Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2006 03:01:46 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 13 #154 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on plus11.host4u.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.3 required=5.0 tests=NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,100 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Bowing (steven riggs) 2. Why Do We Bow? (Walton Guthrie) 3. Re: rwood's comment (ISA Headquarters) 4. RE: Why Do We Bow? (Joseph Cheavens) 5. Reply to mr. Ray (Wes Heaps) 6. Re: sit (ABurrese@aol.com) 7. Re: Reply to mr. Ray (Ray) 8. Re: Demo (Ray) 9. Re: Martial arts and bowing (Jodanne B) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 09:42:33 -0800 (PST) From: steven riggs Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Bowing To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I read the response of rwood just yesterday and was encouraged, humbled and in agreement. Particularly in his discussion with Mr Walker. I have a son who is and has been hurt by hypocritical Christians. It is not the fault of the rest of us that these things happened and certainly not the fault of God. We know that we are created imperfect beings and thru faith in Christ we can work towards our lives being more like his. People who train with weights want to sculpt their bodies to be bigger, stronger & more efficient. Martial artists want to be quicker, stronger, more powerful & more knowledgeable. All admirable pursuits, Christians just want to be more like who they worship. Christian martial artists want to first be more Christ like, while being improved martial artists. I was a police officer who being a Bible College graduate studying for 5 years in the fields of theology and Christian Education was questioned about my faith. While being interviewed for the position of basic patrolman 1 the question was with my religous beliefs how sure was I that I could use deadly force. I responded that while never wanting to be put in that position and required to do so I would not hesistate to fire my duty weapon to save my life or the life of my partner or a 3rd party. It was less than a month after completing rookie school that a situation almost went out of control on an attempted robbery and I believed a person whirled around on me inside a large car with out of state plates pointing an object at me the approx size of a small handgun. I went from high state of alert to ultra high. I was mostly behind a concrete pillar, had my sites on the subject and shifted my finger from the frame of the weapon to the trigger and was waiting for positive visual ID that it was a gun. It was not, he had a wallet he was throwing out and then rushed out of the car toward me. He was 6'8" and over 290lb to my 5'10 and 160lb. I did not fire but the time and pressure on the trigger was miniscule. I learned 2 things in that minisecond. First was that if needed I could use deadly force, and secondly how much I didn't want to as my pulse raced and I had trouble sleeping that night. It turned out he had numerous brushes with the law and had recently been released from a mental institution where in the good judgment of the commonwealth of PA he needed to be rather than a penal institution where he would have been unable to try to rob people. I think Mr Wood makes some valid points and I appreciated his contribution. Steven rwood wrote: First; I agree with 100%, intent is the key. In the Old Testament men and woman of God submitted themselves to the local rules, without compromising their relationship with the Lord. They were able to maintain the purity of their relationship with the Lord in those environments due to the attitude of their heart, a heart for God. We can do the same in the Dojang. Second; it is NOT my book, his book, or her book. It is the Bible, God’s Holy Word. The Bible is a guide to all people, in all places on how we should treat one another and how to develop a right relationship with God. Third; to a Mr. Walker, I find it highly inflammatory that you would attack all of Christianity based on your limited dealings with one individual. Yes, I am aware of those who call themselves Christian and shoot doctors who perform abortions, bomb abortion clinics; I am fairly well versed in the history of the Spanish Inquisition, and the Crusades. As martial artists you and I both grimace when a would be martial arts “master” pulls a bonehead stunt or makes an outrages claims that embarrass all martial artist. We realize how much harder we must work to overcome the bogus claims, false expectations, and skepticism surrounding the martial arts due to the actions of those kinds of individuals. Christianity is no different. As a pastor, I deal with people who have written Christianity off because of bad press. The rebuilding of trust is never easy and always a long-term project. Comments, such as yours, about Christian being the same as those who fly aircraft into buildings, car bombs into shopping areas, and homicide bombers who walk into wedding reception are “kind of like those Jihad fellas, only Different” (your words, not mine) are not only irresponsible, reactionary, and narrow minded, but rude as well. You called this individual “student”; does that mean you took his money and trained him, knowing how he intended to use YOUR art, Mr. Walker? Fourth; I believe that any of you were not looking for a fight. After us Christians are supposed to be meek and humble. This seems to be interrupt as not fighting back, and after all you guys are on the DD where you have all kids of support to bash Christian beliefs and lol. That appears to be a bullying behavior. Yes, I am aware of the scripture that speaks about turning the other cheek. That is meant to teach us not to let little insults turn into wars. It does NOT call for Christians to be lead around by our noses. In fact scripture calls for us to be bold and confront those who are spreading misconceptions, false teachings, and oppression. I dedicated the first part of my life to the preservation of this country and our way of life. My 23 years as a United States Air Force Security Forces (read as Police) Technical Sergeant, meant that everyday I armed and went to work to protect people and property. I was in situations were the use of deadly force was authorized and did not hesitate. I am compelled by Scripture to protect my family, my country, my community, and my neighbors. Everyone is entitled to your opinion and I would never restrict anyone’s ability to express your opinion; however just because you believe “it” doesn’t make “it” true. IHS, Rob He who ignores disciple comes to poverty and shame, but whoever heeds correction is honored. Proverbs 13:18 _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less. --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Walton Guthrie" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Why Do We Bow? Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 12:46:20 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bowing is a sign of submission and a demonstration of social rank. People of the same social rank will perform a very curt bow while maintaining eye contact (unless the situation is formal, then a more formal bow will be called for, but still both parties will bow to each other in similar fashion denoting their similar social rank). A person of a lower social rank will bow very low (90 degrees at the waist), stare down at the ground, and hold that position until well after the other person has returned their bow (averting the eyes and holding the bow longer are both signs of respect). I've always heard the prostrate bow referred to as kowtowing. This is done towards a person of extremely high social rank. Say the emperor, a person's liege lord, or a peasant towards a member of the nobility. To kowtow you drop down to your knees and bow forward until your forehead touches the ground. This positon would be held until the person being bowed to leaves your presence or until they tell you otherwise. While outwardly bowing is a show of respect it is more accurately described as observance of social custom. Enemies who hate each other still bow to each other. To not bow or to not bow properly is a demonstration of one's ignorance of social conventions. In other words you will still bow towards someone you don't respect because social conventions dictate that is how civilized people behave. Not bowing low enough, not matching the other person's bow (unless you are clearly their superior), etc. are considered very rude. A slap in the face. Also bowing too low when the situation does not dictate it makes one appear foolish. As a general rule Oriental societies are much more subtle and nuanced than our Western society. What appears to us to be a form of worship (or near worship) is in fact just the way people greet and interact. >From: "Amcreva Drogovah" >To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 15:03:45 -0400 >Subject: [The_Dojang] Why Do We Bow? >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > >I understand the basic form of bowing, but is there anything else behind >the bow that one may not know? Does the bow represent something other >then respect and showing that respect? It is used to greet people and say >farewell. Is there a history of bowing? When did it first start? Are >there martial arts that do not bow? Are there huge differences in bowing >from martial art to martial art? Discuss. --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "ISA Headquarters" To: Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 13:01:52 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: rwood's comment Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To "rwood", Here, Here! Amen! Respectfully, George I. Petrotta ISA Director www.sungjado.org/ isahdq@sc.rr.com -- ---------------------------------------- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 2603 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Try www.SPAMfighter.com for free now! --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Joseph Cheavens" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Why Do We Bow? Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 15:14:08 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >From my experience with the kneeling bow, it is usually done in the dojang/dojo when you are already in a kneeling position. In my original dojang, we started off with a short meditation in seiza (kneeling) to clear our minds, then we'd bow in. At the end of class, we'd finish up with a brief meditation and then bow out. If memory serves, this was pretty much the same at the Kumano Juku Dojo where I studied Aikido in Shingu, Japan. In dojangs where meditation is not part of the opening or closing ceremony, then a standing bow was used. Joe Cheavens -------------------------------------------------------------------- From:  "Walton Guthrie" Reply-To:  the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To:   Subject:  [The_Dojang] Why Do We Bow? Date:  Fri, 31 Mar 2006 12:46:20 -0500 >Bowing is a sign of submission and a demonstration of social rank.  People of >the same social rank will perform a very curt bow while maintaining eye >contact (unless the situation is formal, then a more formal bow will be called >for, but still both parties will bow to each other in similar fashion denoting >their similar social rank).  A person of a lower social rank will bow very low >(90 degrees at the waist), stare down at the ground, and hold that position >until well after the other person has returned their bow (averting the eyes >and holding the bow longer are both signs of respect).  I've always heard the >prostrate bow referred to as kowtowing.  This is done towards a person of >extremely high social rank. Say the emperor, a person's liege lord, or a >peasant towards a member of the nobility.  To kowtow you drop down to your >knees and bow forward until your forehead touches the ground.  This positon >would be held until the person being bowed to leaves your presence or until >they tell you otherwise.  While outwardly bowing is a show of respect it is >more accurately described as observance of social custom.  Enemies who hate >each other still bow to each other.  To not bow or to not bow properly is a >demonstration of one's ignorance of social conventions.  In other words you >will still bow towards someone you don't respect because social conventions >dictate that is how civilized people behave.  Not bowing low enough, not >matching the other person's bow (unless you are clearly their superior), etc. >are considered very rude.  A slap in the face.  Also bowing too low when the >situation does not dictate it makes one appear foolish.  As a general rule >Oriental societies are much more subtle and nuanced than our Western society. >What appears to us to be a form of worship (or near worship) is in fact just >the way people greet and interact. > > > >From: "Amcreva Drogovah" > >To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > >Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 15:03:45 -0400 > >Subject: [The_Dojang] Why Do We Bow? > >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > > > >I understand the basic form of bowing, but is there anything else behind > >the bow that one may not know? Does the bow represent something other > >then respect and showing that respect? It is used to greet people and say > >farewell. Is there a history of bowing? When did it first start? Are > >there martial arts that do not bow? Are there huge differences in bowing > >from martial art to martial art? Discuss. >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 14:05:31 -0800 (PST) From: Wes Heaps To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Reply to mr. Ray Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net We use our bow as a salute to both the flags and to the higher ranks and also all of the people in my org. first we salute to the national flag then we salute to the Organizations flag- to all the people in the org. then we salute GM Suh then down through the ranks that are in attendance. at the beg. and end of EVERY class session or event. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 6 From: ABurrese@aol.com Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 19:24:05 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: sit Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >><<>It is just another 'posture' that we use for training students and teachers >>alike. From Ahn-jo, we also can bow (and do at times.)>>> >>I believe the Hangul is anja, but the pronunciation is as you state. At >>least it is the way I was taught and your explanations was right on the >>mark. I believe what you are both referring to is the word for sit. Yi-saeng is actually on a plane to Korea as I type this, but this is the common word for sit. We say it to Cosette all the time, etc. Alain www.burrese.com --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Reply to mr. Ray To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 16:27:05 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > We use our bow as a salute to both the flags and to > the higher ranks and also all of the people in my org. A bow also being a salute, in your school/org, is yet another reason why it is unlikely there will never be consistent agreement as to what is proper and traditional and what is not. It seems that what is right, wrong, traditional and untraditional is mostly dictated at the school (or chain of schools) level. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Demo To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 19:14:22 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > We had a little demo last Saturday (March 25th) > > I posted some of the highlights at video.google.com (a great place to > upload your videos) > > http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-82942542466661679 Good demo. Do we see Klaas in there anywhere? Is there an interesting story to the addition of the dance component to Hankido? It seems so unique I figure there might also be a unique story to its genesis. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 20:33:39 -0800 (PST) From: Jodanne B Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Martial arts and bowing To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I wonder how many folks out there have trouble with bowing in martial arts because they are concerned (misunderstood?) about the "religious connotations" but have no difficulty bowing after a great performance on a stage? FWIW, Jodanne --------------------------------- Blab-away for as little as 1¢/min. Make PC-to-Phone Calls using Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest