Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 12:10:21 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 13 #183 - 11 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,100 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: young black belts (Klaas Barends) 2. Black Belts and Age (Rudy Timmerman) 3. TKD Views (rwood) 4. RE: Forms and their value (Joseph Cheavens) 5. Re: Black Belts and Age (Thomas Gordon) 6. Re: Re: young black belts (Thomas Gordon) 7. Re: van advertising (ChunjiDo@aol.com) 8. Re: Pictures of Korea trip (aburrese@aol.com) 9. =?WINDOWS-1252?Q?Why_hasn=92t_the_world_body_recognised_MTF=3F? = (The_Dojang) 10. Re: Black Belts and Age (Ray) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Klaas Barends Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 09:02:58 +0200 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: young black belts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > First off, I think the culture in Korea starts teaching martial > arts at a > much younger age than we do and take the training more seriously. > > Secondly, perhaps the first martial art instructors (regardless of > being > Korean, Japanese, or Chinese) may have implied that it was tough > earning a > black belt and, in essence, making themselves look good by > referring to > themselves as being tough. > > Thirdly, I think we bought into it and further romanticized the > "ideal" > black belt. Folks, I saw some truly awesome demonstrations and > competitors from the Koreans. I also saw some "less than > spectacular." > Fourth, because it is part of a school's income. From what I saw a Korean school only has to pay about 20~30.000 won ($30) for a first dan certificate while they charge the students around 100.000 or more. Martial arts schools in Korea are for 99% very geared towards teaching kids. If you promise the parent that their kid can make it to 1st dan in 2 years in your school but the guy teaching at the gym next to yours promises he can do it in 1. You will have to adjust to keep your income. Korea is probably the place where they invested McDojangs. Most of the Koreans aren't very serious about martial arts. It is considered to be something for children. In the Korean confucian society, the warrior was in the lowest class. Fifth, because getting your first dan is really about knowing your basics. And with the current standards 'knowing the basics' isn't that much. Probably everyone who has spend more than a few weeks in Korea can tell you this. -- kind regards, Klaas Barends www.hapkido.nl --__--__-- Message: 2 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Rudy Timmerman Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 07:52:03 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Black Belts and Age Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Thomas writes: > So I keep hearing (and saying) how tough Hapkido is and how we > shouldn’t > promote children to black belt. Now we can argue all day over the > magic > age being 4, 6, 8, 10, 20, 30...whatever. But I think we all agree > that a > five year old is pretty young. So why did we see so many a few > weekends > doing a demonstration at the tournament? I have a few thoughts that I > discussed with Grandmaster Timmerman and Master Janisse and would like > some feedback. > > First off, I think the culture in Korea starts teaching martial > arts at a > much younger age than we do and take the training more seriously. Hello Thomas (following the DD first name use). I will give your questions a try; however, we will not likely find an agreeable answer to this dilemma. First off. The demo teams you saw wore a "Demo Team" outfit that does not necessarily mean that the wearers are black belts. For the sake of a unified look, large organizations often use a team suit that is designed to make the team look good... ignoring rank etc. Having said that, there ARE a lot of young black belts in Korea. It seems that Koreans are not nearly as hung up over the age v/s black belt thing as we are. I personally have promoted several young people to black belt around age 10 or 12, and their promotion was determined by the ability/skill of the young person, his or her attitude, work habits, and a host of other things... they were NOT tested on how well they could perform their technique against larger or older people. Similarly, I do not "test" OLDER people, adult men or women against the abilities of others, I test EACH and EVERY person by the same standards keeping in mind their age and personal ability DUE to that age, weight, size, gender, and or (dis) ability. Why do we look different at a child (who performs according to a set standard) than we view a Senior Citizen??? BOTH are perhaps NOT the ideal example of what a black belt should be. Our industry looks at these issues with one eye closed, because it takes into consideration the PAST abilities of Senior Black Belts who may (like myself) have encountered some physical limitations in our journey; however, it does NOT take into consideration the many things YOUNG people CAN do that MANY adult black belts are unable to do. IMHO, this is a double standard. We may forgive an adult who is not able to do the splits, but few of us give a child credit for being able to do that (and many other things adults find hard to do). Certainly, in old days (when martial arts were martial in nature), we could hardly give a child a black belt. This distinction was reserved for those of "fighting age". Oddly enough, I have personally witnessed the criteria of fighting age change to accept the VERY young, because it became necessary as the ideal age fighters lost their lives. So, it became a matter of convenience to make adaptations in many armies (Germany's army being just one I saw do this with my own eyes in WW 2). Today, a black belt is no longer synonymous with the "martial" ways of long ago. So, there is not even a NEED to "save" our young people from a rank that would earlier mean enlistment in a fighting unit. Heck, I have seen countless adults wearing black belts who could not fight their way out of a wet paper bag, so "fighting" is not even a consideration for most schools. If it IS, woe be onto these folks if they ever need to use martial art skills to defend themselves. With the dubious distinction of having been in a considerable number or scrapes (I read Alain's Hard Won Wisdom too late lol), it has been my contention that fighting efficiently is more of an "attitude" than of acquired skills, even if these skills DO give you a better chance (IF you have what it takes to fight in the first place). IMHO, the bottom line of age and black belts goes way beyond the obvious. Young AND old alike, many schools today look at the individual. If they deserve it fine... if not, fail them (unfortunately THERE is where we have an entirely other issue that warrants a closer look lol). A while back, I did a seminar for you in Crestview. With me, I had a young man who assisted me. I brought him along to give him experience, and by all accounts (from your own people), he did an admirable job. This particular young man began martial art training at age 4, and he stuck with it where MANY adults "gave up" over the years. I promoted him to black belt without hesitation, because he EARNED that honor despite his age. He did all ANYONE was required to do for his test, and I was proud to award him the rank he deserved to have. Yes, he WAS older than age five when he earned it, but many people do not accept his rank even at age ten or twelve. For those people, I have one question... will you hang up your black belt when you are no longer able to do flying side kicks with the greatest of ease? If so, we are probably worse off as we need your wisdom. We will ALSO be worse off denying a good young person a black belt and have him or her quit because of lack of progress. The young man you saw had no problem dealing with a full class of adults. He respected them, and in turn they respected him... it was all about his ability to deliver the goods... not his age. Rudy --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "rwood" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 08:44:59 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] TKD Views Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Cheavens Sir, I have enjoyed your writings on the history of Korean Martial arts posted here on the DD and I look forward to more of them. Sir, you state the focus on competition has diluted TKD as a martial art. With respect sir, that is painting with a rather broad brush. I am a TKD practitioner (4th Keup) and the style I study (if that is the right word) is descended from Kong Soo and the early (50’s and 60’s) era of TKD development. I have studied Okinawan style karate (OSK) before and I can see the “family” resemblance between the TKD I study and OSK in the deep stances, hard blocks, and punching techniques. My instructors have time and again pointed out that the high flying kicks we use in the Dojang have little or no application in the real world, but are used mostly for strengthening and flexibility improvement. To be sure some organizations have diluted TKD to the point of sport rather than martial art. But would you make the same judgment of Judo or Boxing, both an Olympic sport. At an Olympic style event, TKD; Judo; and Boxing conform to an Olympic standard which may be different than other organizations use when awarding points or grading. IHS, Rob He who ignores disciple comes to poverty and shame, but whoever heeds correction is honored. Proverbs 13:18 This electronic communication is from Moberly Public Schools, and is confidential, privileged, and intended only for the use of the recipient(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient, unauthorized disclosure, distribution, or use of the contents of this transmission is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify the CIS Department immediately at the following e-mail address: tech@moberly.k12.mo.us or by calling 660-269-2665. --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Joseph Cheavens" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Forms and their value Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 09:14:30 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Lok, not sure who this was addressed to.  I live in Austin, but have also lived and done TKD in Arizona, Ohio, Osaka, Houston and Hawai'i. Here in Austin, I was studying/teaching at the US Martial Arts Institute, which is no sadly defunct. The curriculum for USMAI was developed by Dr. Kim Dae-sik and GM Yoon Tai. I am currently "between schools" so to say. Joe Cheavens -------------------------------------------------------------------- From:  f Lee Reply-To:  the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To:  the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject:  [The_Dojang] Forms and their value Date:  Mon, 24 Apr 2006 17:29:14 -0700 (PDT) >Sounds interesting, where do you have your school? > >   Lok > > >--------------------------------- >Blab-away for as little as 1˘/min. Make  PC-to-Phone Calls using Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 09:55:38 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Black Belts and Age From: "Thomas Gordon" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Grandmaster Timmerman, As always, thank you for the reply and insight. "The demo teams you saw wore a 'Demo Team' outfit that does not necessarily mean that the wearers are black belts. For the sake of a unified look, large organizations often use a team suit that is designed to make the team look good... ignoring rank etc." That's interesting. I didn't realize that may have been a possibility. In regards to the age issue and similarities we can draw from being too young and being too old, I understand what you’re saying and agree. The only validation point is an older person hopefully has the wisdom to back up the ranking even though likely not the physical abilities of a youthful counterpart. Same correlation with the military examples. We don’t see many 30 year old generals running around although most generals can’t physically perform up to the standards of younger soliders. At some point we’re promoting more based on teaching ability. Looking at ITF, there isn’t a physical examination past sixth degree. In regards to the seminar at our school, yes Sir, the young man had a lot of ability, training, and talent. He certainly has the ability of being a excellent instructor. But my beef, and part of it is within myself, is how we set age limits of 8, 10, 12, 20, (whatever) when it’s obviously not the norm within the very art we're teaching when we look at the Korea based schools. Regardless, at our school, we have self imposed minimum age limits and we’ll stick to them. I just find it ironic and a bit perplexing. And I find the whole argument about "how it's done in the homeland" hypocritical. Yeah, I take issue when I see someone with a sparring bag with a black belt tucked in next to the diapers. I always chuckle thinking the poor kid had to wait a while because they couldn't get the belt around the umbicial cord... And as you started off your reply, "we will not likely find an agreeable answer to this dilemma." There’s not, I'm just a curious person and like to study on things. I'm satisfied there’s not a solid answer. Thanks again for taking the time to reply. Warm regards, Thomas Gordon Florida --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 09:56:00 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: young black belts From: "Thomas Gordon" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Barends, Thank you for your reply. In essence, your reply was the intent of my post. I see people say they teach like it’s taught in the orient. One guy was bragging to me about his eight year color belt program because "that’s how it's done in the (mystical) homeland." I had a great time in Korea. Grandmaster Timmerman was great, the Seo’s were first class. No complaints. I had read about the lower standards for "modern" martial arts, talked with people that said the same, and met some of the Koreans that came to the states with what I considered under par ability. To go there and see for myself was eye opening. With all of that said, I also saw some absolutely fantastic martial artists. Thomas Gordon Florida --__--__-- Message: 7 From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 10:58:43 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: van advertising Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net i think some of these logos can be purchased through _www.mooto.com_ (http://www.mooto.com) i recognise some of the characters theyre using. take care, melinda :) Chajonshim Martial Arts Academy _www.cjmaa.com_ (http://www.cjmaa.com/) 1.573.673.2769 Chajonshim Martial Arts Supply _www.cjmas.com_ (http://www.cjmas.com/) 1.877.847.4072 --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 11:51:54 -0400 From: aburrese@aol.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Pictures of Korea trip Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Thomas, Thank you for posting the pictures. Looks like you had a great time. Makes me wish I was over there. I was there just last September, but my wife and Cosette are over there right now and I wish I was with them. Glad you had a great trip, and thank you for sharing. Alain www.burrese.com For Your Safety - For Your Success --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 11:28:42 -0700 From: The_Dojang To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?WINDOWS-1252?Q?Why_hasn=92t_the_world_body_recognised_MTF=3F? = Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Taekwondo: Why hasn't the world body recognised MTF? By RIZAL HASHIM April 25 Malay Mail Online THE taekwondo impasse is not about the Malaysian Taekwondo Association (MTA) but the newly-formed Malaysian Taekwondo Federation (MTF) being accepted by the world body, according to the Sports Commissioner. Tan Sri Elyas Omar said the question at hand is why MTF are not getting the recognition from the World Taekwondo Federation (WTF). "As the far as the law is concerned, MTA does not exist anymore. And the Commissioner's office has registered MTF as the new governing body. "Rightly or wrongly, I have applied the law in accordance with the Sports Development Act passed by Parliament in 1997. "There is no feud between MTA and my office. There are two issues here, that we have to wait for the courts to decide on MTA's appeal and that has nothing to do with the Commissioner. Secondly the issue concerns WTF's non-acceptance of MTF, which is a mystery to me," said Elyas, responding to Mailsport's report on Monday that the impasse between him and the MTA could deny top exponents from competing in four major tournaments, including the Asian Games in Doha. Malaysia's pool of elite exponents, already barred from competing in the ongoing Asian Championship in Bangkok, are likely to miss four more major tournaments – the 6th World Junior Championship in Vietnam in July, the 1st World Poomsae in South Korea and the World Cup team championship in Bangkok in September and the Asiad in Qatar – as long as the MTA remain marooned in no man's land. Contrary to reports that the Olympic Council of Malaysia (OCM) were given the right to become the interim governing body in place of the de-registered MTA, the World Taekwondo Federation (WTF) have stated otherwise. OCM secretary Datuk Sieh Kok Chi confirmed WTF had stated that OCM's role as the interim care-taker of the sport in Malaysia did not extend beyond the SEA Games in Manila. "WTF sent us a letter in December stating they would no longer delegate the responsibility of handling taekwondo matters to OCM after the Manila SEA Games," said Kok Chi. MTF, headed by Datuk Nazim Razak, are seeking to replace MTA as the governing body for taekwondo practicing the WTF-system after their registration was approved by Elyas on Oct 14 last year. This followed Elyas' decision to de-register MTA on May 6 last year for not adhering to his instructions to make certain amendments to the body's constitution. MTA filed a civil case with the High Court regarding the revocation of their registration, which is now subject to an appeal at the Court of Appeal. --__--__-- Message: 10 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Black Belts and Age To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 11:56:50 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > In regards to the seminar at our school, yes Sir, the young man had a lot > of ability, training, and talent. He certainly has the ability of being a > excellent instructor. But my beef, and part of it is within myself, is > how we set age limits of 8, 10, 12, 20, (whatever) when it's obviously not > the norm within the very art we're teaching when we look at the Korea > based schools. Regardless, at our school, we have self imposed minimum > age limits and we'll stick to them. I just find it ironic and a bit > perplexing. And I find the whole argument about "how it's done in the > homeland" hypocritical. FWIW, one of the better students I EVER encountered was a seven year old TKD 1st gup. Strange or not, if it weren't for his size you might have thought he was 20 years old. You could hold a discussion with him on current events, politics in addition to martial arts. Both of his parents were Doctors and HKD students, so I suspect that had something to do with it. Point being... there are exceptions like this, but they are very rare imho. As for how it is in Korea, I personally see no need to lower our own standards just because 'that is the way it is today in Korea'. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. 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