Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2006 03:02:13 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 13 #190 - 11 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on plus11.host4u.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.5 required=5.0 tests=ADULT_SITE,NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,100 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. ITF/Point/controlled---WTF/continuous/contact sparring (Dunn, Danny J GARRISON) 2. RE: Kids vs. Adults (michael tomlinson) 3. RE: Kids vs. Adults (michael tomlinson) 4. Re: Minimum ages (tkdtom) 5. RE: Kids vs. Adults (Thomas Gordon) 6. from another group ITF vs. WTF (sam saenz) 7. re: ROOM FULL OF EGO (Jeremy Callner) 8. Master Dan good point on time in rank and absorbtion of material (Dan Scholten) 9. Re: Master Dan good point on time in rank and absorbtion of material (steven riggs) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 11:12:30 -0500 From: "Dunn, Danny J GARRISON" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] ITF/Point/controlled---WTF/continuous/contact sparring Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jye, First, I no longer am associated with TKD, but when we have tournaments, we do point sparring. I hear a lot of bad stuff about point sparring, and just as much about wtf sparring. The real issue, in my mind anyway, is not whether you stop point spar or use wtf rules in competition, but how you are training on an everyday basis. The only time we ever point spar in my school is maybe a week before a tournament. The rest of the time it is continuous free sparring with significant contact for black belts, with hands to head, sweeps and holding all acceptable. My students always do well in point sparring, but they really like continuous sparring with hard contact. Although we don't do wtf sparring at all, I do not see it as a problem. I think the training makes the difference in either case. If the only way you spar is point sparring, you will have problems with continuous sparring. If you only train with no contact, you won't learn to make or receive contact. If you only train wtf rules, you will not be prepared for close in hand strikes to the head, or for leg checks and sweeps, ect. It always goes back to the training. Do you consider competition a game you sometimes play, or is it the object of your training? Danny Dunn <<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>> --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Kids vs. Adults Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 17:59:10 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hey my bad, you are right, I guess I hopped into the conversation at the wrong moment....kind of like riding a pogo stick thru a minefield....my apologies... Michael Tomlinson >From: "Thomas Gordon" >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Kids vs. Adults >Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 08:49:08 -0500 (CDT) > >"I totally agee with J.R. on this...just my thing but I won't teach Hapkido >to any kids....to enter class I have had a few under 16 but they were >accompanied by their parents and most of them had prior black belts in TKD >or TSD before they even tried to start Hapkido" > >Mr. Tomlinson, > >With due respect, the question posed by Master Terry was how many have a >successful school that only teach adults? Successful as in the school >supports your home (as in a viable income) and itself. A lot of schools >teach adults only on a part time basis, out of a gym/YMCA/CommunityCenter, >or from their home. > >I've seen very, very few adult only schools that make it. Those that do >generally have outside income by selling their programs/books/consulting, >seminars, or organizational fees. > >Thomas Gordon >Florida >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Kids vs. Adults Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 18:14:19 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net got to agree with you on this one....I also teach Hapkido out of a preexiisting martial arts school..."tang soo do", and before that I have taught Hapkido since 1997 in four tkd schools...always teaching adults and always basically being a sub contractor running just the Hapkido program...some of them being Korean schools owned by Koreans,,.I have seen first hand that it is dang near impossible to not have some kind of program that picks up kids at school,,etc... and teaches them...it basically is a mesh between day care and martial arts...and I might say that I don't have a problem with it and I was actually a kid at one time growing up that could have benefitted from something like that....I am a high school teacher and no offense to anyone but after coaching and teaching young ones all day long...my Hapkido class is my "me" time where I can get some hard core guys and we can just sweat, learn, and beat the crap out of each other....without the youngsters.... Michael Tomlnson >From: joconnor@cybermesa.com >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Kids vs. Adults >Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 09:42:08 -0600 > >This actually isn't really related to Martial Arts. As a musician I see >the >same thing going on in the world of music instruction. I don't know of >*anyone* who teaches as a full-time,support-the-family type of private >business; and nobody who can do it 'just for the art' without needing to >teach a lot of pop-fluff to kids. I think it's just the nature of trying >to >do personal/private instruction as a career > >Jay O'Connor >http://www.myprayerwall.com > > >---------- Original Message ----------- >From: "Thomas Gordon" >To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >Sent: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 08:49:08 -0500 (CDT) >Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Kids vs. Adults > > > "I totally agee with J.R. on this...just my thing but I won't teach >Hapkido > > to any kids....to enter class I have had a few under 16 but they were > > accompanied by their parents and most of them had prior black belts > > in TKD or TSD before they even tried to start Hapkido" > > > > Mr. Tomlinson, > > > > With due respect, the question posed by Master Terry was how many > > have a successful school that only teach adults? Successful as in > > the school supports your home (as in a viable income) and itself. A > > lot of schools teach adults only on a part time basis, out of a > > gym/YMCA/CommunityCenter, or from their home. > > > > I've seen very, very few adult only schools that make it. Those > > that do generally have outside income by selling their > > programs/books/consulting, seminars, or organizational fees. > > > > Thomas Gordon > > Florida > > _______________________________________________ > > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members > > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > > Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > > Standard disclaimers apply > > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang >------- End of Original Message ------- >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "tkdtom" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Minimum ages Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 14:35:19 -0400 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I must amend my original response based upon Thomas Gordon's clarification. The school I attend is not a standalone for profit school and the instructor does not make a living from this school. Moreover the instructor only gets testing fees and does not charge for monthly attendance however the church that provides us space has a small monthly fee. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Kennelly" To: Sent: Friday, April 28, 2006 10:20 AM Subject: [The_Dojang] Minimum ages > My Combat Hapkido instructor has a minimum age requirment of 18 years or > older unless the prospective student is already a Black Belt in another > system and then MAY take them in at a slightly longer age. At this time > the class is entirely made up of adults. > > Tom Kennelly > 2nd Dan ICHF > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ray" > To: > Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 8:31 PM > Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Forms interpretations > > > snip > >> Who here is a student at, or instructor at, or owner of a dojang that >> only >> has students that are 14 or older? i.e. only has 'adult' students. >> >> Don't get too hung up on the specific age here, whether it be 12 or 15 or >> ?? >> >> The real question is... is your school successful with 'adult' only >> students? Successful = operates in the black, never in the red. >> >> Ray Terry >> rterry@idiom.com > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 13:44:46 -0500 (CDT) Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Kids vs. Adults From: "Thomas Gordon" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "I am a high school teacher and no offense to anyone but after coaching and teaching young ones all day long...my Hapkido class is my 'me' time where I can get some hard core guys and we can just sweat, learn, and beat the crap out of each other....without the youngsters...." I gotta laugh out that. One of our instructors teaches elementary school and ONLY does adult classes unless it's an emergency. So I can empathize with your situation. In a way, it's too bad because you guys are veteran professionals at teaching minors and I learn from him every time I watch him with the kids. But I completely understand. After 30 years of teaching kids, he's got a right to pick his times to teach. Thomas Gordon Florida --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 12:12:37 -0700 (PDT) From: sam saenz To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] from another group ITF vs. WTF Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I guess the next thing for you to do is to go up against a mixed martial arts fighter and see how you do. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Jeremy Callner" To: Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 17:02:49 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] re: ROOM FULL OF EGO Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi all, I must admit, I'm a little bit hesitant to post this out of fear that my former instructors might be members of the digest and know who they are. If so, sorry. This post stuck a nerve with me. I think this is a very very common problem. I have quit two schools for this reason, and I did not tell either time. In my cases, I don't think there were any words I could have used that would have made my instructors understand. I have always felt like I did a them dis-service by not being honest about why I left, but at the same time, I actually think if I had told them, they would have thought it was me who had the ego problem. Jeremy >My instructor has the biggest ego I have ever seen. I am not the only one who >has noticed it. I am good friends with him or should I say was good friends. >I want to tell him before I quit and others quit. To tell Not to tell that is >the question has anyone else had this problem with an instructor. --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 16:57:34 -0800 From: Dan Scholten To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Master Dan good point on time in rank and absorbtion of material Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I agree with Rudy about repetition. The classic turn off and stumbling point to most western kids and people is that they cannot learn a thing in just doing it once but must do it hundreds if not thousands of times first. Our school systems in America we have to thank for that and the media. Also that some parts of basic training must be done every time for your whole life for your personal well being and development. I won't give anyone a black belt that is not committed first to their personal training and a committed desire to help share that with others by teaching. In fact most people I weed out by Green belt and it has created a lot more stability in the Dojang. People must have ability, time in rank and mental and spiritual development age appropriate. I have been horrified at the quality of students at state and national tournaments with only maybe 10-25% having good attitude and technique. Its not their fault but the nature of selling rank. --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 20:15:20 -0700 (PDT) From: steven riggs Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Master Dan good point on time in rank and absorbtion of material To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I agree with you Dan about repetition. I think that part of the problem is western culture but also the aspect of children and teenagers in particular want instant gratification. They are interested in karate and they want that skill and black belt now. I had an orange belt spar me in class one night and I had slowed down for him and he caught my leg and dumped me on my butt. He made it clear that he had beat me and now was ready to test for green belt. He could not or would not see that I was going out of my way to not hurt him, embarrass him, & was trying to work with him about his attitude not to mention how bad his basics and forms were. He often did not have money and I let him train for free to "help" him out as he was 15 and didn't have a great home life. When I told him he could not test for green belt in the next test and would have to wait at least 6 weeks while we worked on his basics and forms he quit. I know who my good students are because they come to the forefront by never complaining about doing basics each and every class and forms and all the other important parts of training that can't be cut short. I ask them rather than tell them if they would like to help a white or yellow belt work thru a problem area. Then I know because the good students, the future black belts want to help others 100% of the time. I hear from the parents how much their kids enjoy being asked to help out. Those are the students I pour myself into and stay after class and come to class early to work with. My teachers each put something of themselves into me and it is now my responsibility to pour something of myself into the ones who earn that right. One night a mother of a student really blew up about her child not being on the list for the next promotion. After all the child was as good or better as another child on the list. I had to make clear that I didn't have to test or promote anybody and I & I alone was the only person in the room who was qualified to make the evaluation. If the mother wanted to put 34 years into the arts and earn 5 black belts then we could talk. S.C. Riggs Dan Scholten wrote: I agree with Rudy about repetition. The classic turn off and stumbling point to most western kids and people is that they cannot learn a thing in just doing it once but must do it hundreds if not thousands of times first. Our school systems in America we have to thank for that and the media. Also that some parts of basic training must be done every time for your whole life for your personal well being and development. I won't give anyone a black belt that is not committed first to their personal training and a committed desire to help share that with others by teaching. In fact most people I weed out by Green belt and it has created a lot more stability in the Dojang. People must have ability, time in rank and mental and spiritual development age appropriate. I have been horrified at the quality of students at state and national tournaments with only maybe 10-25% having good attitude and technique. Its not their fault but the nature of selling rank. _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --------------------------------- Get amazing travel prices for air and hotel in one click on Yahoo! FareChase --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest