Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 10:08:18 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 13 #189 - 12 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on plus11.host4u.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.9 required=5.0 tests=ADULT_SITE,EXCUSE_16, LINES_OF_YELLING,NO_REAL_NAME,OFFERS_ETC autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,100 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. A ROOM FULL OF EGO (TKDROUNDHOUSEKIC@cs.com) 2. RE: from another group: wtf vs itf (PETER.MCDONALDSMITH@london-fire.gov.uk) 3. Successful commercial school (Master Lugo) 4. RE: Kids vs. Adults (michael tomlinson) 5. RE: Kids vs. Adults (Thomas Gordon) 6. Fight Your Fight (rwood) 7. Re: Successful commercial school (Alida) 8. Minimum ages (Tom Kennelly) 9. ITF vs. WTF? (Bert Edens) 10. Re: Kids vs Adults (aburrese@aol.com) 11. RE: Kids vs. Adults (joconnor@cybermesa.com) 12. Time in rank (Rudy Timmerman) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: TKDROUNDHOUSEKIC@cs.com Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 03:39:28 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] A ROOM FULL OF EGO Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net My instructor has the biggest ego I have ever seen. I am not the only one who has noticed it. I am good friends with him or should I say was good friends. I want to tell him before I quit and others quit. To tell Not to tell that is the question has anyone else had this problem with an instructor. --__--__-- Message: 2 Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] from another group: wtf vs itf Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 13:21:58 +0100 From: To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Being an ITF guy myself I have fought against wtf it was tough but by no means unbeatable. ITF in my opinion is far superior for overall fighting. I have proven this against many a thai fighter Peter RULDS2? -----Original Message----- From: Jye nigma [mailto:kingjye@yahoo.com] Sent: 28 April 2006 06:42 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net; itf-taekwondo@yahoogroups.com Subject: [The_Dojang] from another group: wtf vs itf I got this from another group and wanted to see what yo9u guys thought: " was just at a TKD tournament where I saw a couple of national level ITF guys mix it up with a WTF olympic hopeful (whose name I will release pending his acceptence onto the Canadian team). Now...I used to dis ITF sparring when compared with WTF. Mainly because as an ITF kinda guy, I had trouble with WTF rules/fighters. That said, when the shoe is on the other foot, the WTF guy was all but helpless in the ring against his ITF counterparts. It seems the WTF techniques were stopped easily by checking-kicks. I'd like to hear what TKD guys have to say about this." --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less. _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang **************************************************************************** SMOKE ALARMS SAVE LIVES Go to London Fire at www.london-fire.gov.uk/firesafety This email is confidential to the addressee only. If you do not believe that you are the intended addressee, do not use, pass on or copy it in any way. If you have received it in error, please delete it immediately and telephone the supplied number, reversing the charges if necessary. --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: 28 Apr 2006 12:47:13 -0000 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: "Master Lugo" Subject: [The_Dojang] Successful commercial school Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Its always interesting how does who never taken the plunge to own and operate a school take the high horse and scream "SELLING OUT" to school owner's. I teach full time and find it very challenging on some months to make ends meet, nevertheless I always try to give back to the community with discounted prices. Then again, students take advantage of the school and my good nature by sometimes not fulfilling their responsibilities. I now do not give anyone a free or low cost ride, if you want to train with me at my school you will have to pay! You want a discount go to the other nearest school , I'm sure in no time they will go out of business. --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Kids vs. Adults Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 12:55:34 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I totally agee with J.R. on this...just my thing but I won't teach Hapkido to any kids....to enter class I have had a few under 16 but they were accompanied by their parents and most of them had prior black belts in TKD or TSD before they even tried to start Hapkido Michael Tomlinson >From: "J.R. West" >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >To: >Subject: [The_Dojang] Kids vs. Adults >Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 20:31:38 -0500 > >"Who here is a student at, or instructor at, or owner of a dojang that only >has students that are 14 or older? i.e. only has 'adult' students." >Ray Terry >rterry@idiom.com > >Ray: as you know, that would be me.....I have a black belt that has a small >kids class at my school (less than 10), but I do only adults, and we only >did kids for a few years while my wife was healthy, and believe me, it was >all her idea........From 1973 to 1991, no-one trained under the age of 15, >but now I'll drop down to 12 if the kid can focus and be treated as an >adult. The youngest dan grade I have will be 16 this summer, and most of >my >dan holders are much older (like me).....JRWest www.hapkido.com >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 08:49:08 -0500 (CDT) Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Kids vs. Adults From: "Thomas Gordon" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "I totally agee with J.R. on this...just my thing but I won't teach Hapkido to any kids....to enter class I have had a few under 16 but they were accompanied by their parents and most of them had prior black belts in TKD or TSD before they even tried to start Hapkido" Mr. Tomlinson, With due respect, the question posed by Master Terry was how many have a successful school that only teach adults? Successful as in the school supports your home (as in a viable income) and itself. A lot of schools teach adults only on a part time basis, out of a gym/YMCA/CommunityCenter, or from their home. I've seen very, very few adult only schools that make it. Those that do generally have outside income by selling their programs/books/consulting, seminars, or organizational fees. Thomas Gordon Florida --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "rwood" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 08:51:00 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Fight Your Fight Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net If kicking is getting you no where, close and punch him in the chest! IHS, Rob He who ignores disciple comes to poverty and shame, but whoever heeds correction is honored. Proverbs 13:18 This electronic communication is from Moberly Public Schools, and is confidential, privileged, and intended only for the use of the recipient(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient, unauthorized disclosure, distribution, or use of the contents of this transmission is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify the CIS Department immediately at the following e-mail address: tech@moberly.k12.mo.us or by calling 660-269-2665. --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 09:56:02 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) From: "Alida" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Successful commercial school Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net It is very easy to take advantage of someone's good and giving nature, and there are too many people who are only too willing to do so. We currently have a situation that we're trying to figure out how to address Part of it stems from our owner's decision to allow the 4th family member to train for free. However, we now have a family that has five members training, from the preschool program through the adults, and they are there six days a week. I would like to see the fee schedule overhauled, and that is something else being discussed this weekend, but how do you go about making a major change like that without losing many students immediately? Alida -------Original Message------- From: Master Lugo Date: 04/28/06 09:22:06 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Successful commercial school Its always interesting how does who never taken the plunge to own and operate a school take the high horse and scream "SELLING OUT" to school owner's. I teach full time and find it very challenging on some months to make ends meet, nevertheless I always try to give back to the community with discounted prices. Then again, students take advantage of the school and my good nature by sometimes not fulfilling their responsibilities. I now do not give anyone a free or low cost ride, if you want to train with me at my school you will have to pay! You want a discount go to the other nearest school , I'm sure in no time they will go out of business. _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.5.1/326 - Release Date: 4/27/2006 --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Tom Kennelly" To: Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 10:20:54 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Minimum ages Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net My Combat Hapkido instructor has a minimum age requirment of 18 years or older unless the prospective student is already a Black Belt in another system and then MAY take them in at a slightly longer age. At this time the class is entirely made up of adults. Tom Kennelly 2nd Dan ICHF ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray" To: Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 8:31 PM Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Forms interpretations snip > Who here is a student at, or instructor at, or owner of a dojang that only > has students that are 14 or older? i.e. only has 'adult' students. > > Don't get too hung up on the specific age here, whether it be 12 or 15 or > ?? > > The real question is... is your school successful with 'adult' only > students? Successful = operates in the black, never in the red. > > Ray Terry > rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 09:59:52 -0500 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Bert Edens Subject: [The_Dojang] ITF vs. WTF? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net At 00:54 04/28/2006, you wrote: >I got this from another group and wanted to see what yo9u guys thought: > " was just at a TKD tournament where I saw a couple of national > level ITF guys mix it up with a WTF olympic hopeful (whose name I > will release pending his acceptence onto the Canadian team). >Now...I used to dis ITF sparring when compared with WTF. Mainly >because as an ITF kinda guy, I had trouble with WTF rules/fighters. >That said, when the shoe is on the other foot, the WTF guy was all >but helpless in the ring against his ITF counterparts. >It seems the WTF techniques were stopped easily by checking-kicks. >I'd like to hear what TKD guys have to say about this." Greetings, all... As always, it depends on the competitors involved, not the style... **bows** - Bert Edens Springdale, Arkansas --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 11:39:39 -0400 From: aburrese@aol.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Kids vs Adults Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ray posted: "Who here is a student at, or instructor at, or owner of a dojang that only has students that are 14 or older? i.e. only has 'adult' students." **************************** Ray, I'm fortunate in that I don't own the place I teach. Since I teach out of a Gold's gym, the class is for adults only. (18 and up) In Korea on the other hand, they schools I train at have more kids than adults. When I am back there I train with and help teach kids of all ages. Kids are getting bigger now too. Last summer there was a high school student that weighed over 200 lbs in class. Yours in Training, Alain www.burrese.com For Your Safety - For Your Success --__--__-- Message: 11 From: joconnor@cybermesa.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Kids vs. Adults Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 09:42:08 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net This actually isn't really related to Martial Arts. As a musician I see the same thing going on in the world of music instruction. I don't know of *anyone* who teaches as a full-time,support-the-family type of private business; and nobody who can do it 'just for the art' without needing to teach a lot of pop-fluff to kids. I think it's just the nature of trying to do personal/private instruction as a career Jay O'Connor http://www.myprayerwall.com ---------- Original Message ----------- From: "Thomas Gordon" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sent: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 08:49:08 -0500 (CDT) Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Kids vs. Adults > "I totally agee with J.R. on this...just my thing but I won't teach Hapkido > to any kids....to enter class I have had a few under 16 but they were > accompanied by their parents and most of them had prior black belts > in TKD or TSD before they even tried to start Hapkido" > > Mr. Tomlinson, > > With due respect, the question posed by Master Terry was how many > have a successful school that only teach adults? Successful as in > the school supports your home (as in a viable income) and itself. A > lot of schools teach adults only on a part time basis, out of a > gym/YMCA/CommunityCenter, or from their home. > > I've seen very, very few adult only schools that make it. Those > that do generally have outside income by selling their > programs/books/consulting, seminars, or organizational fees. > > Thomas Gordon > Florida > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang ------- End of Original Message ------- --__--__-- Message: 12 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Rudy Timmerman Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 12:11:58 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Time in rank Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Gordon writes: > Has anyone else heard of this? Train more often - equals - shorten > your time > requirement? Hello Gordon. Thank you (and others) for your kind private message on my comments on age. I appreciate it, and I DO hope we will have the opportunity to train together ;) As you saw by the comments on the DD, it appears more an issue of "quality" than age for most people, and I mentioned that as a separate (and much needed to be scrutinized) issue in my original post. In fact, it has a lot to do with your above comment on time in rank. So, a kid who comes in at age 4 will need a lot of additional teaching such as listening skills etc. This will need to be ADDED to the normal curriculum and consequent time in rank. So, in my experience, very few kids will have the skill and quality etc. etc. by the time they reach 10 or 12. IF, and I say IF, they at that point have what it takes, I see no problem to give them a Junior Black Belt recognition for their efforts. In MY personal experience, I have never been able to instill the qualities I require from ANYONE (regardless of age or gender) to anyone younger than age 12, and there have been VERY few who made it. Needless to say that I am as proud of their achievements as I am of anyone who makes the dahn grade. IMHO, Time in Rank is a guideline we use to establish some quality assurance in our planned curriculum, and this time should somehow work hand in hand with the volume of the curriculum you teach. A full Hap Ki Do program seems to work well with a four to five year time in rank plan to produce a decent 1st dahn, and we all recognize variances to this plan may be required for certain individuals. Time in rank alone does not work. Some people train often and some hardly train at all, so the plan HAS to look at attendance plus skill levels and personal abilities etc. My problem with the "the more often I come the faster I get my belts" is that it does not take into consideration the fact that individuals can only absorb so much material before getting an overload (and a consequent diminished return on the material they absorb). IMHO, much repetition is required to make technique come natural, and repetition takes time. Hence, we will ALWAYS be able to recognize the quality in those who have taken the time v/s those who only learned new material without repetition. The problem then becomes one of awarding belts on the merit of just KNOWING the material v/s having worked the same material to the point it becomes second nature. The first simply produces poor quality and technique that is soon forgotten. I use the time in rank as just a part of the ingredients that determines what a person can learn and absorb. By itself, time in rank is not enough for those who show up a few times per week, and it is also not sufficient for those who attend seven days a week but have not been able to absorb the material due to overload and diminished return on their efforts. I see this a lot in seminars, where people simply forget the stuff I teach IF the host demands too much material. Alas, they are the employers, so sadly I follow their requests even though I know it will not benefit them in the long run. Rudy --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest