Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 17:43:20 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 13 #187 - 10 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,100 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. RE: TKD Views (Joseph Cheavens) 2. Re: Re: Rank that smelled rank (randyd1952@aol.com) 3. Re: ranking (Klaas Barends) 4. RE: Real Teaching! (J R Hilland) 5. Black belts (Jye nigma) 6. Re: Bobsled fed ties the USTU (Ray) 7. Final 20 Spots (The_Dojang) 8. U.S. National Team Members Earn Seven Medals (The_Dojang) 9. Forms interpretations (instructor@realtaekwondo.com) 10. Re: Forms interpretations (Ray) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Joseph Cheavens" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] TKD Views Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 00:38:06 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Wood: Thank you for your response. It sounds to me like your dojang does not fall into the category of sport style TKD that I was referring to. I have trained at both traditional and sport style dojang, so let me offer my perspective. Dojang on what I consider to be the traditional end of the spectrum have a curriculum that is ballanced between teaching basic tecniques (including a lot of hand techniques), one step sparring, self defense techniques (e.g. jujitsu based joint locks and throws), poomse, and free sparring that allows for hand techniques to the head, sweeps, and take downs for advanced belts. Dojang that I consider to be on the sport end of the spectrum have a curriculum focused around training for competitions: basic techniques w/o much hand techniques, lots of kicking drills using focus paddles, speed drills, hogu drills (i.e. one step sparring wearing hogus and dedicated to fighting techniques used in the ring under WTF rules), and of course free sparring under WTF rules (i.e. no hands to the head and absolutely no sweeps or takedowns). In these sports style dojang, forms are taught almost as an after thought and the focus is on looking good doing the forms and not on the practical application of the techniques in the form. In other words, poomse becomes a dance routine with a martial arts flavor. Most dojang fall somewhere between these two ends of the spectrum, with the traditional schools being a bit more rare in my experience than those that fall more towards the sport side of the spectrum. Now, I don't have any problems with training for competition per se. After all, I used to compete and was fairly good at one time. However, my problem is with dojang that focus on the sport style TKD that tell their students at the same time that they are learning an effective system of self defense. They are not. They are learning how to compete in a highly stylized form of ritual combat that teaches some very bad habits in terms of "real" fighting. First off, by disallowing hands to the head, students don't learn how to avoid punches to the head, which is probably the most commonly used unarmed attack used the world over. Watch any TKD tournament and you'll notice that almost all of the fighers keep their hands down around their waists and actually drop them down and forwar out to the sides when they get in close. Under WTF rules, this makes sense. Because they don't have to worry about punches to the head, keeping their hands up needlesly burns energy that can be better used kicking or avoiding kicks (blocks have pretty much become out-moded in modern sport style TKD). When they get in close, they want to keep their hands forward and out to the sides both to avoid being called for grabbing their opponent, but more importantly as a means to prevent their opponent from using a crescent kick or any other close quarters kicking technique. Because punches are not allowed to the head, these are the only close quarters strikes they have to worry about. In a real fight, these habits will get them knocked out very quicly. Second, because WTF rules don't allow for sweeps or takedowns, sport style fighters tend to have a high stance and bounce a lot in their stance in order to generate more speed in their kicks and to minimize telegraphing their kicks. This leaves them extremely vulnerable to sweeps and takedowns. Third, by not studying the practical applications of poomse, sports style dojang limit the arsenal of their students to the kicks that they learn to use in sparring. Fourth, focusing on training for competitions promotes a selfish and egotisctical attitude by teaching that the goal is to "win" and to "beat" one's opponent. Most traditional martial arts try and teach students to be humble and put the needs of others before oneself. Now, all that said, I do see some value in WTF style sparring. It teaches continuous motion, as opposed to stopping the attack as soon as someone has landed a kick or punch as in point style sparring. Also, the full contact aspect teaches the practitioner how to take a hit and keep fighting. However, if this becomes the main focus of the training, then the students will also learn the bad habits that I have listed above. If the goal of the student is to learn how to compete in WTF/Olympic style events, then that is all fine and dandy. However, if their goal is to learn a martial art for personal growth and self defense as well, then focusing entirely on training for WTF/Olympic style fighting is not going to serve their interests. Just my very humble opinion on these matters. Joe Cheavens >From: "rwood" >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >Subject: [The_Dojang] TKD Views >Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 08:44:59 -0500 > >Mr. Cheavens > >Sir, I have enjoyed your writings on the history of Korean >Martial arts posted here on the DD and I look forward to >more of them. Sir, you state the focus on competition has >diluted TKD as a martial art. With respect sir, that is >painting with a rather broad brush. I am a TKD practitioner >(4th Keup) and the style I study (if that is the right word) >is descended from Kong Soo and the early (50’s and 60’s) >era of TKD development. I have studied Okinawan style >karate (OSK) before and I can see the “family” >resemblance between the TKD I study and OSK in the deep >stances, hard blocks, and punching techniques. My >instructors have time and again pointed out that the high >flying kicks we use in the Dojang have little or no >application in the real world, but are used mostly for >strengthening and flexibility improvement. To be sure some >organizations have diluted TKD to the point of sport rather >than martial art. But would you make the same judgment of >Judo or Boxing, both an Olympic sport. At an Olympic style >event, TKD; Judo; and Boxing conform to an Olympic standard >which may be different than other organizations use when >awarding points or grading. > > >IHS, > >Rob > >He who ignores disciple comes to poverty and shame, >but whoever heeds correction is honored. >Proverbs 13:18 > > > > >This electronic communication is from Moberly Public Schools, >and is confidential, privileged, and intended only for the >use of the recipient(s) named above. If you are not the >intended recipient, unauthorized disclosure, distribution, >or use of the contents of this transmission is strictly prohibited. >If you have received this message in error, please notify the >CIS Department immediately at the following e-mail address: >tech@moberly.k12.mo.us or by calling 660-269-2665. >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 01:57:43 -0400 From: randyd1952@aol.com Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Rank that smelled rank To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Dojang, My sabunim says you are a black belt before you achieve the belt -- it is an attitude as much as a mastery of techniques. If it is an art, then each step should be savored, held, pondered, etc. And while it does make sense and seem just that the student who practices daily and works hard should promote faster than a student who attends twice a week, does more water and sunshine make a tree grow faster? (Less philosophically, I am really impressed by and get a real kick out of those 7 year old black belts who can do continuous tornado kicks....) Doc -----Original Message----- From: Luc Nguyen To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sent: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 23:56:09 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Rank that smelled rank I think that time in rank should only be a guideline. We should focus more on the ability of the invidual, the maturity, the skill set, and how s/he compare with other “x Dan” out there. I see it like a 4 year college degree doesn’t have to be completed in 4 years. It can be 5 or 3 years depending on the individual ability. It’s not fair for the invidual who works hard and complete all the requirements and not allowed to advance or graduate just because s/he has not been in college for 4 years yet. Actually in MAs more than in college, we should promote the individual who worked hard, completed the curriculum early because it looks bad to have a 1st Dan beat up a 2nd Dan in sparring every day, can perform the pattern better, have a better attitude, etc. That 1st Dan should be promoted ahead of time, if for nothing else than to set an example for others to work harder. What other reason are there to keep this 1st Dan from being promoted except to make more money off him/her? LTN > >From: "Gordon" >To: >Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 09:35:06 -0500 >Subject: [The_Dojang] Rank that smelled rank >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > >When I was six months away from 3rd Dan, I had a fellow student that was 4 plus years behind me in rank (he >had just received 1st Dan) tell me that since he trained 6 days a week now, he would shorten his time >training. In his words; "If I train only twice a week, it would take me 2 years to get to 2nd Dan but, if I >train 6 days a week, I can shorten this to only one year." >I told him that I didn't think that was right but, I let it go as ego on my part or him just strutting in >front of me. Since this made me think less of him, I avoided his conversations for a while. (After all, I >was busy training hard, building my stamina for the upcoming test) -a shameful excuse but still true. Sure >enough, in a year's time he tested for 2nd Dan. >Although I respected my Sah Bum Nim (still do, a good man) at the time, I felt cheated. He got in one year, >what took me 2 and a half years. Has anyone else heard of this? Train more often - equals - shorten your >time requirement? > >Gordon Okerstrom > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.4.6/324 - Release Date: 4/25/2006 _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 3 From: Klaas Barends Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 12:18:49 +0200 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: ranking Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > I think that time in rank should only be a guideline. I think it is a AND-AND situation, not a OR-OR situation. Both technique AND time in rank should be your guideline Not just time and not just technique. Both of them. Every year I think 'Hey, I got those techniques figured out', But when I look back at what I knew 2, 3, 4, or more years ago...I probably have a lot more time ahead of me to really come to the full understanding of those techniques'. Only time in the arts gives you that, together with constant training of course. -- kind regards, Klaas Barends www.hapkidoforum.com --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "J R Hilland" To: Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 10:35:28 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Real Teaching! Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Brooke: I had assumed that James was joking. But you never know... BTW, very well said. JRH www.rrhapkido.com <<>> --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 11:36:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Black belts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ok we've been discussing black belts for a while and I just saw the funniest thing. On Judge Mathis, 2 roommates had some type of disagreement and so we're suing each other. Well the plantiff was saying the defendant moved in an EX-con who almost put out his eye, and that the defendant jumped on him and held him down while the ex-con tried to put out his eye....after judge mathis gave his ruling...lol. the defendant turned to the plantiff and said, "you're lucky I didn't jump on you because I'm a 2nd degree blackbelt and I would have kicked the tail end out of you" lol!!! I laughed so hard. I can't even count all the times I've heard something similar and that same "X degree blackbelt" got their a$$ handed to them...lol Jye --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. PC-to-Phone calls for ridiculously low rates. --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Bobsled fed ties the USTU To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 14:31:21 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > I've been out of the loop on a ot of this scandal stuf. What happened with > the USTU? I noticed recently that there was a name change. Also, whats the > dope on the scandals at the Kukkiwon? The USTU leadership was essentially fired and replaced by USOC officials. It now goes under the name USA Taekwondo, fits better with USA Judo, USA Boxing, etc. The USOC heads brought in to clean things up have now been replaced with new mgmt. USAT seems on the path to recovery. I know the Kukkiwon wanted to see more non-Koreans involved in USAT leadership and now they have it. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 14:36:36 -0700 From: The_Dojang To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Final 20 Spots Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net April 26, 2006 USA Taekwondo has opened up the final 20 spots for the upcoming Athlete Development Camp at the Olympic Training Center in Colorado Springs to all interested athletes. The camp will run from June 5-9, 2006, with a Level I – Introducing Sport Taekwondo Seminar running from June 6-8. Both the USAT camp and seminar are hosted and delivered by the High Level Training Center Program. The purpose of the Athlete Development Camp is to develop and reinforce the athlete pipeline. The cost of the camp is $595, but USA Taekwondo school owners will receive a discounted price of $495. The final deadline for camp registrations is May 22, 2006. Ten spaces will be reserved for USAT Coaching Identification & Development Program presenters, who will be selected from submitted applications and trained at the camp. All camp-goers will reside at the Olympic Training Center and must be at least 14 years old. Camp Schedule Monday, June 5 Athlete Arrival. 5pm Athlete Meeting 6pm-8:30pm Training June 6, 7 and 8 8am Breakfast 9am-11:30am Training 12pm-1pm Lunch 2pm-4:30pm Training 5:30pm-6:30pm Dinner 7:30pm-9:30pm Evening Activity June 9 8am Breakfast 9am-12pm Evaluations 12pm Athletes Depart To register for the Athlete Development Camp, June 5-9, please go to: http://www.highleveltraining.com/ Level I – Introducing Sport Taekwondo Seminar Schedule Tuesday, June 6 3pm-7pm Seminar Instruction Wednesday, June 7 1pm-5pm Competency Testing with camp participants Thursday, June 8 3pm-7pm Seminar Instruction & Conclusion To register for the Level I – Introducing Sport Taekwondo Seminar, please go to: http://www.usa-taekwondo.us/ --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 14:40:40 -0700 From: The_Dojang To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] U.S. National Team Members Earn Seven Medals Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net U.S. National Team Members Earn Seven Medals at German Open April 25, 2006 U.S. National Team members won three silver medals and four bronze medals at this weekend's German Open in Bonn, Germany. Men's flyweight Tim Thackrey (Tarzana, Calif.), women's welterweight Simona Hradil (Winnetka, Calif.), and women's bantamweight Eleni Koutsilianos (Astoria, N.Y.), all Senior National Team members, captured silver medals while Junior National Team members Christina Johnson (Galloway Township, N.J.), Kasey Mallard (Dallas, Texas), Daren Tubbs (Dallas, Texas) and Maia Eubanks (Indianapolis, Ind.) earned bronze medals. The U.S. placed third in the overall team standings. Other U.S. medalists included Lauren Katz winning gold in the junior female bantamweight division; Brandi Powers winning gold in junior female light heavyweight; Jermaine James winning gold in junior male lightweight; Beatrice Kelly winning silver in junior female featherweight; David Bartlett winning silver in senior male lightweight; Athena Morrow winning bronze in senior female finweight; and Tal Moriah winning bronze in senior male featherweight --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 16:28:26 -0700 From: instructor@realtaekwondo.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Forms interpretations Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net The only thing is in chinese arts the combat apps from forms are taught all the time. There are schools of TKD that don't teach the combat apps from the forms, or better started, they don't teach the meaning of movements in forms. Jye You are very right Jye, sadly enough that is the case with more than 90% of schools in the USA. Again, this change came about in the 80's as schools started to water down material and making it easier for the large influx of children. Those kids grew up and became instructors and the cycle kept repeating itself. It was very rewarding financially, but left the system empty. Its sad that Taekwondo has such a bad reputation for not teaching self-defense/combat. I see many TKD instructors cross training in other systems to learn self defense skills to teach their students, when all they have to do is seek out instructors teaching TKD the traditional/combative way. --__--__-- Message: 10 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Forms interpretations To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 17:31:49 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > You are very right Jye, sadly enough that is the case with more than 90% of > schools in the USA. Again, this change came about in the 80's as schools > started to water down material and making it easier for the large influx of > children. Those kids grew up and became instructors and the cycle kept > repeating itself. It was very rewarding financially, but left the system > empty. Since we frequently talk about how kids (for sake of discussion let us define that as under 14 years of age) have 'influenced' martial arts schools, for better or worse. Who here is a student at, or instructor at, or owner of a dojang that only has students that are 14 or older? i.e. only has 'adult' students. Don't get too hung up on the specific age here, whether it be 12 or 15 or ?? The real question is... is your school successful with 'adult' only students? Successful = operates in the black, never in the red. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest