Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2006 03:02:09 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 13 #158 - 13 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,100 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: The Religion Posts (randyd1952@aol.com) 2. Open Minds (rwood) 3. respect v/s courtesy (Rudy Timmerman) 4. Reply to Dan (Frank Clay) 5. Re: The Religion Posts (Jye nigma) 6. Re: The Religion Posts (Ray) 7. Re: Thou shalt not post thy honest thoughts (Christopher Spiller) 8. Re: Cane (dugy01) 9. Korean Studies summer program in Taegu City (Ray) 10. ICF Upcoming Seminars (Chosondo@aol.com) 11. Korean Visitors to China Kidnapped? (Ray Terry) 12. Kukkiwon website updated (Ray Terry) 13. Great family fun! (Ray) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2006 02:37:35 -0400 From: randyd1952@aol.com Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] The Religion Posts To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear fellow students, I have only recently joined the dojang and was mildly disconcerted to find that religion is such a oft-discussed topic here. (I should not have been surprised, however, since spirituality is also one of my passions!) Nevertheless, I agree with Mr. Veuleman that we can lose perspective by bringing so many of our personal beliefs into this arena. The roots of TKD are Buddhism and Confucianism. Those of us who are Christian surely know that from even a rudimentary understanding of this art. (General Choi claimed God changed his name to Tae Kwon Do. Furthermore, for the Hapkidoists --derived from Aikido??-- O Sensei claimed God spoke to him several times and delivered the message of peace and harmony through Aikido. I'm not sure if either was speaking metaphorically or not -- it does not seem so.) It is probably a testament to the dynamism of our arts that we may confuse the sense of awe and power that we feel working within us and that we also see in other students as the divine itself. I believe it is only an echo of the truly divine -- others, including those two great founders mentioned above of schools or ways-- may see it as part of the Spirit of God. It surely must be a personal decision. On a final note (I am a Christian), Jesus' own followers were called the Way (hence, Do) and only later "Christians." In TKD the first tenet is courtesy. Ahn Young Hee Kah Say Yo (May you go in peace). Doc -----Original Message----- From: Luther Veuleman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sent: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 20:42:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] The Religion Posts Dojang, This has very little to do with KMA. Sorry Ray. Ok. I'm gonna go out on a limb here. I'm opening myself up for all kinda things, but let me first off say, I am a Christian. I wasn't raised in the church. My parents were good people, but busy people, and Sunday was their day for each other and the house work I suppose. In the summers when I was a kid, I went to Bible Camps (baptist) with friends, that was my only chance really. When I met the woman who would become my wife, her parents were VERY church going people, so I got the chance/opportunity to go more frequently with them (methodist), and the courage to continue more now, though not as much as I'd like. I have gotten O SO VERY BRIEF exposure to some of those who follow the Catholic religion through one of my students wife, and some of the people who were in my fraternity in college, and the first girl I dated in college, which brings me to my whole point/question here. Someone posted about SEARCH AND STUDY the work of the bible ( I think Jye), but dating the girl last mentioned, she was enrolled in the Scholars College, and they were teaching some interpretation material focusing on the bible in one of their classes, and she had all these problems with it, saying she was always taught in church to never interpret the bible. In my opinion, Search and Study is the same thing, and I don't see the problem with that so much. Is that maybe a catholic thing? Maybe she was just raised strictly or something. I'm very ignorant on this WHOLE subject, as stated in the first paragraph. About 3 years ago, I got in this HUGE pooping match here on the digest, which I take majority blame for. I should have gone about it a seperate route. I think we were talking about the same thing, or a variance. There was the GM Sell people that were doing Chung Do Kwan Tae Kwon Do, of course mixing religion and TKD as a type of ministry, and they are also doing the more modernized-all Korean forms. The people I worked out with are of the same lineage, tracing back to the CDK gym, and they were doing the old pyong an forms and so on. My group also made it a very huge point to not mix the sport/art and the gospel. So to say, back then, that I didn't like mixing Martial Arts and Jesus, I think I probably bashed the Sell people and their followers by mentioning them, then the pooping match began with one of their followers who was a list member. I was also saying that it was crappy they were doing the newer forms, instead of keeping the old stuff. I still like the older stuff very much better, but I know I probably worded things abraisively. Hey, I can admit when I'm wrong here. :) But, my point still doesn't change, even if I was more versed on religion, I don't like the mixing of the two. That doesn't mean burn down those Dojangs/Dojos, I = ME don't like it. I think I'm so gung-ho on stuff, that if I was to try and incorporate it in my curriculum, It would be the crusades or something. "O...you no like Jesus....Tonight class we are doing Spin hook kicks with partner....Jesus hater, I'm going to use your head for my target".....okay maybe not that bad, but you get the idea. I've seen some neat usage on religion in martial arts programs, Patches for learned verses, verses that are required for belt rank along with regular MA movements, even the Keichu Ryu system is baised off the hopes that students will find the gospel of Jesus, and their patch alludes to the holy trinity, by having three of the yin yang figures in stead of two, its really neat. Again, I am not bashing, I just don't like it. Finally, (sorry this is so long) the list seems to agree that bow is for martial arts respect, and nobody's heart is in it for religion. Ya'll don't harp on this subject too long, or it might grow into something that becomes bashing of each other for various reasons, which I know from my limited religion studies, is definitly not loving your neighbor. Charlie Veuleman http://www.TSDofLA.com http://www.cafepress.com/tsdofla _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "rwood" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2006 07:44:11 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Open Minds Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Weller, I agree. Taking the discussion away from religion; as a Taekwondo stylist I get the look of “your being hoodwinked” when I enter into a conversation regarding self-defense. Also the “oh Taekwondo, the sport” phase comes out a lot. Taekwondo is a viable self defense system. I train hard and often. But there are those who belong to xxxDo and yyyDo that will never be convinced that a Taekwondo stylist is a “real” martial artist. I just shrug and marvel at the arrogance and close mindedness. IHS, Rob He who ignores disciple comes to poverty and shame, but whoever heeds correction is honored. Proverbs 13:18 --__--__-- Message: 3 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Rudy Timmerman Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2006 09:02:27 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] respect v/s courtesy Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Robert writes: > Would you agree that "respect" and "courtesy" are two different > things? > > I may not respect someone but because of the art I study I owe that > person courtesy. In fact don't I owe everyone courtesy? > > Robert Martin Hello Robert: Yes, agree that courtesy and respect are different things, and courtesy should be honored in the martial arts Dojang. So, I bow formally to those whom I respect, to others I bow standing and (because I am usually the older one lol) never lower than they bow. To be honest, this seldom happens, because I generally avoid being with people I dislike. Life is short, and I prefer to spend it with people I like and love. Rudy --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Frank Clay" To: Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2006 08:08:45 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Reply to Dan Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dan, You said "How to bow however was explained to me related to when men still carried swords and that a proper respectful bow was eyes and face down exposing the back of your neck. This was making your self exposed to a blow to the back of the neck by his sword admitting that he had the power of life and death over you." This would not exactly be true. IF this occurred it would be more a sign of trust than respect. Musashi was well-respected but I doubt too many willingly presented their necks and backs to him (not that it mattered much in the end). Trust and respect are two different entities. On a side note, why refer to yourself as Master Dan? Master is something that comes from within and is a title bestowed by your peers and seniors. Neither rank nor a certificate truly makes one a master. Not being critical, just making a point. Once earned it also cannot be removed, though there are some misguided people who seem to think otherwise. f. --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2006 07:29:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] The Religion Posts To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Well I see no problem with not wanting to have to learn religion with a martial art. For instance, I don't want to have to learn buddism(sp?) to learn shaolin kung fu, I just want the martial art training. and somewhere I'm sure a buddist may not want to lern christianity in order to lern boxing. But here's a spin on things anyhow...the mixing of martial arts and religion as far as christianity is concerned is mixing the world with the church and we know what the bible says about doing that. If I'm gonna keep it real with you, a true christian who really studies God's word and lives it, is not afraid to die AT ALL because although many years may pass, their next concious thought is being with Christ (it will seem like seconds to them....king David has been dead for what 3000 years or so but when Christ returns it'll be like he was dead for a second!) Now the next thing is also that God protects his people so in reality, a christian doesn't really need to study a martial art. Let me put it in perspective...a man once told me that if someone tried to hurt him, he wouldn't try to defend himself because God will defend him, but if someone tried to hurt his family he would defend his family because he is a father and a father not only provides but protects his family. Now when you consider what he said nd break it down, you'll see that what he said was basically I'm not going to defend myself for my own selfish reason, but I will protect others; help others. Exactly how Christ wants us to be in many ways, to be selfless, and focus on helping others and in return you'll get what you need from God. This is a really brief version if you'd like a longer version hit me up offline. *But here is something to think about for a christian. We understand that we have no control over our lives right? So why do we think defending ourselves will protect us? IF we're in a scenario where someone attacks us with a knife and we defend ourselves and beat the attacker nd he gets put in jail, was that really us saving ourselves? or was it all in God's plan to not have you die then and there and that way? Now I believe this, we can't control our death, nor other people BUT God can use us and our skill to be used as a vessel to help others. Like if ray was going to kill me and it was not Gods will that I die. So he uses jo billy bob as a vessel to protect me with whatever gifts, talent or skill joe billy bob has. hope that makes sense. I just don't agree with mixing church with the world...be in the world but not of it. Jye Jye Luther Veuleman wrote: Dojang, This has very little to do with KMA. Sorry Ray. Ok. I'm gonna go out on a limb here. I'm opening myself up for all kinda things, but let me first off say, I am a Christian. I wasn't raised in the church. My parents were good people, but busy people, and Sunday was their day for each other and the house work I suppose. In the summers when I was a kid, I went to Bible Camps (baptist) with friends, that was my only chance really. When I met the woman who would become my wife, her parents were VERY church going people, so I got the chance/opportunity to go more frequently with them (methodist), and the courage to continue more now, though not as much as I'd like. I have gotten O SO VERY BRIEF exposure to some of those who follow the Catholic religion through one of my students wife, and some of the people who were in my fraternity in college, and the first girl I dated in college, which brings me to my whole point/question here. --------------------------------- How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger’s low PC-to-Phone call rates. --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] The Religion Posts To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2006 09:03:56 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > I have only recently joined the dojang and was mildly disconcerted to > find that religion is such a oft-discussed topic here. Religion is a seldom discussed topic here, which is probably a good thing since I'm sure there are a great many religion forums for such discussion. Please, no more folks. Back to KMA. Thanks. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2006 09:12:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Spiller To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Thou shalt not post thy honest thoughts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Tim Walker said: <> >Oooh. That wasn't a snide comment, though, was it?< Not really. It was an honest bit of advice. >I offered you an opportunity to respond to me privately, shame you couldn't show me that small respect.< You made the offer after leveling insulting comments on a public talk list. Shame that you wouldn't want people to actually address public comments publically. I'd be more than happy to talk about this privately if you wish. Simply e-mail me. But a public comments deserves a public response, imho. >My bad for not being able to read/understand ancient Hebrew.< To my knowledge Ray doesn't read Hebrew either. Seems like he handled it with little problem, as did other members on the list. Really, the information is readily available through limited research to anyone who's interested. >Only operating on the inaccuracies foisted on me by organized religion.< I'm glad you're desisting from your snide comments and wouldn't think of simply making statements so general as to be meaningless. I am a follower of an organized religion and have been quite aware of the linguistic nuance in this issue for quite a long time. >Tim "O Lord, please protect me from thy followers."< Another great example of not making snide comments, sir. Congratulations. Taekwon, Chris Wherever the Catholic sun doth shine, There's always laughter and good red wine. At least I've always found it so. Benedicamus Domino! -Hilaire Belloc __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "dugy01" To: Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2006 12:41:28 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Cane Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I am also studying the cane. I have purchased the cane master novice course and the 2 videso that come with it are awesome. The exercise is great as it eliminates the need for buying other more expensive workout equpment. Also you can carry the exercise band (mine is red), around also and work out in hotel rooms, etc, easily without having to carry around your BOWMAN. Are you doing the Cane Masters or another ? Good luck with it. DougM - just the facts - Message: 3 From: "rwood" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 08:21:16 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Cane Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I am studying cane. I find that everything I pick I grip like a cane and test it for feel and balance. IHS, Rob He who ignores disciple comes to poverty and shame, but whoever heeds correction is honored. Proverbs 13:18 -- __--__-- --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Ray To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2006 11:08:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] Korean Studies summer program in Taegu City Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Forwarding... A good city for also furthering your study of Hapkido. Ray ------------------------------------------- KEIMYUNG INT'L SUMMER ACADEMY IN KOREAN STUDIES Keimyung University, located in Daegu, South Korea, is offering a six-week summer academy in Korean Studies. The academy is aimed at undergraduate students who want to make use of the summer vacation to take Korea-related foundation courses. It is open to all majors, and is especially suited to those who want to integrate aspects of Korean Studies into their major studies, or satisfy their personal interest in Korea. A 50% tuition fee reduction is available for Korean Studies students recommended by their department heads. All the courses offer critical introductions to subjects such as Korean history, religions, literature, economy, language, society, and art, and are taught in English by experts in these fields. Students can choose up to three courses, worth nine credits, including one language unit, either Introductory Korean or Advanced Korean. Besides the main academic program, there are also many cultural activities and field trips scheduled. The dates for the academy are July 3 to August 12, 2006. Although the final application deadline is May 31, please try to get applications in as early as possible, so that we can guarantee a place. For more information, including the full course list and application details, see http://www.kisaks.com, or contact kisaks@kmu.ac.kr. Sem Vermeersch director, KISAKS --__--__-- Message: 10 From: Chosondo@aol.com Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2006 14:44:01 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] ICF Upcoming Seminars Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello DDers: I ask you forebearance in plugging my upcoming seminars and workshops. I extend a warm welcome to all DDers to attend my worhsops and seminars. I have often extended invitations and no one has yet accept and show up. You might find that spending a few hours on the mat with me and members of the ICF may not be such a bad thing. The following is our projected schedule: May 12 - 14: Choson Kwon Bup, Black Belt Academy, Holden, MA June (Date TBA): Hapkido (Yu Shin Kwan), American Acad, of Korean Martial Education, Downers Grove, IL July 28 - 30: Hapkido (Yu Shin Kwan), Combined seminar with the Raleigh Inst. Of Martial Arts, Apex Yong Mu Do Program, Kido Kwan, Raleigh, NC October 20 - 22: ICF Martial Arts Symposium & Awards Banquet Please feel free to contact me for more information. Thank you. Ian A. Cyrus, Headmaster International Chosondo Federation Choson Kwon Bup - Hapkido - Taekwondo 7252 Valley Ave Philadelphia, PA 19128 215-483-5057, www.chosondo.com chosondo@aol.com --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2006 16:23:27 -0700 From: "Ray Terry" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Korean Visitors to China Kidnapped? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Korean Visitors to China Kidnapped? APRIL 05, 2006 02:59 The Dong-A Ilbo The police are investigating reports that members of a religious organization visiting China have being have been kidnapped by unknown assailants. The Mapo police in Seoul revealed on April 4, "We received a report on April 3 stating that 16 people including Taekwondo coach Kim (28, female) were locked up on March 29 in the city of Dalian." According to the police, Kim called her mother Jeong (52) on April 3 at around 7:25 p.m. and said, "The whole group has been held hostage. Help us come home." They reportedly left Incheon International Airport at 8:00 p.m. on March 28 for the purpose of promoting Taekwondo and missionary work, and arrived a day later at Dalian on the morning of March 29 but were abducted by unidentified people. To her mother Jeong, Kim said, "I've escaped to Xiaonyang with Jang (27, female) and will take the plane home arriving on the morning of April 4," but never showed up. The police said that the women argued with two unidentified men at Xiaonyang Airport before being dragged off to be interrogated by the public commissioners. The police have reported this incident to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade and are on the lookout for the other 14 members. The religious organization responded, "We believe the group had differences of opinion. We don't think they've been kidnapped and imprisoned." --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2006 20:50:32 -0700 From: "Ray Terry" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Kukkiwon website updated Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net New URL for English side and updated look. http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/english/index.jsp --__--__-- Message: 13 From: Ray To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2006 21:25:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] Great family fun! Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Great family fun! http://www.whipboxing.com/ Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest