Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 03:02:10 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 13 #156 - 10 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,100 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Who didn't see this coming? (James DeRuvo) 2. Who didn't see this coming (Hindley) 3. Re: Thou shalt not kill (Christopher Spiller) 4. Re: Re: Thou shalt not kill (Jye nigma) 5. Wha, Won Yu (Todd Miller) 6. Re: Re: Thou shalt not kill (steven riggs) 7. Re: Re: Thou shalt not kill (jakskru) 8. (no subject) (Rudy Timmerman) 9. RE;Bowing (Manuel Maldonado) 10. Re: Wha, Won Yu (Ray) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2006 11:31:06 -0700 (PDT) From: James DeRuvo Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Who didn't see this coming? To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Tim, funny thing about language translation is that words can mean different things. The original translation of "thou shalt not kill" is "thou shalt not commit murder." Quite a different animal. the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net wrote: -- __--__-- Message: 3 From: "tim walker" To: Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2006 12:00:23 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Who didn't see this coming? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Riggs: > Thou shalt not kill. Sounds pretty cut and dried to me. But I'm sure you can find a way to rationalize it. My promise: If y'all keep the discussion to Martial Arts, so will I. Tim Walker --------------------------------- New Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC for low, low rates. --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Hindley" To: Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2006 14:04:58 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Who didn't see this coming Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ray has it right. "Thou shall not MURDER." As for bowing to a master. It is a sign of respect for the knowledge he gives to us and has earned in his search for perfection in the arts after many years of study. Same as a handshake in our country plain and simple. I mean no ill will to anyone. All are entitled to their opinion. I am a God fearing Christian to the soul. Warrior for god and the people that are preyed upon and family. Greg Hindley --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2006 12:26:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Spiller To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Thou shalt not kill Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Tim Walker write: >>Mr. Riggs: <> Thou shalt not kill. Sounds pretty cut and dried to me.<< Going from an inaccurate English translation of ancient Hebrew *can* lead people to make some pretty bad conclusions, like you just did. The word "ratsach" has the primary definition of "murder," not the general sense of "to kill." >>But I'm sure you can find a way to rationalize it.<< If by "rationalize" you mean reading things in context and not from a biased translation, then sure. Your own example of putting forth a position based on your ignorance and seeming hostility towards religion is a *great* example of how to post for the rest of the list. >>My promise: If y'all keep the discussion to Martial Arts, so will I.<< Like it or not, religion is something that pervades every aspect of people's lives. That includes their participation in MA's. People posted several things in this thread that I found disagreeable but I refrained from making snide comments. Perhaps you could give that a try next time. Taekwon, Chris Wherever the Catholic sun doth shine, There's always laughter and good red wine. At least I've always found it so. Benedicamus Domino! -Hilaire Belloc __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2006 13:24:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Thou shalt not kill To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I think what we saw is what alot of people do which is simply read the bible, when in fact the bible says of itself to SEARCH and STUDY the scriptures daily. In that we can see a big difference in the out come of those actions. For instance, if one reads the TKD encyclopedia, they will have an overview of the subject matter, however what would they know if they searched it or studied it daily? I would think new things each time they study it. but you know what, not too many people actually speak the native languages of the bible and many don't use strong's concordance (sp?) so they can only go by what is printed in english. For instance, for the longest time I used to think Jesus turned water into wine the alcoholic beverage...lol. Jye Christopher Spiller wrote: Going from an inaccurate English translation of ancient Hebrew *can* lead people to make some pretty bad conclusions, like you just did. The word "ratsach" has the primary definition of "murder," not the general sense of "to kill." --------------------------------- How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger’s low PC-to-Phone call rates. --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Todd Miller" To: Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2006 18:26:39 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Wha, Won Yu Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net If you go to www.jungkikwan.com You will see that the principles of Wha Won Yu are talked about and it is my understanding that Doju Nim Choi, Yong Sul taught these concepts. Sincerely, Todd Miller Jungki Kwan Hapkido & Kuhapdo --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2006 15:55:40 -0700 (PDT) From: steven riggs Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Thou shalt not kill To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I have read some of the follow up comments on this subject and perhaps it is me but I have become confused at either the disagreement or perhaps what someone thought I said or meant. When I was interviewed and the question asked had to do with deadly force as a police officer. That would not be murder thru the laws of the land or the laws of God as it is not murder. In the Bible soldiers were allowed to take lives without it being wrong, there is an example in the gospels about a man breaking into your home and if that man dies thru you defending yourself then you are not held accountable for his death. There are marks put in and out of the letter so again I am unsure what is addressed at me. I have not been biased, nor rationalized or used an inaccurate translation. As I spent 5 years in Bible College studying God's word I would say I am hostile towards religion. I have a Christ centered martial arts program that we use to encourage young people with the ethics and morals from the Bible to live better lives, love God and their neighbor as themselves. I would hope that most would agree with me that regardless of which church you went to if we all loved our neighbors more there would be less crime and fewer wars. God does pervade my life if the word pervade is to be used. However all of my students and parents know about that and sign up because they too wish to mix their martial arts and their study of God. I don't require it of any one else nor of any one in the class and no one is wrong for disagreeing with me. I just choose to do it my way and invite others to join me. Christopher Spiller wrote: Tim Walker write: >>Mr. Riggs: > Thou shalt not kill. Sounds pretty cut and dried to me.<< Going from an inaccurate English translation of ancient Hebrew *can* lead people to make some pretty bad conclusions, like you just did. The word "ratsach" has the primary definition of "murder," not the general sense of "to kill." >>But I'm sure you can find a way to rationalize it.<< If by "rationalize" you mean reading things in context and not from a biased translation, then sure. Your own example of putting forth a position based on your ignorance and seeming hostility towards religion is a *great* example of how to post for the rest of the list. >>My promise: If y'all keep the discussion to Martial Arts, so will I.<< Like it or not, religion is something that pervades every aspect of people's lives. That includes their participation in MA's. People posted several things in this thread that I found disagreeable but I refrained from making snide comments. Perhaps you could give that a try next time. Taekwon, Chris Wherever the Catholic sun doth shine, There's always laughter and good red wine. At least I've always found it so. Benedicamus Domino! -Hilaire Belloc __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --------------------------------- Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min. --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "jakskru" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Thou shalt not kill Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2006 20:38:57 -0400 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net this religious content is really getting quite boorish.... on another note, i have recently begun to learn jan bong, and i find that everytime i get my hands on anything that resembles a staff, i am grabbing it and twirling it around...it is really becoming quite consuming....has this ever happened to anyone else? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jye nigma" To: Sent: Sunday, April 02, 2006 4:24 PM Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Thou shalt not kill > I think what we saw is what alot of people do which is simply read the bible, when in fact the bible says of itself to SEARCH and STUDY the scriptures daily. --__--__-- Message: 8 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Rudy Timmerman Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2006 23:00:40 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] (no subject) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Master Hilland writes: > In modern times (these days instead of the way-back-machine), I am > reminded > of Master Timmerman. I really don't think I have ever seen the man bow > standing. Hello Jere: That is probably because EVERY time you have seen me bow, I had/have the utmost respect for those in attendance. I simply do not bow to anyone I do not respect, because I intensely dislike people who "pretend" to pay respect and don't really mean it. Rudy --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Manuel Maldonado" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2006 18:10:35 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE;Bowing Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Here's the way I see it... Koreans dont shake hands thusfore the bow is used. another thing the word "An Jo" means sit or sit down... The bow from the seated psition in Males is to respect a senior such as a father, father in law ect, as for women are concerned they bow slowly from a standing position with their arms over their head and hands facing palm down with the left palm over the right and the head is bowed towards the floor they bow very slowly untill they assume a seated position; this is also for her father and thease bows are used maybe 3 to 4 times a year and when one asks for the daughter's hand in marriage. You are studing Taekwon-Do and if your instructor decides to share this knowledge with you appreciate it... dont bring in this Im a Christian stuff in it because that has nothing to do with the price of tea in China folks please come on Im sure that if Jesus himself trained in MA he wouldnt have a problem with the bow. He did say give Ceasars what is Ceasars. Its just a sport/art ect as long as it dosnt interfere with God or your religion I dont see anything wrong with it. M.K. Maldonado --__--__-- Message: 10 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Wha, Won Yu To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2006 20:52:35 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > If you go to www.jungkikwan.com The Korean and English versions of the above seems to be two different sites instead of localized versions of one site. ??? Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest