Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 16:22:21 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 13 #181 - 7 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,100 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: KJML (mark scianna) 2. Re: Forms and their value (sidtkd@aol.com) 3. Young Black Belts (Thomas Gordon) 4. Real Meat (rwood) 5. Re: Grand Master Ji Young Song (Luc Nguyen) 6. RE: article: self defense in modern TKD (Joseph Cheavens) 7. RE: article: self defense in modern TKD (Matt Munson) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 03:34:06 -0400 (EDT) From: mark scianna To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: KJML Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Thanks again Master West. I believe that we are speaking about the same person, he told me about attending the KSW tournament in 81, I may have gotten the dates wrong myself. I will ask him about the rest. Again, Sir, many thanks. Mark --__--__-- Message: 2 From: sidtkd@aol.com Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 07:08:35 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Forms and their value Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net For my students and myself, forms have a truly deep meaning. They are as I've mentioned, walking meditation, the art of martial arts and the best training for balance and rhythm. I grade students on the tenents of martial arts eg, integfrity, respect, indominable spirit etc and when students test for first dan they get what some call a junior black belt. (Black with white stripe). When they invent their own form of no less than 30 steps I give them their full black belt. It tells me that they have integrated meditation, philosophy and application. I have found though, that about 30% of those that make black belt do this well. I consider that an excellent percentage as so many of those students are under 25. Sid --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 06:14:54 -0500 (CDT) From: "Thomas Gordon" Subject: [The_Dojang] Young Black Belts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net While in Korea, I saw a lot of very young children wearing black belts for Hapkido ranking. In fairness, I saw one of our host’s 6 year old grandson’s goofing off and wrestling with his older brother while trying to throw him with a hip toss. Kinda funny, later on I saw his dad do the same thing to him so I know where he gets it from. LOL! So I keep hearing (and saying) how tough Hapkido is and how we shouldn’t promote children to black belt. Now we can argue all day over the magic age being 4, 6, 8, 10, 20, 30...whatever. But I think we all agree that a five year old is pretty young. So why did we see so many a few weekends doing a demonstration at the tournament? I have a few thoughts that I discussed with Grandmaster Timmerman and Master Janisse and would like some feedback. First off, I think the culture in Korea starts teaching martial arts at a much younger age than we do and take the training more seriously. Secondly, perhaps the first martial art instructors (regardless of being Korean, Japanese, or Chinese) may have implied that it was tough earning a black belt and, in essence, making themselves look good by referring to themselves as being tough. Thirdly, I think we bought into it and further romanticized the "ideal" black belt. Folks, I saw some truly awesome demonstrations and competitors from the Koreans. I also saw some "less than spectacular." With all of this said, we won’t be making any adjustments at our school in regards to age or curriculum but I still found it interesting and thought I’d share. Thomas Gordon Florida --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "rwood" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 09:04:07 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Real Meat Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Yes sir, my instructors have pointed out on a number of occasions “this is how to use “x” move in a self defense situation”. I can see the gleam in their eyes when we the students ask “is this how “y” would be used in the real world and they smile and say yeas. I think it show we are getting the principle and not just the technique, which the real meat of the art. IHS, Rob He who ignores disciple comes to poverty and shame, but whoever heeds correction is honored. Proverbs 13:18 This electronic communication is from Moberly Public Schools, and is confidential, privileged, and intended only for the use of the recipient(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient, unauthorized disclosure, distribution, or use of the contents of this transmission is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify the CIS Department immediately at the following e-mail address: tech@moberly.k12.mo.us or by calling 660-269-2665. --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Luc Nguyen" To: Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 11:13:22 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Grand Master Ji Young Song Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net We have been asking GM Song to be our guest judge for the last 2 years at our Black belt test. He is a very nice man. Very knowledgeable. My association with him has been very positive and I would recommend him and his school. Luc Nguyen -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.4.5/322 - Release Date: 4/22/2006 --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Joseph Cheavens" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] article: self defense in modern TKD Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 15:35:15 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Good read. Thanks for posting. This pretty much sums up what I've been saying about TKD for the last ten years or so - that focusing on training for competitions was diluting TKD as a martial art. When I teach forms, I like to teach the practical applications of the technique and have the students work with each other taking parts of the forms and using them for one and three step sparring drills or self-defense techniques. The last school where I trained/taught actually had sets of one and three step sparring steps for each belt level based on the poomse for that particular belt level as part of the curriculum that each student would be tested on. Joe Cheavens -------------------------------------------------------------------- From:  Jye nigma Reply-To:  the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To:  the_dojang@martialartsresource.net, itf-taekwondo@yahoogroups.com Subject:  [The_Dojang] article: self defense in modern TKD Date:  Sat, 22 Apr 2006 22:27:33 -0700 (PDT) >       Self Defense In Modern Taekwondo >by Avner Wishnitzer         The essence of the martial art revitalized   Grandmaster Chang Seong Dong in a knife hand breakTaekwondo has never been so popular. From China to California, from Australia to Norway, millions practice this originally Korean martial art. Tournaments held all over the world attract thousands of professional and amateur practitioners. The introduction of Taekwondo into the Olympics has given it an official recognition. Taekwondo has become a world-wide sport. >   But success had its price, a price which is much higher than usually acknowledged. In the process of popularizing Taekwondo, the sportive aspect has taken over and Taekwondo as a martial art has lost its identity. In this short article I would like to present the problematic nature of today's Taekwondo in light of the growing distance between its present condition and its roots as an art of self-defense. After discussing the present situation I shall raise a few ideas regarding possible solutions. My hope is to attract attention to the issue of self-defense which is significant to the future of Taekwondo as a whole. >   WTF Taekwondo today is all about competing. The growing popularity of both Kiyurugi and Poomsae tournaments has led to the dwindling of anything that does not serve the "ultimate goal" of winning a tournament. What good are low kicks if they are forbidden? What's the point of practicing take-downs if they cannot win a medal in a Poomsae championship? >   Thus, in many DoJangs around the world basic self-defense skills are not taught at all. As a result, many Taekwondo black belts, including competing athletes, can hardly defend themselves outside the ring. That leads, in turn, to the gradual decrease in the prestige of Taekwondo within the martial arts community. Already today, Taekwondo is perceived by many merely as a sport rather than as a martial art with a sportive dimension. >   More important than image, is what Taekwondo means for the people who practice it. One may even ask what is Taekwondo today? What is its nature? >   At a first glance, we may say that Taekwondo has a very distinct style, one that anyone can recognize. But that is not true if we step out of the ring. What would Taekwondo look like then? What form would it have when not confined by rules? Can one still find today Taekwondo which is independent of WTF rules, or maybe its nature has come to be defined only by competing rules, just like any other sport? The way soccer is played, for example, will change completely if the offside rules are changed since it is rules that dictate the nature of soccer. Does the nature of Taekwondo, like football, depends only on the rules according to which it is played or does it still have an independent essence? >   The place of the self-defense aspect within Taekwondo is crucial for all these questions. From a self-defense point of view it is clear that neither sparring in the WTF style, nor Poomsae training are similar to actual fighting. If one is to use only techniques which are allowed by the WTF rules, Taekwondo is hardly practical. So what is the point of practicing all these complex stepping and kicking techniques for people who are done with competing? What's the point of doing Poomsae if one cannot utilize the knowledge it conveys? >   The answers to all these questions lie in a broader concept of a "martial art". What makes all aspects of modern Taekwondo meaningful is the role they play in the whole, in the general performing level of the martial artist. >   Most martial arts share a few characteristics in common: they combine the nourishing of the body and the mind through physical training and the developing of self-defense skills. They focus on the individual and measure his progress not only in comparison with others, but mainly in light of his own ability. A martial artist does not satisfy his ambitions just by winning in the ring, for competing is only a means to achieve a higher level. Why? Because. A martial artist strives to perform better just for the sake of performing better. It is in this context that the self-defense aspect of Taekwondo should be understood. Self-defense skills are not necessarily developed only for practical reasons. They should mainly serve as a guide line, a main theme that ties all other aspects of Taekwondo together. After all, self-defense is the essence of the martial art and what separates it from other types of rhythmic activities such as dancing. >   Thus the high level kicking technique, speed, agility and stamina all of which are attained by sparring, and the firmness, precision and focus which are improved by Poomsae should not be seen as unrelated activities. All aspects of modern Taekwondo are part of a wider system, a system in the heart of which stands the constant striving towards higher performance. This performance cannot be degraded to such a level of being evaluated only by points. It should also be measured in more concrete and real terms of "does it actually work". These are the terms of self-defense. >   It is the self-defense aspect that makes Taekwondo a true martial art. Without it Taekwondo sparring is not essentially different than boxing or wrestling. Taekwondo Poomsae, without its connection to self defense is not very different from gymnastics. Aesthetic as it may be, many of us do not find it satisfactory. >   Reintroducing self defense into modern Taekwondo is important not only for redefining its identity as a martial art. It is crucial for far simpler reasons. Firstly, due to the decrease in the prestige of Taekwondo as a martial art, many potential practitioners turn to other martial arts. Many of them do that simply because they hear that "Taekwondo is not practical. It is, just like Judo, only a sport". >   Older practitioners, including former competitive athletes, very often do not find stimulation in Taekwondo training which for the most part focuses on sparring techniques. These techniques are sometimes worthless outside the ring and are thus not enough for people who do not compete anyway. Some of these more advanced practitioners look for "the next stage" in their growth as martial artists. For many, learning the next Poomsae or another Kiyurugi combination that can only work in a ring, is simply not enough. They want to go deeper and further with their understanding and skills but cannot easily find the path within Taekwondo. For these reasons some of these advanced practitioners turn to other martial arts to continue and develop their skills. Others just give up and become instructors. >   In short, due to the neglect of some of the more traditional aspects of Taekwondo, mainly the self defense aspect, Taekwondo has become "thinner" and "poorer" in many ways. >   So much for the problems that arise from the neglecting of self defense in modern Taekwondo; what can be done to improve the situation? >   It is my belief that the main institutional organs of Taekwondo (the WTF, the Kukkiwon, the ETU and so forth) should take the issue into their hands and work out ways to reintroduce self-defense. As is evident in the Poomsae, in the Macho Kiyurugi techniques and in the Hoshinsul, Elbow strikes, Knee attacks, knife hands and punching to the head, take-downs and low kicks, are all an integral part of Taekwondo. Only few practitioners, however, are capable of executing such techniques "for real". All these techniques should thus be reincorporated into everyday training, not just as a part of the Poomsae, but as techniques that are mastered to the level of performance. The way to do it is of course, to set a curriculum, to develop drills and to make self-defense part of the obligatory material for grading. I do not think that anyone can take seriously the way Hoshinsul techniques are performed in grading today and even these techniques are not obligatory in Kukkiwon grading >  in Korea. >   (The neglect of self defense may partly explain also why Taekwondo in Korea is practiced almost exclusively by children. Adults, who don't compete and who may be looking for something more "real", just don't see the point.) >   The reintroduction of self defense is not simple, of course. This aspect has been neglected for too long and much knowledge has been lost. It can still be found in the older books and in the back of the minds of the older masters. It can also be reconstructed with the help of ITF masters and their knowledge, for that style has remained more true to its roots. I am well aware of the political problems that keep the two federations apart but it is time to work toward a solution of these problems for the sake of mutual enrichment. Obviously, much work is needed but certainly no more than the effort that was put into the reconstruction of the Poomsae system only a few decades ago. >   The developing of the self defense aspect does not mean throwing away of all other aspects, rather it completes them. A practitioner who masters the use of elbows will perform, say, Taeguk Hojang to a much higher level. His elbow strikes, formerly an "empty" movement, a movement that only resembled a strike, will now be "full" and meaningful as they can actually be used "for real". Increasing the importance and the time dedicated to self defense will make Taekwondo black belt holders more worthy of their ranks, as people fully able of defending themselves if needed. >   Reintroducing self defense will enrich Taekwondo, moreover, it will give it back its identity and integrity as a martial art. It will attract more students and will keep the older, more advanced ones within its realm. It will revitalize this wonderful martial art and push it forward, into the 21st century. > > >--------------------------------- >Blab-away for as little as 1¢/min. Make  PC-to-Phone Calls using Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 15:27:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Matt Munson Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] article: self defense in modern TKD To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Joe, I teach 3-steps and 1-steps in a similar manner, with them comprised of the techniques from the pattern for the students given grade. Matt Joseph Cheavens wrote: Good read. Thanks for posting. This pretty much sums up what I've been saying about TKD for the last ten years or so - that focusing on training for competitions was diluting TKD as a martial art. When I teach forms, I like to teach the practical applications of the technique and have the students work with each other taking parts of the forms and using them for one and three step sparring drills or self-defense techniques. The last school where I trained/taught actually had sets of one and three step sparring steps for each belt level based on the poomse for that particular belt level as part of the curriculum that each student would be tested on. Joe Cheavens -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jye nigma Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net, itf-taekwondo@yahoogroups.com Subject: [The_Dojang] article: self defense in modern TKD Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 22:27:33 -0700 (PDT) > Self Defense In Modern Taekwondo >by Avner Wishnitzer The essence of the martial art revitalized Grandmaster Chang Seong Dong in a knife hand breakTaekwondo has never been so popular. From China to California, from Australia to Norway, millions practice this originally Korean martial art. Tournaments held all over the world attract thousands of professional and amateur practitioners. The introduction of Taekwondo into the Olympics has given it an official recognition. Taekwondo has become a world-wide sport. > But success had its price, a price which is much higher than usually acknowledged. In the process of popularizing Taekwondo, the sportive aspect has taken over and Taekwondo as a martial art has lost its identity. In this short article I would like to present the problematic nature of today's Taekwondo in light of the growing distance between its present condition and its roots as an art of self-defense. After discussing the present situation I shall raise a few ideas regarding possible solutions. My hope is to attract attention to the issue of self-defense which is significant to the future of Taekwondo as a whole. > WTF Taekwondo today is all about competing. The growing popularity of both Kiyurugi and Poomsae tournaments has led to the dwindling of anything that does not serve the "ultimate goal" of winning a tournament. What good are low kicks if they are forbidden? What's the point of practicing take-downs if they cannot win a medal in a Poomsae championship? > Thus, in many DoJangs around the world basic self-defense skills are not taught at all. As a result, many Taekwondo black belts, including competing athletes, can hardly defend themselves outside the ring. That leads, in turn, to the gradual decrease in the prestige of Taekwondo within the martial arts community. Already today, Taekwondo is perceived by many merely as a sport rather than as a martial art with a sportive dimension. > More important than image, is what Taekwondo means for the people who practice it. One may even ask what is Taekwondo today? What is its nature? > At a first glance, we may say that Taekwondo has a very distinct style, one that anyone can recognize. But that is not true if we step out of the ring. What would Taekwondo look like then? What form would it have when not confined by rules? Can one still find today Taekwondo which is independent of WTF rules, or maybe its nature has come to be defined only by competing rules, just like any other sport? The way soccer is played, for example, will change completely if the offside rules are changed since it is rules that dictate the nature of soccer. Does the nature of Taekwondo, like football, depends only on the rules according to which it is played or does it still have an independent essence? > The place of the self-defense aspect within Taekwondo is crucial for all these questions. From a self-defense point of view it is clear that neither sparring in the WTF style, nor Poomsae training are similar to actual fighting. If one is to use only techniques which are allowed by the WTF rules, Taekwondo is hardly practical. So what is the point of practicing all these complex stepping and kicking techniques for people who are done with competing? What's the point of doing Poomsae if one cannot utilize the knowledge it conveys? > The answers to all these questions lie in a broader concept of a "martial art". What makes all aspects of modern Taekwondo meaningful is the role they play in the whole, in the general performing level of the martial artist. > Most martial arts share a few characteristics in common: they combine the nourishing of the body and the mind through physical training and the developing of self-defense skills. They focus on the individual and measure his progress not only in comparison with others, but mainly in light of his own ability. A martial artist does not satisfy his ambitions just by winning in the ring, for competing is only a means to achieve a higher level. Why? Because. A martial artist strives to perform better just for the sake of performing better. It is in this context that the self-defense aspect of Taekwondo should be understood. Self-defense skills are not necessarily developed only for practical reasons. They should mainly serve as a guide line, a main theme that ties all other aspects of Taekwondo together. After all, self-defense is the essence of the martial art and what separates it from other types of rhythmic activities such as dancing. > Thus the high level kicking technique, speed, agility and stamina all of which are attained by sparring, and the firmness, precision and focus which are improved by Poomsae should not be seen as unrelated activities. All aspects of modern Taekwondo are part of a wider system, a system in the heart of which stands the constant striving towards higher performance. This performance cannot be degraded to such a level of being evaluated only by points. It should also be measured in more concrete and real terms of "does it actually work". These are the terms of self-defense. > It is the self-defense aspect that makes Taekwondo a true martial art. Without it Taekwondo sparring is not essentially different than boxing or wrestling. Taekwondo Poomsae, without its connection to self defense is not very different from gymnastics. Aesthetic as it may be, many of us do not find it satisfactory. > Reintroducing self defense into modern Taekwondo is important not only for redefining its identity as a martial art. It is crucial for far simpler reasons. Firstly, due to the decrease in the prestige of Taekwondo as a martial art, many potential practitioners turn to other martial arts. Many of them do that simply because they hear that "Taekwondo is not practical. It is, just like Judo, only a sport". > Older practitioners, including former competitive athletes, very often do not find stimulation in Taekwondo training which for the most part focuses on sparring techniques. These techniques are sometimes worthless outside the ring and are thus not enough for people who do not compete anyway. Some of these more advanced practitioners look for "the next stage" in their growth as martial artists. For many, learning the next Poomsae or another Kiyurugi combination that can only work in a ring, is simply not enough. They want to go deeper and further with their understanding and skills but cannot easily find the path within Taekwondo. For these reasons some of these advanced practitioners turn to other martial arts to continue and develop their skills. Others just give up and become instructors. > In short, due to the neglect of some of the more traditional aspects of Taekwondo, mainly the self defense aspect, Taekwondo has become "thinner" and "poorer" in many ways. > So much for the problems that arise from the neglecting of self defense in modern Taekwondo; what can be done to improve the situation? > It is my belief that the main institutional organs of Taekwondo (the WTF, the Kukkiwon, the ETU and so forth) should take the issue into their hands and work out ways to reintroduce self-defense. As is evident in the Poomsae, in the Macho Kiyurugi techniques and in the Hoshinsul, Elbow strikes, Knee attacks, knife hands and punching to the head, take-downs and low kicks, are all an integral part of Taekwondo. Only few practitioners, however, are capable of executing such techniques "for real". All these techniques should thus be reincorporated into everyday training, not just as a part of the Poomsae, but as techniques that are mastered to the level of performance. The way to do it is of course, to set a curriculum, to develop drills and to make self-defense part of the obligatory material for grading. I do not think that anyone can take seriously the way Hoshinsul techniques are performed in grading today and even these techniques are not obligatory in Kukkiwon grading > in Korea. > (The neglect of self defense may partly explain also why Taekwondo in Korea is practiced almost exclusively by children. Adults, who don't compete and who may be looking for something more "real", just don't see the point.) > The reintroduction of self defense is not simple, of course. This aspect has been neglected for too long and much knowledge has been lost. It can still be found in the older books and in the back of the minds of the older masters. It can also be reconstructed with the help of ITF masters and their knowledge, for that style has remained more true to its roots. I am well aware of the political problems that keep the two federations apart but it is time to work toward a solution of these problems for the sake of mutual enrichment. Obviously, much work is needed but certainly no more than the effort that was put into the reconstruction of the Poomsae system only a few decades ago. > The developing of the self defense aspect does not mean throwing away of all other aspects, rather it completes them. A practitioner who masters the use of elbows will perform, say, Taeguk Hojang to a much higher level. His elbow strikes, formerly an "empty" movement, a movement that only resembled a strike, will now be "full" and meaningful as they can actually be used "for real". Increasing the importance and the time dedicated to self defense will make Taekwondo black belt holders more worthy of their ranks, as people fully able of defending themselves if needed. > Reintroducing self defense will enrich Taekwondo, moreover, it will give it back its identity and integrity as a martial art. It will attract more students and will keep the older, more advanced ones within its realm. It will revitalize this wonderful martial art and push it forward, into the 21st century. > > >--------------------------------- >Blab-away for as little as 1¢/min. Make PC-to-Phone Calls using Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --------------------------------- Blab-away for as little as 1¢/min. Make PC-to-Phone Calls using Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest