Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2006 11:22:21 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 13 #155 - 13 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,100 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Black Belt Granny (C.Sears) 2. WTF Posts Electronic Protector Test Results (Ray Terry) 3. Who didn't see this coming? (tim walker) 4. Re: Who didn't see this coming? (Ray) 5. USA Taekwondo Referee Seminars (Ray Terry) 6. video clips: TKD & hapkido (Jye nigma) 7. Re: Who didn't see this coming? (Jye nigma) 8. RE: video clips: TKD & hapkido (michael tomlinson) 9. RE: Demo (Stovall, Craig) 10. RE: Bowing and Beliefs... (J Thomas Howard) 11. Re: gun disarms and self-defense... (J Thomas Howard) 12. Support For New Laptops (Ray Terry) 13. Yu, Won, Wha (Ray Terry) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2006 00:12:05 -0600 From: "C.Sears" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Black Belt Granny Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net wrote: > >BETHANY -- Mija Kim doesn't like taking medications or gaining weight. > >So to stay healthy, she signed up for tae kwon do. Except Kim's not >your typical student tackling a board-breaking martial art. She's 71. > >Most remarkable: Kim recently earned a black belt. > > Marjorie Templeton was inducted as a Master Instructor in the ATA at age 80. She'll run the wheels off of you. :-) --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2006 08:06:00 -0800 From: "Ray Terry" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] WTF Posts Electronic Protector Test Results Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net WTF Posts Electronic Protector Test Results The Seoul Times The ad-hoc Committee on Electronic Protectors of the World Taekwondo Federation announced its evaluation results of an electronic protector demonstration on March 28, 2006. The demonstration, the second of its kind by WTF after the demonstration on July 20, 2005, took place at Kyung Hee University on March 25, 2006. The demonstration attracted four companies: LaJUST of Korea, ATM of Austria, True Score (Impact Measurement), a U.S.-Korea joint venture, and Daedo of Spain. With regard to the electronic protector system comprising of just the body protectors, LaJUST was the only participant that passed the "acceptable" level of the basic technical requirements to be applied to taekwondo competition. The systems of two other companies, ATM and Daedo, failed to meet the requirements in the category of "differentiation of valid impact and invalid impact." The system of True Score failed to meet the acceptable level in two categories: "accuracy of the sense-impact level" and "differentiation of valid impact and invalid impact." The other two basic technical requirements are "consecutive impacts" and "calibration." In demonstrations of electronic protector systems comprising of both the head and body protectors, however, the two demonstrators - LaJUST and Daedo – failed to meet the acceptable level of the basic technical requirements. The company that passed the evaluation is required to undergo both laboratory and field tests. Laboratory tests, which will be conducted by the Korea Institute of Sports Science (KISS), will involve sense-impact level tests, transmission systems, safety on electricity and electronics, and endurance of materials. Fields tests, whose contents and criteria will be made by the ad-hoc committee, aim to determine the conformity of the system to real-life competition, testing the system in a "live" competition setting. After evaluating the overall tests, the ad-hoc committee is scheduled to present its final evaluation report to WTF, which will be used for WTF's selection of official electronic protector companies. WTF is to make a progress report on the electronic protectors before the WTF Executive Council meeting and the General Assembly during the 6th WTF World Junior Taekwondo Championships scheduled for July 26-30, 2006 in Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam. The ad-hoc committee recommended WTF to allow the companies that failed this time to apply for additional evaluations. But the committee made it clear that the companies that want to be re-evaluated should undergo all the evaluations in the four basic technical categories and laboratory and field tests. As part of WTF's reform program, the ad-hoc committee on electronic protectors was set up in July 2005 and held its first meeting together with a demonstration of electronic protectors on July 20, 2005 in Seoul. The committee is composed of nine members, including Mr. Soo-nam Park, vice president of WTF, who serves as chairman of the committee; and Mr. Eui-min Ko, chairman of the WTF Technical Committee. In accordance with the recommendations of the ad-hoc committee after the first demonstration on July 20, 2005, WTF commissioned the KISS to produce a report on basic specifications of electronic protectors. On Dec. 30, 2005, WTF announced the specifications. WTF aims to introduce the new electronic protector system at the 2007 World Taekwondo Championships to be held in Beijing, China, in 2007 and plans to introduce the new system at the Beijing Olympic Games in 2008 to ensure fairness in refereeing and judgment at taekwondo competition. "We are doing our utmost to introduce the new electronic protector system without fail, which will make a milestone in the history of taekwondo," said Chungwon Choue, president of WTF. --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "tim walker" To: Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2006 12:00:23 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Who didn't see this coming? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Gentle people of all cuts of the cloth: Someone contacted me off post to warn me of the probable incoming artillery from my last statements. To that end, may I suggest that if any of you want to attack my opinions on religion, take it off the digest and email me directly, my address is here for all to see. Mr. Wood: I initially penned a long response to your posting, but, whatever. Those so entrenched in their opinions are the least likely to listen to yours. Mr. Riggs: <> Thou shalt not kill. Sounds pretty cut and dried to me. But I'm sure you can find a way to rationalize it. My promise: If y'all keep the discussion to Martial Arts, so will I. Tim Walker --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Who didn't see this coming? To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2006 09:23:02 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > ... Thou shalt not kill. Sounds pretty cut and dried to me. An inacurate translation that has confused many over the years. In the original Hebrew it is closer to thou shall not murder, or even more precisely thou shall not kill maliciously or unlawfully. But back to KMA we go... Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2006 18:25:40 -0800 From: "Ray Terry" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] USA Taekwondo Referee Seminars Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net USA Taekwondo Referee Seminars Date: March 31, 2006 Location: Rochester National Qualifier Kahler Grand Hotel 20 SW Second Avenue Rochester, MN 55902 Host: USA Taekwondo Instructors: John Holloway and Barbara Wakefield Contact: Jeanna Mendoza Phone: (719) 866-4632 Email: jeanna.mendoza@usa-taekwondo.us ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Date: April 7, 2006 Location: Portland National Qualifier Rose Quarters Memorial Coliseum One Center Court, Suite 100 Portland, OR 97227 Host: USA Taekwondo Instructors: Leon Preston and Valerie Long Contact: Jeanna Mendoza Phone: (719) 866-4632 Email: jeanna.mendoza@usa-taekwondo.us ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Date: April 15, 2006 Location: U.S. Taekwondo Academy 6220 Eastern Avenue Baltimore, MD 21224 Host: Yong Seong Chang Instructor: Chuong Pham ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Date: April 21, 2006 Location: Anaheim National Qualifier Anaheim Convention Center Anaheim Arena Radisson Motel Maingate 1850 South Harbor Blvd. Anaheim, CA 92802 Host: USA Taekwondo Instructors: Chang Kil Kim and Greg Kailian Contact: Jeanna Mendoza Phone: (719) 866-4632 Email: jeanna.mendoza@usa-taekwondo.us ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Date: April 21, 2006 Location: Valley West Inn 3535 Westown Parkway West Des Moines, IA 50266 Host: Farrell's U.S. Martial Arts 515-770-7295 Instructor: Lance Farrell ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Date: April 22, 2006 Location: 20 Plantation Drive Fredericksburg, VA 22406 Host: Gentle East Martial Arts Bernard Robinson Instructor: Bernard Robinson ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Date: May 5, 2006 Location: Choson Taekwondo 265 Main Street Northboro, MA 01532 Host: Choson Taekwondo Jay Ferguson Instructor: Jim Montgomery ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Date: May 12, 2006 Location: Dallas National Qualifier Dallas Convention Center 650 S. Griffin Street Dallas, TX 75202 Host: USA Taekwondo Contact: Jeanna Mendoza Phone: (719) 866-4632 Email: jeanna.mendoza@usa-taekwondo.us ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Date: May 19, 2006 Location: Buffalo National Qualifier Buffalo Convention Center Convention Center Plaza Buffalo, NY 14202 Host: USA Taekwondo Contact: Jeanna Mendoza Phone: (719) 866-4632 Email: jeanna.mendoza@usa-taekwondo.us ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Date: May 26, 2006 Location: Miami National Qualifier Wyndham Miami Airport Hotel 3900 NW 21st Street Miami, FL 33142 Host: USA Taekwondo Contact: Jeanna Mendoza Phone: (719) 866-4632 Email: jeanna.mendoza@usa-taekwondo.us --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2006 18:31:58 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma To: itf-taekwondo@yahoogroups.com, the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] video clips: TKD & hapkido Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net http://media.putfile.com/taekwondo-korean-tigers-board-break http://media.putfile.com/Hapkido-knifehand-press --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less. --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2006 19:01:45 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Who didn't see this coming? To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I'd say don't sweat it...if we do the math...just about every war in ancient times had to do with religion directly or indirectly. for instance, pagans would fight for their gods and ask for their gods protection. God's people fought for God, and as lead by God. So it actually is on topic. As far as my belief goes, my standard of life is the 10 commandments in their entirety. Thou shalt not kill when researched the word used for kill is the one which means premeditated....murder. So if I rush to the aid of a woman or child etc being attacked and in the heat of the moment I kill the attacker, I wont be penalized by my God. If I plan on killing someone and do it, then I better repent soon after the deed is done. The bible is full of battles and full scale war stories of how God's people killed, were killed, etc. One of my favorite stories is one of how a woman was defiled and her brothers convinced all the men in the city (of the responsible defilers) to get circumcised....this making them weak and when it had been done, these brothers killed them all....lol. Now that is the makings of a good movie...lol Jye tim walker wrote: Gentle people of all cuts of the cloth: Someone contacted me off post to warn me of the probable incoming artillery from my last statements. To that end, may I suggest that if any of you want to attack my opinions on religion, take it off the digest and email me directly, my address is here for all to see. Mr. Wood: I initially penned a long response to your posting, but, whatever. Those so entrenched in their opinions are the least likely to listen to yours. Mr. Riggs: > Thou shalt not kill. Sounds pretty cut and dried to me. But I'm sure you can find a way to rationalize it. My promise: If y'all keep the discussion to Martial Arts, so will I. Tim Walker _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less. --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] video clips: TKD & hapkido Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2006 04:25:51 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net on the hapkido video....yep...we call that technique a inside soft block to low armbar.... Michael Tomlinson >From: Jye nigma >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >To: itf-taekwondo@yahoogroups.com, the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >Subject: [The_Dojang] video clips: TKD & hapkido >Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2006 18:31:58 -0800 (PST) > >http://media.putfile.com/taekwondo-korean-tigers-board-break > > http://media.putfile.com/Hapkido-knifehand-press > > >--------------------------------- >Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ >countries) for 2¢/min or less. >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2006 08:21:04 -0500 From: "Stovall, Craig" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Demo Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <<>> I also enjoyed it and was really impressed with some of the parts. The aerial breakfalls were very impressive. It was actually amazing how softly some of those guys were landing. Very nice. I did kind of feel for the one guy...maybe he was having an off night, but he kept hitting the mat pretty hard. I'm also curious about the dance portion. Not my cup of tea, but an interesting take on things, nonetheless. Thank for sharing!!! --__--__-- Message: 10 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2006 11:14:44 -0500 (CDT) From: thomcat@binary.net (J Thomas Howard) Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Bowing and Beliefs... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > From: "rwood" > Second; it is NOT my book, his book, or her book. It is the > Bible, God’s Holy Word. The Bible is a guide to all > people, in all places on how we should treat one another and > how to develop a right relationship with God. According to your beliefs. If people do not believe as you do, then it isn't. For example, a historian might say that the bible is a book based on ancient writings, all of which were picked and chosen from a much larger set of writings to promulgate an arranged set of beliefs, which has been translated time and again with each translation altered over time depending on the societal beliefs and political requirements of the time. Other people would say that the changes and choices made were directly influenced by a god so that the bible, after all the changes, is indeed still what that god intended as a lesson. One of those comments is based on fact (the historian's version) and the other on faith. Does this mean that the faith-based version is untrue? No, it simply means that the faith-based version has no factual basis. It may be true, but we don't know--it is an article of faith. If you don't follow that faith, you won't believe it is true, because you have no reason to do so. I believe that the problem we have here is the fact that people are confusing "belief" with "absolute truth." Christians have no proof that their beliefs are correct. Neither does any other religion. However, many people (of all religions) assume that because they believe it, it _must be_ the truth. Most of which is immaterial to the practice of martial arts and bowing. If your beliefs do not allow you to bow, then you shouldn't bow. If they do, then what's the big deal? Some people here are trying to explain the meaning of bowing and discussing intent but in the end, it will be a personal choice for people, based on their understanding of their own belief systems. Bowing as a sign of mutual respect is required in my dojang. I've lost a student or two who wanted to start class, but was unable to bow. That is fine--everyone is entitled to their own belief system. However, if people cannot abide by the rules of the school, then they don't belong in the school, and can find another. In a similar fashion, after awhile I got tired of trying to explain that my class may discuss philosophy, but doesn't have anything to do with religion because they are two different things. As such, since I am dealing with adults, I proceed on the assumption that they can think on their own, and makes their own choices. If they don't like the behavior in my school, they can either leave, or attempt to broaden their understanding of different behaviors. If a broadened understanding is still unacceptable, they can still always leave. People get emotional over their belief systems. An important thing to remember is that "faith" means in the end that it is your opinion, no more. Just because many people have the same faith does not make it automatically "truth." Other people may not share your faith, and if they don't, you aren't going to have a factual logical basis to argue that you are correct. What's the quote? "The plural of 'anecdote' is not 'evidence'." In a similar fashion, shared faith does not create absolute truth. Thomas H. (Who, I'll note, hasn't offered any commentary about his own faith, since it is immaterial to this discussion.) ------------------------------------ thomcat@binary.net hapkido.4t.com "If you aren't modeling what you are teaching then you are teaching something else." --__--__-- Message: 11 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2006 11:21:50 -0500 (CDT) From: thomcat@binary.net (J Thomas Howard) Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: gun disarms and self-defense... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > From: "Jon Payne" > Subject: RE (2): [The_Dojang] video clip: gun disarms Jon was replying to this comment: > >>"Most cops that die in the line of duty die in car accidents, the majority > >>of those that die by gunfire die by their own gun.">> > There was also quite a few Vehicular Assaults and heart attacks. My > information tells me one third of Officers shot and killed are killed with > their own weapon. One third does not equal "Most". Indeed, being killed with one's own gun is a problem. However, "gun disarms" are not the point, as I believe that in most cases, the LEOs who were killed by their own gun had it taken from their holster in a physical altercation as they attempted to subdue a combative person. As Jon says: > Allot Officers have become more skilled at weapons retention and use Threat > Level III holsters. Notice I did not say most, but allot. This sort of thing has lowered the numbers of LEOs who are killed by their own weapons. Not to zero by any means, but it helps. The problem here is that taking self-defense information from LEO situations is not that useful. For example, the BJJ crowd for years sang the phrase "90% of fights go to the ground" which is not even close to true, but was taken from a police report/study that showed under certain circumstances, many police altercations ended up with someone on the ground--which makes sense, because in an altercation, the LEO is taught to take the person down and restrain them. This, of course, has nothing to do with normal self-defense situations. In a similar fashion, saying that "police officers who are killed often are killed by their own gun" is not the same as saying "many police officers who have someone at gunpoint get it taken away from them and then are shot and killed." Thomas H. ------------------------------------ thomcat@binary.net hapkido.4t.com "If you aren't modeling what you are teaching then you are teaching something else." --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2006 09:33:30 -0700 From: "Ray Terry" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Support For New Laptops Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Common Sense Systems Announces Support For New Laptops - New Adapter Technology Updates Precision Score Common Sense Systems, Inc., developer of the Precision Score electronic scoring system for Taekwondo, today announced new support for laptops lacking a built-in parallel port. Woodinville, WA (PRWEB) April 2, 2006 -- Common Sense Systems, Inc., developer of the Precision Score electronic scoring system for the martial arts, today announced new support for Precision Score use with laptops lacking a built-in parallel port. Commenting on the news, John Sambrook, President of Common Sense Systems, Inc., said "For many years now, Precision Score has been the simple, economical solution for scoring Taekwondo. But we were limited by the fact that the parallel port on which our system depended was becoming less and less available on new laptops. This was a problem for our customers and a problem for us. Reengineering the system would have forced us to raise our prices significantly. That is not something we wanted to do to our customers. Today, we are thrilled to announce a solution to this problem. Starting today, customers can order PCMCIA adapters that allow Precision Score to work perfectly on modern laptops that do not have a built-in parallel port. Unlike USB to Parallel adapter cables -- which do not transfer the signals Precision Score needs to work -- the new PCMCIA adapter works perfectly." The new adapter plugs into the standard PCMCIA slot on all laptops and provides a parallel port connection for use by Precision Score. The adapter is small, easy to use and reliable. The adapter sells for $95.00 and is available as an add-on accessory to the base Precision Score system. Since 2001, Precision Score has offered their professional electronic scoring systems to customers around the world. The PC-based software has allowed tournament directors to run a more efficient, exciting, and compact tournament, a welcomed alternative to paper scoring. "This is just the first step in a series of steps that will ensure that our customers will continue to benefit from the investments we have made in Precision Score. Customers can expect that when they invest in Precision Score they are getting excellent value." said Sambrook. CONTACT INFORMATION More information and on-line ordering is available from the Precision Score website, http://www.precisionscore.com. Customers may also contact the manufacturer directly: Common Sense Systems, Inc. 18915 142nd Ave. NE, Suite #145 Woodinville, WA 98072, USA Telephone: 425-806-8744 Facsimile: 425-806-8407 Internet: http://www.common-sense.com --__--__-- Message: 13 Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2006 11:10:58 -0700 From: "Ray Terry" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Yu, Won, Wha Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net An excellent recap of our recent thread on Yu, Won and Wha in the most recent edition of the KHF Newsletter. Except this line appears to be a typo: "Even hapkido-in who have attended Doju-nim Ji Han Jae's seminars state that he does focus on them." I believe that should read "does not". Ray ------------------------------------------------- A couple weeks ago an instructor on the martial art email group I belong to inquired about the concepts of Yu, Won, Wha (harmony, circle, and flow). My response to his query sparked one of the best online discussions over Korean martial arts I have seen in years. Therefore, in the hopes of promoting discussion of the art rather than the political banter that so plagues the message boards today, I will reiterate my thoughts and hopefully clarify some of the issues brought up by my fellow hapkido-in. The subject of Yu, Won, Wha has bothered me ever since I first asked my hapkido instructor about them several years ago. When I mentioned the concepts, he just looked at me curiously and indicated he did not understand what I meant. A few years later, I spoke with Korea Hapkido Federation Planning Director Gimm June. He stated the Yu, Won, and Wha principles that so many western hapkido websites proclaim to be fundamentals of the art are actually not a part of hapkido. They are in reality aiki-jujutsu principles someone took from that art and stuck it on their website. From there they spread to the other western hapkido websites so much that it is now impossible to tell where they originated. Here's what I believe: Someone got on the web, decided they would sound official by taking aiki-jujutsu principles and applying them to hapkido. (This to me, in some ways, sounds like applying taekwon-do side kick principles to a Shotokan Karate kick.) In many ways, the Yu, Won, Wha principles are like a rumor that turned into truth. "Almost" being the key word in that last sentence. It is undeniable that these three principles are in our art, as many people who read my posting mentioned. My intention with this article is not to challenge the idea that Yu, Won, Wha are a part of hapkido. However, I do not believe that they are the only ones deserving attention. What about using angles, lowering your center of gravity, and the relaxing of the muscles? I suppose those standards are feeling rather left out in the cold. If you look at the Korean websites you will notice none of them discuss these Yu, Won, or Wha. Of course, you'll have to trust me on this one unless you can read Hangul, but I've seen dozens of Korean hapkido sites and the Yu, Won, and Wha are nowhere to be found. You will find them missing from other English-speaking hapkido authorities, such as the Kido Hui or the Korea Hapkido Federation's site. Even hapkido-in who have attended Doju-nim Ji Han Jae's seminars state that he does focus on them. Yet, many of the hapkido instructors without direct ties to Korean masters swear by them. (Please don't take that as an insult to anyone; I'm just stating a fact as I've seen it.) I have been to numerous dojangs here in Korea, spoken to possibly hundreds of masters, and never once heard them discuss the principles of Yu, Won, or Wha. What is discussed, however, are the different applications of techniques and the various philosophies behind those applications. Each master has their own opinion, and it's truly amazing to watch them execute their individual principles on the mat. This, by the way, is where I'll be when many keyboard warriors are still discussing this article. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest