinth asked Paul 'what should we do about eating meat that's been sacrificed to idols?' (as most meat sold in butcher's shops in Corinth had been). His stance was that because those idols represented gods who don't exist, no harm is done--UNLESS someone's conscience is troubled by it. In which case, those who aren't bothered by the custom should yield to those who are. I think this is still a reasonable standard. Martial arts training does not have the same significance in most people's lives as their religion. If a martial arts custom poses a serious challenge to someone's religious beliefs, I think the courteous thing for the rest of us to do is allow that person to deviate from the custom. Respect begins with respecting each other. From my perspective, that's more important than uniformity. As I said, though, I have no standing in TKD; just an interested pinion. --Lila Ralston --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "J R Hilland" To: Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 14:07:51 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: bowing Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <<>> You lost me here. Please explain how you could perceive a difference between bowing from standing and bowing from kneeling. I came up through the ranks doing both, for me there is no difference. Jere R. Hilland www.rrhapkido.com --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Bob Banham" To: Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 21:45:32 +0100 Subject: [The_Dojang] Kneelling bow Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I have to admit I find this a very strange topic but here goes... Like Jere I too have found Muslims unwilling to bow to me, each other or anything else but Allah. But these were English converts and strangely their Middle Eastern counterparts had no such issues. Apart from the people writing on the digest, I have not encountered it among any other faith anywhere in the world. Perhaps it is a question of confidence in one's faith. Like Kevin, I will not teach anyone who refuses to offer me that simple and reciprocated courtesy. Bob --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Richard Tomlinson" To: Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 17:09:43 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Going Blank Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Anyone ever when either competing in a forms competition or doing a demonstration, ever go completely blank at the beginning of such... but really, has anyone just gone blank at a time where you know before what to do, are comfortable, but once there,at the event, total blank mind space.... sandy --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "Jeremy Callner" To: Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 16:17:30 -0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] Gun Question Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net If a gun goes off while you're holding it, is there any other risk besides the bullet? Does the barrel get too hot to hold? Are there little sparks that can get in your eyes or anything? Or have I been watching too many crime shows? Can someone who regularly fires a real gun let me know? Thanks, Jeremy --__--__-- Message: 12 From: "Gordon" To: Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 16:32:41 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Spacy Sandy Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net All the time. I think it's trying to remember everything. -Not just the pattern, but how much time you have, who's up next, do they know they're next, did they bring their weapon, did I buy enough wood, can't forget to introduce/thank everybody. and so on. Like in the recent movie: The Last Samurai, I wish I could have: "No mind." at demos as well as in battle. Makes me think I would go blank in battle. Then, I would think of purple spandex, clear my mind and kick as.. uh, tail. :-) Gordon Okerstrom --__--__-- Message: 13 Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 17:30:30 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) From: "Alida" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Gun Question Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net What type of gun? I carry a Walther PPK .380. My husband, a H&K .40 USB. Both of those weapons have a slide that can be hell on the hand. I lost many a chunk of flesh when he first started training me many years ago. I'd imagine it would be either a) difficult to hold and/or b) painful to try to hold the barrel of either of those weapons. And yes, they do get hot, but I would say it's far, far less than oh, putting your hand on a hot stove. Alida -------Original Message------- From: Jeremy Callner Date: 03/30/06 17:24:08 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Gun Question If a gun goes off while you're holding it, is there any other risk besides the bullet? Does the barrel get too hot to hold? Are there little sparks that can get in your eyes or anything? Or have I been watching too many crime shows? Can someone who regularly fires a real gun let me know? Thanks, Jeremy _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 14 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Gun Question To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 14:47:03 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > If a gun goes off while you're holding it, is there any other risk besides the > bullet? Does the barrel get too hot to hold? After only a round or two? No. > Are there little sparks that can get in your eyes or anything? Maybe. Depends. > Or have I been watching too many crime shows? Yes. :) Bottom line... Would you rather have a warm hand and maybe a blasted ear drum and a sore eye or a bullet in your head? Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 15 Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 16:06:21 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: bowing, kneeling etc. and religious reservations To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Good post. However, one thing I'd like to add is that it's up to each christian to decide if they should even participate in something that they would see go against their religion or spirituality. Me personally, I don't even train in things which goes against my belief like honoring various spirits. Jye Lila Ralston wrote: Although I have a degree in religion, my standing in TKD is nil, so this is at best a semi-informed opinion: People come to TKD from so many different traditions, cultures and religions that it's unrealistic to expect even a uniform, well-understood gesture like bowing to mean the same thing to everyone. There are religious traditions (Islam, Orthodox Judaism) where such a gesture directed towards another human being would be considered sacrilege. On the other hand, in many Asian cultures it has no more religious significance than a handshake (for example, Japanese newscasters bow to the audience at the beginning of their programs). I can't speak for anyone else's religion, but my own religious tradition addressed this question early on, when the church in Corinth asked Paul 'what should we do about eating meat that's been sacrificed to idols?' (as most meat sold in butcher's shops in Corinth had been). His stance was that because those idols represented gods who don't exist, no harm is done--UNLESS someone's conscience is troubled by it. In which case, those who aren't bothered by the custom should yield to those who are. I think this is still a reasonable standard. Martial arts training does not have the same significance in most people's lives as their religion. If a martial arts custom poses a serious challenge to someone's religious beliefs, I think the courteous thing for the rest of us to do is allow that person to deviate from the custom. Respect begins with respecting each other. From my perspective, that's more important than uniformity. As I said, though, I have no standing in TKD; just an interested pinion. --Lila Ralston _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --------------------------------- Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest