Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2006 21:33:25 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 13 #192 - 12 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,100 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. RE: No KIds (Thomas Gordon) 2. Video clips: applications for chon ji (Thomas Gordon) 3. Re: [itf-taekwondo] Video clips: applications for chon ji (Jason E. Thomas) 4. MIYAMA RYU SEMINAR GASSHUKU (Master Lugo) 5. Making a difference (Rudy Timmerman) 6. TKD Hoshinsul (Burdick, Dakin Robert) 7. Video clips: applications for chon ji (Thomas Gordon) 8. Re: Master Dan good point on time in rank and absorbtion of material (G. Vincent Castellano) 9. Re: TKD Hoshinsul (Jye nigma) 10. Master Dan reply to Steven Riggs (Dan Scholten) 11. Master Dan to Sid (Dan Scholten) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Thomas Gordon" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] No KIds Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2006 00:20:57 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Master West, Thanks for the reply. My post wasn't intended to insinuate anyone in particular. The programs/books/consulting was what I see from KravMaga, CDT, Haganah/F.I.G.H.T, and programs such as that making the bulk of their income off of avenues other than a local student base. After looking a bit closer, I see those aren't even good examples since they all offer youth programs now. I guess the money was too tempting. In regards to seminars, yes Sir, in part I was thinking of your events along with others who travel to do seminars. And I think it's a great for everyone involved. If you guys didn't travel or hold events, how would folks have the opportunity to learn? Just the same, it is supplemental income no matter how little it is. And most all of the people like yourself, Grandmaster Timmerman, Grand Master Hwang, Grandmaster Seo and the like also allow youth and even children at their events. I know school owners request it but it's also helps offset the costs so we can offer seminars with top quality grand masters and masters. But that's not the big money I was really thinking about, the seminar that always catches my attention is Grandmaster Y.K. Kim http://www.ourams.com/magazine/2005-01_west_feature.pdf charging $75K (page 2 on the right hand side) to keynote speak. Heck, that's more than most martial art schools gross in a year! The $5-10+K seminar fees for some big time names (like Shamrock, Ortiz, etc) to do seminars would be a real, real nice income. For organizational fees, I was referring more to the organizations that handle thousands of students and hundreds of clients/schools. In regards to adding youth/children adding to bottom line and adding to headache, truer words haven't been spoken! I read that and laughed out loud, I could almost hear you saying it. For us, since we do want to make a living with our full time school, the headache is worth it. In addition, since we have a 5 & 13 year old, outside of church, I can't think of a better place to have them than martial art surroundings. Lastly, not meaning to be offensive, but of those 20 years you had a school without children as clients, you also had personal supplemental income via your career and/or retirement fund. And again, what got this started was Master Terry's question about "successful adult only schools." In order to be a successful commercial enterprise, a business must sustain itself 100% AND a 100% of the household expenses of it's employee(s). While I'm writing this, I might as well tell everyone why I'm so passionate about earning a decent living while being self employed. I watched my parents open business and use my father's retirement to supplement it. I watched them struggle at times to make ends meet. Both working without drawing a salary for years. We never went without, but there were times that things were tight. Part of the reason why was because my father was always looking out for the customer and charging the minimum. I remember him talking about other companies ripping off the customer only to find later they charged the rate they do so they could keep their doors open. As my father reached retirement age (for the second time mind ya), those folks he looked out for weren't going to come around and look out for him in his golden years. We HAVE to get it while we are in position TO get it. That doesn't mean rip folks off but it does mean make enough to survive and take appropriate care of our children. I've met many men in similar situations by looking out for the customer more than they look out for themselves. It makes me think of my dad and people taking advantage of his good nature. At other times, I hear people be critical of those making a living doing their trade and I reflect on what I know is true about trying to survive the self employed world. Some of the martial art schools out there redefine "selling out" and rip off. I loathe those people - they make us all look bad. A solid commercial school offering a solid service to our younger generation is nothing to be ashamed of. Again, where would we rather our children be? My children NOT living the best life I can for them IS something to be ashamed of (doing an honest business/trade). Warm regards Sir, Thomas Gordon Florida --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Thomas Gordon" To: , Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2006 00:22:06 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Video clips: applications for chon ji Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I'm relatively new to the ITF (about 2 years) but I can't see the application for Chon-Ji. The chamber is incorrect for the low block in both clips looking more karate-ish (the way I learned it the first time) and the technique in the first clip is to "turn and low block" not advance forward. As seen on Step #3 http://www.itf-information.com/patterns02.htm With that said, a decent exercise using a parry. On the second clip, it's low block then step forward punch. Not low block, no step, punch. Again, useful exercise but not what I would consider any "hidden techniques" or applications for Chon-Ji. Looks like an application using a parry and hard style wrist breakaway. Thomas Gordon Florida --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2006 06:23:18 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jason E. Thomas" To: itf-taekwondo@yahoogroups.com, the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: [itf-taekwondo] Video clips: applications for chon ji Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net The real issue here is that the low block, existed long before Chon-Ji. Chon-Ji consists of low blocks, middle punches, & Inside to Outside Blocks. While I understand your comments and intent sir, I'd respectfully submit that there are many possible translations. Very similiar to word meanings in sentence content in grammar. Jason Thomas Gordon wrote: I'm relatively new to the ITF (about 2 years) but I can't see the application for Chon-Ji. The chamber is incorrect for the low block in both clips looking more karate-ish (the way I learned it the first time) and the technique in the first clip is to "turn and low block" not advance forward. As seen on Step #3 http://www.itf-information.com/patterns02.htm With that said, a decent exercise using a parry. On the second clip, it's low block then step forward punch. Not low block, no step, punch. Again, useful exercise but not what I would consider any "hidden techniques" or applications for Chon-Ji. Looks like an application using a parry and hard style wrist breakaway. Thomas Gordon Florida This email group is in no way associated with any web site and it is not an official part of the ITF. SPONSORED LINKS Tae kwon-do Martial arts training Martial arts training gear Martial arts training video --------------------------------- YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "itf-taekwondo" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: itf-taekwondo-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: 30 Apr 2006 14:22:35 -0000 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: "Master Lugo" Subject: [The_Dojang] MIYAMA RYU SEMINAR GASSHUKU Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net The Miyama Ryu Gasshuku was a huge success! 45 people attended the seminar at Black Belt Fitness Center, In attendance were high ranking instructors including: Dai Shihan D'arcy-Bahamas Dai Shihan Milliaressis-USA International Board Members Shihan Avilles Shihan Candy Shihan Omar Among others School members from Chicago, Bahamas, New York City, Bronx, Queens, Santo Dominco, Germany & Florida were represented. The New Black Belt Jujutsu book was sold and signed by Dai Shihan D'arcy Sword techniques by Dai Shihan D'arcy There was also an Brazilian JuJutsu demostration Gun defense demostration Instruction from Dai Shihan Milliaressis & Shihan Avilles After the seminar there was a diner at a local restaurant. The seminar was filmed and will be available in DVD format by Aug. 2006 Pictures will be posted shortly at blackbeltfitnesscenter.com The Seminar was hosted by Master Lugo of Black Belt Fitness Center --__--__-- Message: 5 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Rudy Timmerman Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2006 09:58:23 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Making a difference Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sid writes: > I am so proud of what I've > done, so happy to share that with others and so eager to continue > as long as I > can. I feel we are a library. Some come once a year, some every > day but all > know that this is the place to touch base for something good and > wonderful. Hello Sid. Way to go my friend. With teachers who have such a great attitude, I am sure LOTS of people will benefit from training with you. I too am very proud, and it is especially heartwarming when I get a letter from a grown up who trained with me as a kid (or a parent of one of my kids) telling me that I made a difference in their life. Who could ask for anything more. JR said that he has to keep his car running for a few more years, and after more than 50 years of training I too will have to make do; however, the deluge of letters from a seminar group such as Master Gommels (who recently hosted an NKMAA seminar), I know I am doing something right. Some of the assistants I had with me in Rochester MN started with me as kids, and THEY too received many cudos. Despite the fact that our bank accounts may not reflect our true earning potential, I sleep well at night, and I most certainly feel Rich knowing that I made that difference. Some of us are in this for the love of it, and that is why people like Jeff Booth and myself come to Master West's seminars to teach for free. In my case, I drive two days to get there, and Jeff flies from the other side of the world. Our pay is the smiles of the people who come to work with us, and it is all good. Rudy --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2006 11:51:28 -0400 From: "Burdick, Dakin Robert" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] TKD Hoshinsul Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jye asked, I have been very interested in applications of forms lately and came up with a question about hoshinsul in TKD. Where did TKD's hoshinsul routines come from? I notice they vary from school to school so who designed them and where did they get them? My reply: Well, if we are talking about the hoshinsul in the 1973 edition of Taekwon-Do by Gen. Choi, then it is actually hapkido demonstrated by Ki-Tae Chung. There's a long story behind that one, that GM Chung shared in a published interview, but the upshot is that hoshinsul before that looked a lot like the stuff from the JKA (Japanese Karate Association), particularly from the "Best Karate" series. In 1973, tkd hoshinsul became hapkido. :) Keep on hapkidoing! Dakin dakinburdick@yahoo.com [demime 0.98e removed an attachment of type application/ms-tnef which had a name of winmail.dat] --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Thomas Gordon" To: , Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2006 14:48:39 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Video clips: applications for chon ji Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "The real issue here is that the low block, existed long before Chon-Ji. Chon-Ji consists of low blocks, middle punches, & Inside to Outside Blocks." Well, not really. There are no outside blocks in Chon-Ji. There's a few middle blocks with the inner forearm (what I originally learned as an "inner forearm block"). The first clip isn't even using a low block, it's an across the body parry at the middle section. The second clip is a karate-ish chamber for a low block and then without the step forward part. I think it's a useful exercise for "alternate blocking." And that's what I'd call it, "alternate using xyz block" and "alternate using low block." In class last week we used a low block motion to make a circular motion hooking the opponents front kick and then sweep their supporting leg but it was a far cry from "Chon-Ji material" other than a generic low block. Thomas Gordon Florida --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2006 20:23:51 -0400 (EDT) From: "G. Vincent Castellano" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Master Dan good point on time in rank and absorbtion of material Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net On Fri, 28 Apr 2006, steven riggs wrote: > One night a mother of a student really blew up about her > child not being on the list for the next promotion. I am appalled when I see behaviour like this from parents. I've seen them gesticulating madly at the Master's wife in the front office when their child has to come back two days later for a retest. I guess they expect to be by their kid's side their whole life, making sure they don't have to work hard to get what they deserve. The do jang should be a place where a higher standard is kept. When my boy misbehaved badly at school, I took him to the do jang and stood behind him while he apologized to the master, saying that he was not ready for the next belt test and would improve his self-control before he tested again. I wouldn't think of passing judgement on the decisions an instructor has to make, but some of us parents take our kids to martial arts classes to learn discipline, respect and confidence (not just to keep them busy for a couple of hours a week while we shop) and we'll back you up 110% if you have to take a harsh line with them. --gvc --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2006 19:15:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] TKD Hoshinsul To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net ahhh...and this is probably why some instructors claim to have studied hapkido and have never studied it in full. Jye "Burdick, Dakin Robert" wrote: Jye asked, I have been very interested in applications of forms lately and came up with a question about hoshinsul in TKD. Where did TKD's hoshinsul routines come from? I notice they vary from school to school so who designed them and where did they get them? My reply: Well, if we are talking about the hoshinsul in the 1973 edition of Taekwon-Do by Gen. Choi, then it is actually hapkido demonstrated by Ki-Tae Chung. There's a long story behind that one, that GM Chung shared in a published interview, but the upshot is that hoshinsul before that looked a lot like the stuff from the JKA (Japanese Karate Association), particularly from the "Best Karate" series. In 1973, tkd hoshinsul became hapkido. :) Keep on hapkidoing! Dakin dakinburdick@yahoo.com [demime 0.98e removed an attachment of type application/ms-tnef which had a name of winmail.dat] _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less. --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2006 19:45:23 -0800 From: Dan Scholten To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Master Dan reply to Steven Riggs Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I enjoyed your reply and example of the student who quit, I am just learning more over the last ten twenty years to economize on wasting time or resources on the wrong person because in the end they do quit or do something bad so it is better to focus on those who are going to be committed to entire life style and service to others. My master used to actually read a person's mind and intent and could really put the hurt on you if needed but was also very kind and patient if needed as well. The other problem is what you stated exactly the parents) who ever came up with the idea that a kid should never be told no or have limits. In child development they need structure and limits to define their own identity and self worth but unfortunately many times the people in charge at home are the worst obstacle to accomplishing that. Three state tournaments ago I watched a mother walk right into a fighting ring and demand her child be awarded the fight. I have even been threatened by spectator parents while center refereeing what are these kids to learn from this??? Bad sportsmanship, language, violence, I would have liked to send them out on a stretcher but out of respect for my GM I didn't want his insurance to take a hit. So I am picky about the parents as well as the students I have eliminated students on the basis of their parents being disruptive to the class and others and everyone appreciates it I found out the city said they were a problem at every city sponsored sporting event and nobody wanted their kids on their team I was the only one that had the guts to physically have them removed and barred from the property. I used to think in terms of needing larger groups of advanced students say 200 instead of 50 or 50 instead of 25 not because of money but somehow the effect it would have on the community but now I am very happy to have 100% of students there doing well with great attitude and we can do more for each other. We seem to be attracting better students with better retention. I suppose what ever our students do to us is payback for what we did or did not do for our masters??? --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2006 19:59:08 -0800 From: Dan Scholten To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Master Dan to Sid Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sid, I agree with your point about TKD for everyone and people arrive at different levels. I always teach that the point is to do your best with out fear, effort is its own reward and that there is no failure if you do your best but progression in knowledge. The way I was first taught made such an impact that I have always taught that if a person just dose this for six months it will change them for the rest of their life. However it is a dangerous art and must not be handed to those who may misuse it later due to wrong attitude or intentions. I also disagree that TKD is only a sport and not spiritual. It is the spiritual aspect that will carry a person over hard times and old age and that aspect can be as deep as you want up to and including a personal realization of your own origins and divinity. There is no single one point you can use to define TKD it is frustrating when people try so hard to put in a simple box of this or that. I won a very good insurance settlement on the basis of TKD being used to help injured, disabled and handicapped people. Thanks for your comments Master Dan --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest