Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2006 03:02:14 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 13 #157 - 15 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,100 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Dancing HKD (Klaas Barends) 2. Eyes Wide Open (rwood) 3. Cane (rwood) 4. Re: Mr. Riggs' post (Christopher Spiller) 5. Jang Bong (Curt McCauley) 6. Bowing from Master Dan (Dan Scholten) 7. bowing/respect (Robert Martin) 8. bowing (dave weller) 9. Re: Thou shalt not kill (Stovall, Craig) 10. Thou shalt not post thy honest thoughts (tim walker) 11. Re: Gun Disarms (WTSDA Bruce) 12. RE: Re: Thou shalt not kill (michael tomlinson) 13. Re: Re: Thou shalt not kill (Jye nigma) 14. Taekwondo: SportAccord 2006 (Ray) 15. The Religion Posts (Luther Veuleman) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Klaas Barends Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 09:45:38 +0200 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Dancing HKD Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > I also enjoyed it and was really impressed with some of the parts. > The > aerial breakfalls were very impressive. It was actually amazing how > softly some of those guys were landing. Very nice. I did kind of > feel > for the one guy...maybe he was having an off night, but he kept > hitting > the mat pretty hard. Maybe that was his intention :-) > I'm also curious about the dance portion. Not my cup of tea, but an > interesting take on things, nonetheless. There are a few takes on the dancing and from what I heard its development has gone through a few stages. It is no secret that Myung Jae Nam had a good relation with the Japanese Aikikai during the seventies and at some point was the official representative for aikido in Korea. From what I heard (I wasn't there, so I can't know) at some point he had to make a decision, continue with hapkido or aikido. It probably isn't a secret that Koreans hate the Japanese even more than Dutch people hated the Germans after the war (or during a soccer match) so continuing with aikido didn't seem an option. Myung Jae Nam decided to start his own style, hapkido with strong aikido influences. Which later became known as hankido. So the development of hankido started somewhere in the seventies (I don't have exact dates) but wasn't made officially public until the 1st HKD Games in 1990 The HAN in hankido is the same at the HAN in Hankuk (the word South Koreans use for their country). Myung Jae Nam wanted his art to be something for the people of Korea, something they could be proud of. He also wanted it to be something for everyone, and this means that everyone should be able to practice. Myung Jae Nam in spare time was a dancer (together with his wife) and this is how he got the idea to come up with a dancing version. It makes it easier to practice, and especially to give people a learning tool for the three HKD principles (Yes, the principles do exist in IHF style HKD and are actually quite important. (probably due to the strong aikido connection)) Nowadays a lot of people think that 'dancing hkd' is only there to make things look nice and just as an easy practicing tool for people. This is not true. Dancing HKD should be used as a tool to explore the three principles of Hwa, Won and Yu. Although you usually will see dancing hkd be demonstrated in a soft and gentle manner, it can also be (and should be) practiced with much sharper turns. You can dance together, but in dancing hkd you can make your partner dance. You guide your partner. Dancing HKD never got much attention and isn't widely practiced. A small clip of Myung Jae Nam dancing with his daughter can be found at: http://www.hapkido.nl/index.php?mode=movie -- kind regards, Klaas Barends www.webmind.nl --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "rwood" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 07:46:53 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Eyes Wide Open Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Walker, The actual translation is MURDER to KILL. Yes, there is a difference. Murder is tied to greed (murdering for money or position) and selfishness (protection from being found out in another crime, to remove someone from the situation for you benefit.). Christians are allowed to act in defense of self, family, country, and property. After all those attempting to harm or deprive them of any of the above are engaged in criminal behavior. As martial artist our training is rooted in defending those who cannot defend themselves. As to taking it off digest, you posted your opinions and views here. I did not agree with them; however I did not ask you to stop voicing them in this forum simply because I don’t like them. IHS, Rob He who ignores disciple comes to poverty and shame, but whoever heeds correction is honored. Proverbs 13:18 --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "rwood" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 08:21:16 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Cane Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I am studying cane. I find that everything I pick I grip like a cane and test it for feel and balance. IHS, Rob He who ignores disciple comes to poverty and shame, but whoever heeds correction is honored. Proverbs 13:18 --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 08:32:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Spiller To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Mr. Riggs' post Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Steven Riggs said: "I have read some of the follow up comments on this subject and perhaps it is me but I have become confused at either the disagreement or perhaps what someone thought I said or meant. When I was interviewed and the question asked had to do with deadly force as a police officer. That would not be murder thru the laws of the land or the laws of God as it is not murder. In the Bible soldiers were allowed to take lives without it being wrong, there is an example in the gospels about a man breaking into your home and if that man dies thru you defending yourself then you are not held accountable for his death. There are marks put in and out of the letter so again I am unsure what is addressed at me. I have not been biased, nor rationalized or used an inaccurate translation. As I spent 5 years in Bible College studying God's word I would say I am hostile towards religion." I just want to publically state that I am sorry for referring to Mr. Riggs in my previous posting as being hostile to religion. While I was replying to something that Mr. Riggs had said, the poster I was referring to as being "hostile" was anotehr gentleman and I would like to offer my public apologies to Mr. Riggs. Taekwon, Chris Wherever the Catholic sun doth shine, There's always laughter and good red wine. At least I've always found it so. Benedicamus Domino! -Hilaire Belloc __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Curt McCauley" To: Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 08:33:10 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] Jang Bong Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jang Bong, Joong Bong or Dan Bong, They are all possibly man's earliest weapon besides a stone. Lots of fun, but they hurt when you make a mistake. I had an instructor ask if we knew why the Koreans called the staff a "Bong", and when no one could answer, he said "because that's the sound it makes when it hits your head" Love the Staff, and yes garden tools, mops, and brooms are all good practice tools. Curt McCauley Quote: on another note, i have recently begun to learn jan bong, and i find that everytime i get my hands on anything that resembles a staff, i am grabbing it and twirling it around...it is really becoming quite consuming....has this ever happened to anyone else? --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 08:42:44 -0800 From: Dan Scholten To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Bowing from Master Dan Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bowing was always taught to me as respect for rank same as a salute even if no one is present then you bow to the flags or a direction in the Do Jang that represents higher rank, judges, or master instructors ect. How to bow however was explained to me related to when men still carried swords and that a proper respectful bow was eyes and face down exposing the back of your neck. This was making your self exposed to a blow to the back of the neck by his sword admitting that he had the power of life and death over you. This respect was required as well as never turning your back to the master or stepping forward when finishing a movement you always step back or it becomes a challenge to fight. --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 10:41:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Martin To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] bowing/respect Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Master Timmerman, Would you agree that "respect" and "courtesy" are two different things? I may not respect someone but because of the art I study I owe that person courtesy. In fact don't I owe everyone courtesy? Robert Martin Message: 8 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Rudy Timmerman Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2006 23:00:40 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] (no subject) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Master Hilland writes: > In modern times (these days instead of the way-back-machine), I am > reminded > of Master Timmerman. I really don't think I have ever seen the man bow > standing. Hello Jere: That is probably because EVERY time you have seen me bow, I had/have the utmost respect for those in attendance. I simply do not bow to anyone I do not respect, because I intensely dislike people who "pretend" to pay respect and don't really mean it. Rudy --__--__-- Message: 8 From: dave weller Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 15:00:58 -0500 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] bowing Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr Wood wrote these interesting items: > From: "rwood" > Date: March 31, 2006 10:03:31 AM CST > To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Subject: [The_Dojang] Bowing > Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > > . > > Second; it is NOT my book, his book, or her book. It is the > Bible, God’s Holy Word. The Bible is a guide to all > people, in all places on how we should treat one another and > how to develop a right relationship with God. > > > Everyone is entitled to your opinion and I would never > restrict anyone’s ability to express your opinion; however > just because you believe “it” doesn’t make “it” > true. > > Here is where the nail got struck squarely on the head. Like ANYthing else, religion included, beliefs do not necessarily equal reality. I could make the statement that some other religious text is "the word" and chastise those who do not think it so, but my saying it does not make it true. No matter how strongly I believe I cannot reshape reality into something it is not. Lets take this into martial arts. There are a multitude of systems, styles and etc. They all have one goal: Defeat your enemy. All go about it in various ways, all different. A xxxDO proponent will insist his way is the only way, while the dude from yyyDO thinks xxx has all the basic motion wrong and will get his ass stomped "in the street". Both are equally sure that their system is "the way". One of them HAS to be wrong for the other to be right. Proponents from both sides will raise armies to defend the honor of "the way". When the battle is over, all that remains are dead bodies and 2 armies that still think they are fighting for the "one true way". The defeated army will use their defeat as a battle cry for their followers, the winners will use victory as their proof of righteousness. I'm sure few will see my point, some will chastise, others will praise. But, like my Mom always said, "You kids fight it out amongst yourselves, I have to get supper started". Have a groovy day, dave weller --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 15:57:55 -0500 From: "Stovall, Craig" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Thou shalt not kill Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <<>> Amen. <<>> Yes, it happened to me when I took up Filipino Martial Arts. My obsession was more along the lines of single and double stick, however. So, every time I picked up something around the size of a stick I'd be stroking figure-8's in the air, or twirling the damned thing. Now that I'm obsessed with grappling I have to restrain myself from going into a flying armbar every time I shake hands with someone. "Craig, this is our new VP of finance...OH MY GOD...what are you...SOMEBODY CALL 911!!!" --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "tim walker" To: Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 18:31:06 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Thou shalt not post thy honest thoughts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <> Oooh. That wasn't a snide comment, though, was it? I offered you an opportunity to respond to me privately, shame you couldn't show me that small respect. My bad for not being able to read/understand ancient Hebrew. Only operating on the inaccuracies foisted on me by organized religion. Ray, I apologize for opening up this can of worms. Everyone else, please pound me privately off the digest. Tim "O Lord, please protect me from thy followers." --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "WTSDA Bruce" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Gun Disarms Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 18:45:41 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net A gun disarm is a dynamic event, many many factors can come into play. If the person performing the disarm is able to grab the slide (semi-auto pistol), if the weapon discharges there might be a malfunction. If the empty casing does not eject properly, the re-loading cycle may be disrupted. If the weapon is a revolver, and the hammer is cocked, the first round will discharge. If the cylinder can be locked up during the disarm, the next round will be hard to pull the trigger again. A lot of IF'S. The critical points to a disarm is get out of the way of the bullets potential path (AKA in front of the gun), control the weapon and keep the user from re-targeting. Strip the gun out of the gun holders hand, usually attacking the weakest part of the grip, the thumb.. The main issue to remember is not to give up, never give up. Eye gouges, breaking fingers, knife strikes to throat, there are no rules here...........I take that back the only rule is to survive. I have attached a link to an example of not giving up. At about 01:48:20 the bad guy's gun drops out of his waistband at about 01:48:26 the bad guy discharges his gun, at 01:49:33 the LEO ends the attempt to take his life. http://www.channelcincinnati.com/video/7294919/index.html ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cayson, Clint" To: Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2006 9:30 AM Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Gun Disarms > Just one question. How long will it take to "muzzle" (in terms of > timing) a gun and pointing the gun to the person holding than squeezing > a trigger? Because as the first shot comes out, the next bullet will > instantly positioned. > > All in all, I find this topic very interesting. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: michael tomlinson [mailto:tomlinson_michael@hotmail.com] > Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2006 7:19 AM > To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Gun Disarms > > That is technique number one that I learned from Hal Whalen....it is a > good > disarm...one thing we try to do is get the muzzle pointing up as soon as > > possible so the shot "if it happens, and probably will", doesn't go > downrange and nail someone...as we finish the motion we try to get the > muzzle pointing back on the person holding the gun...but as Ray > stated...it > depends on some other factors such as body positon..which hand etc..... > > > Michael Tomlinson > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 12 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: Thou shalt not kill Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2006 02:19:42 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Craig writes:: Now that I'm obsessed with grappling I have to restrain myself from going into a flying armbar every time I shake hands with someone. "Craig, this is our new VP of finance...OH MY GOD...what are you...SOMEBODY CALL 911!!!">>> Dude that is a sure sign you are ate up with this stuff....I know because I also resemble these remarks.....people that know what I do and are my friends shake my hand and right before we touch they all say "hey don't throw me or anything".....yep they know me....ha ha....sometimes I just get them in a quick firemans carry and run around with them on my shoulders screaming like a scalded banshee.....lots of fun...and gets everyone cracking up.....only my smaller friends mind you... Michael Tomlinson --__--__-- Message: 13 Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 19:32:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Thou shalt not kill To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Same here, for some reason when I pick up a broom, it becomes a monk's spade....and it's master killer all over again...lol. lately when I cook, I grab a butcher knife and something else (big spoon) and do figure 8s as well...lol. Jye "Stovall, Craig" wrote: Yes, it happened to me when I took up Filipino Martial Arts. My obsession was more along the lines of single and double stick, however. So, every time I picked up something around the size of a stick I'd be stroking figure-8's in the air, or twirling the damned thing. --------------------------------- Blab-away for as little as 1˘/min. Make PC-to-Phone Calls using Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. --__--__-- Message: 14 From: Ray To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 21:34:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] Taekwondo: SportAccord 2006 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net http://theseoultimes.com/ST/?url=/ST/db/read.php?idx=3200 Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 15 Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 20:42:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Luther Veuleman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] The Religion Posts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dojang, This has very little to do with KMA. Sorry Ray. Ok. I'm gonna go out on a limb here. I'm opening myself up for all kinda things, but let me first off say, I am a Christian. I wasn't raised in the church. My parents were good people, but busy people, and Sunday was their day for each other and the house work I suppose. In the summers when I was a kid, I went to Bible Camps (baptist) with friends, that was my only chance really. When I met the woman who would become my wife, her parents were VERY church going people, so I got the chance/opportunity to go more frequently with them (methodist), and the courage to continue more now, though not as much as I'd like. I have gotten O SO VERY BRIEF exposure to some of those who follow the Catholic religion through one of my students wife, and some of the people who were in my fraternity in college, and the first girl I dated in college, which brings me to my whole point/question here. Someone posted about SEARCH AND STUDY the work of the bible ( I think Jye), but dating the girl last mentioned, she was enrolled in the Scholars College, and they were teaching some interpretation material focusing on the bible in one of their classes, and she had all these problems with it, saying she was always taught in church to never interpret the bible. In my opinion, Search and Study is the same thing, and I don't see the problem with that so much. Is that maybe a catholic thing? Maybe she was just raised strictly or something. I'm very ignorant on this WHOLE subject, as stated in the first paragraph. About 3 years ago, I got in this HUGE pooping match here on the digest, which I take majority blame for. I should have gone about it a seperate route. I think we were talking about the same thing, or a variance. There was the GM Sell people that were doing Chung Do Kwan Tae Kwon Do, of course mixing religion and TKD as a type of ministry, and they are also doing the more modernized-all Korean forms. The people I worked out with are of the same lineage, tracing back to the CDK gym, and they were doing the old pyong an forms and so on. My group also made it a very huge point to not mix the sport/art and the gospel. So to say, back then, that I didn't like mixing Martial Arts and Jesus, I think I probably bashed the Sell people and their followers by mentioning them, then the pooping match began with one of their followers who was a list member. I was also saying that it was crappy they were doing the newer forms, instead of keeping the old stuff. I still like the older stuff very much better, but I know I probably worded things abraisively. Hey, I can admit when I'm wrong here. :) But, my point still doesn't change, even if I was more versed on religion, I don't like the mixing of the two. That doesn't mean burn down those Dojangs/Dojos, I = ME don't like it. I think I'm so gung-ho on stuff, that if I was to try and incorporate it in my curriculum, It would be the crusades or something. "O...you no like Jesus....Tonight class we are doing Spin hook kicks with partner....Jesus hater, I'm going to use your head for my target".....okay maybe not that bad, but you get the idea. I've seen some neat usage on religion in martial arts programs, Patches for learned verses, verses that are required for belt rank along with regular MA movements, even the Keichu Ryu system is baised off the hopes that students will find the gospel of Jesus, and their patch alludes to the holy trinity, by having three of the yin yang figures in stead of two, its really neat. Again, I am not bashing, I just don't like it. Finally, (sorry this is so long) the list seems to agree that bow is for martial arts respect, and nobody's heart is in it for religion. Ya'll don't harp on this subject too long, or it might grow into something that becomes bashing of each other for various reasons, which I know from my limited religion studies, is definitly not loving your neighbor. Charlie Veuleman http://www.TSDofLA.com http://www.cafepress.com/tsdofla --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest