Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2006 14:42:21 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 13 #162 - 14 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,100 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Cloudy History (Joseph Cheavens) 2. Thanks for the Info (rwood) 3. Rogge Urges Taekwondo Reform (Ray Terry) 4. RE: Cloudy History (Erik Brann) 5. Re: Cloudy History (Ray) 6. Re: Cloudy History (Ray) 7. Re: Cloudy History (Joseph Cheavens) 8. Re: Cloudy History (Joseph Cheavens) 9. RE: Cloudy History (Joseph Cheavens) 10. 10th Degree Belt (Calvin Berlin) 11. RE: 10th Degree Belt (Joseph Cheavens) 12. Re: Bowing from Master Dan (Raymond Navarro) 13. listen up (Jye nigma) 14. Seoul in 1946 (Ray) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Joseph Cheavens" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Cloudy History Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2006 07:49:38 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Yoon Byung-in was 5th Dan in Shotokan. Yun Kwei-byung, the founder of Ji Do Kwan, was 7th Dan in Shudokan. Of course, since Ji Do Kwan was the successor to the Chosun Yunmookwan, I guess you could say he didn't really found the kwan so much as he renamed it.   Joe Cheavens -------------------------------------------------------------------- From:  Ray Reply-To:  the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To:  the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject:  Re: [The_Dojang] Cloudy History Date:  Thu, 6 Apr 2006 14:53:32 -0700 (PDT) > > Did anyone else catch the part about Yoon Byung-in missing the most of > > his left pinky? Anyone else think, "yakuza"? > >-If- I recall my conversation with Dr. Kimm correctly and -if- he is right, >Yoon Byung In wasn't killed during the Korean War and wasn't captured, but >went North on his own.  He remained there (of course, what choice would he >have had by then) and taught his JuAnPa KwonBup for many years. > >Assuming this is accurate, I doubt he would have been Yakuza.  ??? > >One thing we do know about Yoon Byung In is that he was senior in rank, >and perhaps ability, to all the other kwan founders.  This could have had >something to do with the North encouraging him in their direction. > >Ray Terry >rterry@idiom.com >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "rwood" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2006 07:51:11 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Thanks for the Info Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Terry, My mistake, I was thinking of the linage stretching back to the Hwarang and the unification of the Korean peninsula. I have read the modern history. However it gets a little confusing when this one gets upset with that one and there is a schism. Thank you for the link, I look forward to read it. Robert L. Wood OSS Supervisor He who ignores disciple comes to poverty and shame, but whoever heeds correction is honored. Middle Eastern Proverb This electronic communication is from Moberly Public Schools, and is confidential, privileged, and intended only for the use of the recipient(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient, unauthorized disclosure, distribution, or use of the contents of this transmission is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify the CIS Department immediately at the following e-mail address: tech@moberly.k12.mo.us or by calling 660-269-2665. --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 06:41:02 -0700 From: "Ray Terry" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Rogge Urges Taekwondo Reform Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Rogge Urges Taekwondo Reform By Moon Gwang-lip The Korea Times 04-07-2006 Jacques Rogge, president of the International Olympic Committee, expressed special interest in measures to enhance taekwondo, Korea's traditional martial art, as an Olympic sport and ensure fairness in competitions. Rogge visited on Friday the headquarters of the World Taekwondo Federation in southern Seoul and had a one-hour meeting with the organization's president Choue Chung-won. Rogge came to Korea last week to participate in the General Assembly of the Association of National Olympic Committees and the IOC Executive Board Meeting, whch finished on Friday. ``Rogge said he is very satisfied with reform measures we are taking,'' Choue told The Korea Times after the meeting. ``He has much more knowledge than we think he does about the reformative measures concerning referees and electronic protector system. Rogge also said he wants the measures to go on so that Taekwondo can remain within the Olympic Program forever.'' In November 2004, the federation launched the reform committee to ensure fairness in refereeing and judgment at taekwondo competition. Then in March 2005 it promoted 16 reforms including increasing the number of assistant referees from 3 to 4 and introducing an electronic protector system. In particular, the WTF set up the Electronic Protector Committee in last July and is in the process to develop the systems comprising of both the head and body protectors. The WTF aims to introduce the new system at the 2007 World Taekwondo Championships to be held in Beijing in 2007 and plans to introduce it at the Beijing Olympic Games in 2008. Rogge emphasized the reform of the Olympic discipline also in a wrap-up media conference of the IOC Executive Board Meeting later held at COEX, saying ``My answer to future of the federation especially in the Olympic program is very simple. The federation has to be successful.'' Choue said: ``Rogge will support such efforts and we will try to get on the right track in reforming taekwondo.'' About the visit to the federation, first since he was inaugurated in 2001, Rogge said it was a chance to insure a close relationship between the two organizations. ``We could see very close links between the federation and the International Olympic Committee,'' Rogge told reporters in the WTF headquarters. During his visit, the WTF awarded Rogge the honorary 10th-degree black belt certificate in recognition of his contribution to development of taekwondo and all other sports in the Olympic Program. Rogge is the second person to get the honorary title after the former IOC president Juan Antonio Samaranch. --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Erik Brann" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Cloudy History Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 09:53:05 -0400 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net This document is really interesting to read, but it seems like it's out of order chronologically. Would it be possible to condense this and create some sort of timeline to show the events as they happened? Perhaps, clear objective biographies of the significant players including their martial arts backgrounds where authentication is available? Just a thought. -----Original Message----- From: PETER.MCDONALDSMITH@london-fire.gov.uk [mailto:PETER.MCDONALDSMITH@london-fire.gov.uk] Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2006 1:52 PM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Cloudy History I love fairy tales -----Original Message----- From: Ray [mailto:rterry@idiom.com] Sent: 06 April 2006 14:52 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Cloudy History > Are you saying that TKD is not a viable from of self defense or that > the history is just a little to cloudy to get a good read on where it > came from? Neither. The history of TKD is actually fairly well documented. It is just that many would rather believe the fairy tale version. http://martialartsresource.com/anonftp/pub/the_dojang/digests/history.ht ml Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang **************************************************************************** SMOKE ALARMS SAVE LIVES Go to London Fire at www.london-fire.gov.uk/firesafety This email is confidential to the addressee only. If you do not believe that you are the intended addressee, do not use, pass on or copy it in any way. If you have received it in error, please delete it immediately and telephone the supplied number, reversing the charges if necessary. _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Cloudy History To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 06:56:01 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Yoon Byung-in was 5th Dan in Shotokan. Yun Kwei-byung, the founder of Ji > Do Kwan, was 7th Dan in Shudokan. Of course, since Ji Do Kwan was the > successor to the Chosun Yunmookwan, I guess you could say he didn't > really found the kwan so much as he renamed it. Right. I'm thinking only of the original kwan founders, i.e. the founders of the original five kwans. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Cloudy History To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 06:59:37 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Would it be possible to condense this and create some sort of timeline to > show the events as they happened? Sure. Go for it... Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Joseph Cheavens" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Cloudy History Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2006 09:17:48 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net My bad, the article I was referring to in my original post was published in the Koryu Journal by the International Ryukyu Karate Research Society in 2002 and was written by Eric Maddis. Dakin Burdick and I were corresponding recently at the same time that I was corresponding with Maddis and Stan Henning regarding MA in the Late Choson and Colonial periods, so I got a little confused there. Eric Maddis kindly sent me a copy of his article, which was a big help in doing some revisions to my dissertation, which examines the relationships between yakuza, kkangp'ae, and the Japanese government. The reason that I'm interested in martial arts during this period (aside from my interest in the origins of KMA) is because of the well documented role of martial arts in right-wing gangs such as the Genyosha and Kokuryukai, the fairly well documented role of martial arts amongst 1930s and '40s kkangp'ae (e.g. Kim Du-han was reputed to have been very skilfull at taekyon and Hwang Kee states in one of his books that he was inspired in part by watching gangster fight using taekyon), and the undocumented, but seemingly implicit, role of martial arts amongst the pobusang (pedlars) in the Choson Period (the organized guilds for self defense from bandits and served as a type of irregular auxilary to the military). Its my theory that taekyon may very well have been in decline amongst the general population during the Late Chosun Period and early Colonial Period, but that it continued to be practiced amongst the socially marginalized groups, such as pedlers and gangsters, until Liberation. Given the discription of taekyon as a martial sport or game during the Chosun period that was primarily practiced by peasants, I do not think that it was a martial art in the sense that there was formal training and certainly no injection of a code of ethics. I believe it would have been learned much as kids learn how to play stick ball or hakisack in contemporary society, by watching and imitating how the older and more experienced kids do it. I've played or seen hakisack being played all over the world, and its remarkable the skill that some players have and the uniformity of techniques globally. However, there certainly are no hakisack schools and no hakisack code of ethics.   If this is the case, then it may be going too far to completely discount the influence of taekyon on Tae Kwon Do. It is possible that many of the early students that enrolled in the first kwans had some expertise in taekyon and it is likely that they at least some exposure to it. Any prior experience or exposure to taekyon by the early students of first kwans would explain the greater emphasis placed on kicking techniques as Tae Kwon Do evolved from Karate, as these students would already have a predisposition towards using kicking techniques when they fought.  Just a theory, but it would be interesting to interview the first students of the original kwans to see if they had any exposure to taekyon prior to studying the Karate that was imported in the '40s. Joe Cheavens  -------------------------------------------------------------------- From:  Ray Reply-To:  the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To:  the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject:  Re: [The_Dojang] Cloudy History Date:  Thu, 6 Apr 2006 19:45:43 -0700 (PDT) > > I had someone burst my bubble back in the mid '90s with some e-mails... > >I think Dakin burst mine in the mid to late 1980s on rec.martial-arts. > >Does that timeframe sound about right, Dakin? > >Ray Terry >rterry@idiom.com >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Joseph Cheavens" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Cloudy History Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2006 09:34:26 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Understood. Has there been any coroboration from Shotokan students contemporary with Yoon of Yoon's claims that he taught Funakoshi chauanfa techniques in return for learning Shotokan? How about in any of Funakoshi's writings? Funakoshi was a prolific writer (some argue that he was better at marketing than he was at Karate) and I would think he'd make mention somewhere of learning chaunfa techniques.  Joe Cheavens  -------------------------------------------------------------------- From:  Ray Reply-To:  the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To:  the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject:  Re: [The_Dojang] Cloudy History Date:  Fri, 7 Apr 2006 06:56:01 -0700 (PDT) > > Yoon Byung-in was 5th Dan in Shotokan. Yun Kwei-byung, the founder of Ji > > Do Kwan, was 7th Dan in Shudokan. Of course, since Ji Do Kwan was the > > successor to the Chosun Yunmookwan, I guess you could say he didn't > > really found the kwan so much as he renamed it. > >Right.  I'm thinking only of the original kwan founders, i.e. the founders >of the original five kwans. > >Ray Terry >rterry@idiom.com >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Joseph Cheavens" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Cloudy History Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2006 09:42:33 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Here is a link to another interesting article. http://www.eagletkd.com/images/STUDENT%20FORUM%20from%20Korea%20Journal.pdf Also, check out back issues #22 and #23 of Dragon Times. The two articles by Robert Dohrenwend are a good read. He goes into a lot more background history of MA in Korea prior to the founding of the kwans. I think his hypothesis that the practice of traditional Asian MA from China may have actually originated from Greek pancreation is very interesting. Given that Buddhist sculpture and painting techniques owe their origins to Greek art, which was itself influenced by Egyptian art, that was spread by Alexander the Great and his armies, I think he may be on to something here. http://www.dragon-tsunami.org/Dtimes/Pages/backissues.htm Joe Cheavens -------------------------------------------------------------------- From:  "Erik Brann" Reply-To:  the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To:   Subject:  RE: [The_Dojang] Cloudy History Date:  Fri, 7 Apr 2006 09:53:05 -0400 >This document is really interesting to read, but it seems like it's out of >order chronologically. > >Would it be possible to condense this and create some sort of timeline to >show the events as they happened? > >Perhaps, clear objective biographies of the significant players including >their martial arts backgrounds where authentication is available? > >Just a thought. > >-----Original Message----- >From: PETER.MCDONALDSMITH@london-fire.gov.uk >[mailto:PETER.MCDONALDSMITH@london-fire.gov.uk] >Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2006 1:52 PM >To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Cloudy History > >I love fairy tales > >-----Original Message----- >From: Ray [mailto:rterry@idiom.com] >Sent: 06 April 2006 14:52 >To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Cloudy History > > > Are you saying that TKD is not a viable from of self defense or that > > the history is just a little to cloudy to get a good read on where it > > came from? > >Neither. > >The history of TKD is actually fairly well documented.  It is just that many >would rather believe the fairy tale version. > >http://martialartsresource.com/anonftp/pub/the_dojang/digests/history.ht >ml > >Ray Terry >rterry@idiom.com >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard >disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang >**************************************************************************** > > > >SMOKE ALARMS SAVE LIVES > > > >Go to London Fire at www.london-fire.gov.uk/firesafety > > > >This email is confidential to the addressee only. If you do not believe that >you are the intended addressee, do not use, pass on or copy it in any way. >If you have received it in error, please delete it immediately and telephone >the supplied number, reversing the charges if necessary. >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard >disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2006 12:28:24 -0500 From: "Calvin Berlin" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] 10th Degree Belt Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net You don't need to be dead to get a 10th degree belt from the WTF By Moon Gwang-lip Staff Reporter Jacques Rogge, president of the International Olympic Committee, expressed special interest in measures to enhance taekwondo, Korea's traditional martial art, as an Olympic sport and ensure fairness in competitions. Rogge visited on Friday the headquarters of the World Taekwondo Federation in southern Seoul and had a one-hour meeting with the organization's president Choue Chung-won. Rogge came to Korea last week to participate in the General Assembly of the Association of National Olympic Committees and the IOC Executive Board Meeting, whch finished on Friday. ``Rogge said he is very satisfied with reform measures we are taking,'' Choue told The Korea Times after the meeting. ``He has much more knowledge than we think he does about the reformative measures concerning referees and electronic protector system. Rogge also said he wants the measures to go on so that Taekwondo can remain within the Olympic Program forever.'' In November 2004, the federation launched the reform committee to ensure fairness in refereeing and judgment at taekwondo competition. Then in March 2005 it promoted 16 reforms including increasing the number of assistant referees from 3 to 4 and introducing an electronic protector system. In particular, the WTF set up the Electronic Protector Committee in last July and is in the process to develop the systems comprising of both the head and body protectors. The WTF aims to introduce the new system at the 2007 World Taekwondo Championships to be held in Beijing in 2007 and plans to introduce it at the Beijing Olympic Games in 2008. Rogge emphasized the reform of the Olympic discipline also in a wrap-up media conference of the IOC Executive Board Meeting later held at COEX, saying ``My answer to future of the federation especially in the Olympic program is very simple. The federation has to be successful.'' Choue said: ``Rogge will support such efforts and we will try to get on the right track in reforming taekwondo.'' About the visit to the federation, first since he was inaugurated in 2001, Rogge said it was a chance to insure a close relationship between the two organizations. ``We could see very close links between the federation and the International Olympic Committee,'' Rogge told reporters in the WTF headquarters. During his visit, the WTF awarded Rogge the honorary 10th-degree black belt certificate in recognition of his contribution to development of taekwondo and all other sports in the Olympic Program. Rogge is the second person to get the honorary title after the former IOC president Juan Antonio Samaranch. ----------------------------------------------------- This electronic mail transmission contains information from P&H Mining Equipment which is confidential, and is intended only for the use of the proper Addressee. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify us immediately at the return address on this transmission, or by telephone at (414) 671-4400, and delete this message and any attachments from your system. Unauthorized use, copying, disclosing, distributing, or taking any action in reliance on the contents of this transmission is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. ----------------------------------------------------- -Privacy- --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "Joseph Cheavens" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] 10th Degree Belt Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2006 13:51:08 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "During his visit, the WTF awarded Rogge the honorary 10th-degree black belt certificate in recognition of his contribution to development of taekwondo and all other sports in the Olympic Program. Rogge is the second person to get the honorary title after the former IOC president Juan Antonio Samaranch." Sheesh. Whatever happened to just giving an honorary 1st Dan? I guess there are no better legal ways to butter up the head of the IOC. Joe Cheavens --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 12:59:34 -0700 (PDT) From: "Raymond Navarro" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Bowing from Master Dan Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Dan and be blessed just the same to all that read this. I personally beleive that this about bowing to any one came from very ancient times so no one can really confirm for a fact were did this started at. Any way, as logic as it might seem and just as in that time and era like we too beleive in a higher being as cristians or catholics know that from the begining of time the ones that heard God never faced him and for this more certainlly this people looked dowgards. This in the occident world so in the oriental world for example in Korea the truth is that at some momment some one started doing the bow to some one in a higher plane. It could have been before DanGun, the heavenly prince known as the prince from heaven by the name (if not mistaken) of Wahn In came to Earth and save humanity from distruction etc etc that I think that if it has anything to do about or with some one having a sword this would be the time when it all started. The fact can really not be proven. HAP Ramon Navarro HapKiDo SabomNim Song Moo Kwan HapKiDo Panama Republic of Panama 6. Bowing from Master Dan (Dan Scholten) Message: 6 Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 08:42:44 -0800 From: Dan Scholten To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Bowing from Master Dan Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bowing was always taught to me as respect for rank same as a salute even if no one is present then you bow to the flags or a direction in the Do Jang that represents higher rank, judges, or master instructors ect. How to bow however was explained to me related to when men still carried swords and that a proper respectful bow was eyes and face down exposing the back of your neck. This was making your self exposed to a blow to the back of the neck by his sword admitting that he had the power of life and death over you. This respect was required as well as never turning your back to the master or stepping forward when finishing a movement you always step back or it becomes a challenge to fight. _____________________________________________________________ Get a web-based email for life now ---> http://mail.hapkidokr.org --__--__-- Message: 13 Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 13:04:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma To: MartialArtsTalk@yahoogroups.com Subject: [The_Dojang] listen up Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net http://www.softlab.ece.ntua.gr/~sivann/pub/swf/may02-smilepop-soapbox4.swf --------------------------------- How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger’s low PC-to-Phone call rates. --__--__-- Message: 14 From: Ray To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 14:31:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] Seoul in 1946 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Of possible interest. Old city map of Seoul. Ray ---------------------------------------------------------- http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/seoul_city_plans_1946.jpg The main page is at http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/korea.html --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest