Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 03:02:37 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 13 #184 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,100 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. RE: Black Belts and Age (Rick Clark) 2. the way things are.... (J R Hilland) 3. Re: young blackbelts (Wes Heaps) 4. RE: Black Belts and Age (Thomas Gordon) 5. RE: Black Belts and Age (Thomas Gordon) 6. Re: Re: young blackbelts (Ray) 7. Standards and such.. (Greenbrier Tae Kwon Do Academy) 8. Re: Standards and such.. (Matt Munson) 9. RE: Black Belts and Age (steven riggs) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 15:15:57 -0400 From: "Rick Clark" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Black Belts and Age To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Ray, >As for how it is in Korea, I personally see no need to lower our own standards just because 'that is the way it is today in Korea'. > >Ray Terry I don't think it's a problem of today Ray, the standards in the Orient have been lower since I started the martial arts back in 1962. When I was in Korea in 1969 I know for a fact you could make 1st dan in 12 months, with 2 or 3 classes of 1 hour each. The basic problem is our students will always be lower in rank and seniority than those who achieve rank in Korea, Japan, Okinawa. Now I know everyone says rank is not a big deal and I agree to a point. But when you have someone outrank you who was in diapers when you were a 1st dan there is a problem. Rick Clark www.ao-denkou-kai.org --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "J R Hilland" To: Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 14:26:21 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] the way things are.... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <<>> Amen!!! JRH www.rrhapkido.com --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 14:36:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Wes Heaps To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: young blackbelts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net What do you mean by "lowering our standards". From what ive seen, in general, the korean kids work ten times as hard as our own. There are exceptions but not many. Also, I don't know why some people are so hung up on age/rank in MA. from my personal experience the younger blackbelts have to work harder than the adults(25+) to achieve their rank. After all, adults only have work, maybe family to consider. Try getting a dual major, and working, and then finding time to train.I went to college earning my B.S. chem.E and mech.E, while working 45hrs a week,to pay to for it, while testing for my 2nd dahn.I was 17 at the time. I apologize if this offend anybody, but i get upset when someone says younger black belts can't defend themselves against adults, because i did when i was 12. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Thomas Gordon" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Black Belts and Age Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 16:57:19 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "The basic problem is our students will always be lower in rank and seniority than those who achieve rank in Korea, Japan, Okinawa." That's part of the point I was trying to make. It's like self inflicted racism and then it seems to be fueled on by organizations like KKW that seem to promote Koreans over others. "Now I know everyone says rank is not a big deal and I agree to a point." To the point I agree is, in the grand scheme of things, rank doesn't matter. Grand scheme of things being my family and friends. In the martial art world, as school owners/instructors, rank means a lot. If not, why does almost everyone with any rank have it on their website? Why do some people get bent out of shape when Grandmaster Clown is promoted by the same guy that promoted them? Some even give long details of linage on their site. I do because I'm proud of the people I tested in front of and it lets the novice know that I'm not self appointed. Another favorite of mine...seeing someone list "ABC Taekwondo" as promoting them only to find out they are the founders of ABC Taekwondo. What a joke. For some, they only list rank because they know they were promoted by a fraud/joke or they may have missed a few degrees here or there. Thomas Gordon Florida --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Thomas Gordon" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Black Belts and Age Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 16:57:43 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "As for how it is in Korea, I personally see no need to lower our own standards just because 'that is the way it is today in Korea'." Master Terry, To me, that's the point, I think "what makes a black belt" has been romanticized by us Westerns and fueled on by some of the Asians coming to the states in an effort to make themselves look more important AND to keep the student to keep coming back for years of lessons. Not the legitimate ones but the ones who left Korea/Japan/China as first/second degrees and landed in the states as masters. Just a few months ago, I personally saw a man go from being an unqualified fourth degree to a sixth or seventh degree. Heck, I've been gone a few weeks, who knows what he is now. He's Korean - and apparently, that's enough. It's annoying in the sense that I've gotten a ton more knowledge from a second degree than this clown could ever hope to instill in anyone. A friend of the family told me he was able to make black belt while on a TDY in Korea. It was only a year long TDY. This was in the mid 70's. A cousin of mine received his first degree in Hakko-Ryu Ju Jitsu in the early 70's. I have a guide written by Shihan James Benko. (Small pink pamphlet published in 1969 http://www.robertg.com/hakkoryu.htm). If I remember correctly, he told me he received his black belt in about 18 months going twice a week. I agree, we won't lower our standards either. Thomas Gordon Florida --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: young blackbelts To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 18:33:05 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Also, I don't know why some people are so hung up on > age/rank in MA. from my personal experience the > younger blackbelts have to work harder than the > adults(25+) to achieve their rank. After all, adults > only have work, maybe family to consider. Try getting > a dual major, and working, and then finding time to > train.I went to college earning my B.S. chem.E and > mech.E, while working 45hrs a week,to pay to for it, > while testing for my 2nd dahn.I was 17 at the time. Ahh, to ONLY be a working student again, dual or triple major, matters not. Life seemed so busy then. Little did I realize that those were the easy days. I doubt it is the 17 yr old 2nd dans that bother people so much. It is the 7 yr old 2nd dans... We should not lower our standards, regardless of what happens in Korea. We should strive to be better than, not equal to... Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Greenbrier Tae Kwon Do Academy" To: "Dojang Digest" Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 22:30:58 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Standards and such.. Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I'm coming out of lurk mode to throw my two cents on a couple of comments made in this last edition of DD that I can really relate to. First, Klaas said: "Fourth, because it is part of a school's income." and "If you promise the parent that their kid can make it to 1st dan in 2 years in your school but the guy teaching at the gym next to yours promises he can do it in 1. You will have to adjust to keep your income. Korea is probably the place where they invested McDojangs." and "And with the current standards 'knowing the basics' isn't that much." Second, Ray said: "As for how it is in Korea, I personally see no need to lower our own standards just because 'that is the way it is today in Korea'." Before I get started just let me say that I in no means intend to offend any Koreans on this list and I am going to go out on a limb to make some comments that will pertain to a nearby TKD school whose members may or may not be members of this list as well. But.... I totally agree with all of these statements as I'm sure most of you do. I live and teach TKD in a rural part of Southeastern West Virginia in Lewisburg. My first instructor drilled us constantly on the basics. He was very adamant about instilling in us a standard for others to follow. It must have dug into my brain because I do the very same thing today. I believe that an instructor's job is to encourage and train his/her students to be better than THEY are. That way there is no lowering of standards. After earning my Black Belt I had the honor of being stationed in Korea (Pan Mun Jom) and trained with the local Master there. This was back in 1993 and the number of children Black Belts at that time was high too, imho. I witnessed a demo while there by the local TKD club in which 80% of the demonstrators were children(ages 7 and up). The adults were ROK soldiers who joined in. The ROK soldiers due to their intense level of discipline were VERY impressing with their TKD skills. The regular TKD school students....not so much. Maybe I expected too much, I don't know. The thing that stood out though was the number of children with Black Belts. Up until that point I had never really seen any kids with Black Belts. It was obvious that children were keeping his school alive. Up until about a year ago, my school was the only "official" TKD school in a 3 county area. Then, without mentioning any names, a pretty well known Korean Master here on the east coast, opens a school about one mile from me. He of course does not run the school but brought in some young 5th Dan Korean to run the show for him. Of course I have no problem with this because everyone has the right to open a business, yadda yadda yadda... But was does bother me is that they claim all this world class prestige and say that they are the only ones to teach "real" TKD because they are Korean and blah blah blah. I do not personally know the guy who is running that school nor do I know any of the assistant instructors; nor do I really care to. But here is what I DO know: Since that school has opened I have lost only 2 students to that school. One I was sorry to lose, one I was not. And I have gained 5 of theirs and about 4 others wanting to come and observe my classes.. Why?? Well from what I am told by the parents who have brought their children to me is because of my "high standards", especially on tests. It seems this "prestigious, Korean-run" dojang likes to charge $90 - $100/month for classes and then give belts away on test day for simply showing up. (By the way, I charge only $45/month and I could go on and on why, but won't now.) So, this talk about standards has really gotten my attention. Cudos to Ray for his comment about us not lowering our standards. People really do like high standards. For those who don't I just tell them "Well, ya know, there's always that OTHER school about a mile from here.." :) Thank you for your time. James Morgan GTKDA Lewisburg, WV --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 20:04:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Matt Munson Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Standards and such.. To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Morgan, I really enjoyed what you shared here. I don't know if it's just me, but it seems over the last couple years more and more TKD practitioners, instructors and schools are waking up to exactly these issues being discussed here. I would hope that the time of the TKD McDojang is coming to a close. But, I do realize this may just be my wishfull thinking. Respectfully, Matt Munson Greenbrier Tae Kwon Do Academy wrote: I'm coming out of lurk mode to throw my two cents on a couple of comments made in this last edition of DD that I can really relate to. First, Klaas said: "Fourth, because it is part of a school's income." and "If you promise the parent that their kid can make it to 1st dan in 2 years in your school but the guy teaching at the gym next to yours promises he can do it in 1. You will have to adjust to keep your income. Korea is probably the place where they invested McDojangs." and "And with the current standards 'knowing the basics' isn't that much." Second, Ray said: "As for how it is in Korea, I personally see no need to lower our own standards just because 'that is the way it is today in Korea'." Before I get started just let me say that I in no means intend to offend any Koreans on this list and I am going to go out on a limb to make some comments that will pertain to a nearby TKD school whose members may or may not be members of this list as well. But.... I totally agree with all of these statements as I'm sure most of you do. I live and teach TKD in a rural part of Southeastern West Virginia in Lewisburg. My first instructor drilled us constantly on the basics. He was very adamant about instilling in us a standard for others to follow. It must have dug into my brain because I do the very same thing today. I believe that an instructor's job is to encourage and train his/her students to be better than THEY are. That way there is no lowering of standards. After earning my Black Belt I had the honor of being stationed in Korea (Pan Mun Jom) and trained with the local Master there. This was back in 1993 and the number of children Black Belts at that time was high too, imho. I witnessed a demo while there by the local TKD club in which 80% of the demonstrators were children(ages 7 and up). The adults were ROK soldiers who joined in. The ROK soldiers due to their intense level of discipline were VERY impressing with their TKD skills. The regular TKD school students....not so much. Maybe I expected too much, I don't know. The thing that stood out though was the number of children with Black Belts. Up until that point I had never really seen any kids with Black Belts. It was obvious that children were keeping his school alive. Up until about a year ago, my school was the only "official" TKD school in a 3 county area. Then, without mentioning any names, a pretty well known Korean Master here on the east coast, opens a school about one mile from me. He of course does not run the school but brought in some young 5th Dan Korean to run the show for him. Of course I have no problem with this because everyone has the right to open a business, yadda yadda yadda... But was does bother me is that they claim all this world class prestige and say that they are the only ones to teach "real" TKD because they are Korean and blah blah blah. I do not personally know the guy who is running that school nor do I know any of the assistant instructors; nor do I really care to. But here is what I DO know: Since that school has opened I have lost only 2 students to that school. One I was sorry to lose, one I was not. And I have gained 5 of theirs and about 4 others wanting to come and observe my classes.. Why?? Well from what I am told by the parents who have brought their children to me is because of my "high standards", especially on tests. It seems this "prestigious, Korean-run" dojang likes to charge $90 - $100/month for classes and then give belts away on test day for simply showing up. (By the way, I charge only $45/month and I could go on and on why, but won't now.) So, this talk about standards has really gotten my attention. Cudos to Ray for his comment about us not lowering our standards. People really do like high standards. For those who don't I just tell them "Well, ya know, there's always that OTHER school about a mile from here.." :) Thank you for your time. James Morgan GTKDA Lewisburg, WV _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --------------------------------- New Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC and save big. --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 20:49:46 -0700 (PDT) From: steven riggs Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Black Belts and Age To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I think the standards should never be lowered but if anything the bar needs to be raised. Just because something is so in Korea is almost irrelevant to me. I want standards such that when someone walks into my dojang they are impressed with the caliber of student. I would rather have a green belt that looked as good as most brown or red belts than the other way around. I had a transfer student from another state that was a 3rd gup and whose previous instructor told him he was within one year of making chodan. His skill level was more like an 8th gup yellow or orange belt. There have been way to many Korean young men in their 20's getting off the plane with 6th dans and not the skill nor the knowledge to reflect it. We do not need to emulate that but rather we need to set a standard for the world that defines excellence. Steven Riggs Rick Clark wrote: Hi Ray, >As for how it is in Korea, I personally see no need to lower our own standards just because 'that is the way it is today in Korea'. > >Ray Terry I don't think it's a problem of today Ray, the standards in the Orient have been lower since I started the martial arts back in 1962. When I was in Korea in 1969 I know for a fact you could make 1st dan in 12 months, with 2 or 3 classes of 1 hour each. The basic problem is our students will always be lower in rank and seniority than those who achieve rank in Korea, Japan, Okinawa. Now I know everyone says rank is not a big deal and I agree to a point. But when you have someone outrank you who was in diapers when you were a 1st dan there is a problem. Rick Clark www.ao-denkou-kai.org _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest