Date: Mon, 01 May 2006 10:18:24 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 13 #193 - 14 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,100 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. RE: Master Dan to Sid (PETER.MCDONALDSMITH@london-fire.gov.uk) 2. Re: Master Dan good point on time in rank and absorbtion of material (michael tomlinson) 3. RE: No KIds (?) 4. Re: Master Dan good point on time in rank and absorbtion of material (Joseph Cheavens) 5. Re: Master Dan good point on time in rank and absorbtion of material (Joseph Cheavens) 6. RE: TKD Hoshinsul (Joseph Cheavens) 7. RE: No KIds (Thomas Gordon) 8. RE: No Kids (J R Hilland) 9. Re: Reply to Master Dan (sidtkd@aol.com) 10. Re: Master Dan good point on time in rank and absorbtion of material (michael tomlinson) --__--__-- Message: 1 Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Master Dan to Sid Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 08:32:53 +0100 From: To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dan its positively refreshing to hear someone talk about tkd in this way. I love this art. Peter -----Original Message----- From: Dan Scholten [mailto:masterdan@gci.net] Sent: 01 May 2006 04:59 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Master Dan to Sid Sid, I agree with your point about TKD for everyone and people arrive at different levels. I always teach that the point is to do your best with out fear, effort is its own reward and that there is no failure if you do your best but progression in knowledge. The way I was first taught made such an impact that I have always taught that if a person just dose this for six months it will change them for the rest of their life. However it is a dangerous art and must not be handed to those who may misuse it later due to wrong attitude or intentions. I also disagree that TKD is only a sport and not spiritual. It is the spiritual aspect that will carry a person over hard times and old age and that aspect can be as deep as you want up to and including a personal realization of your own origins and divinity. There is no single one point you can use to define TKD it is frustrating when people try so hard to put in a simple box of this or that. I won a very good insurance settlement on the basis of TKD being used to help injured, disabled and handicapped people. Thanks for your comments Master Dan _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang **************************************************************************** SMOKE ALARMS SAVE LIVES Go to London Fire at www.london-fire.gov.uk/firesafety This email is confidential to the addressee only. If you do not believe that you are the intended addressee, do not use, pass on or copy it in any way. If you have received it in error, please delete it immediately and telephone the supplied number, reversing the charges if necessary. --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Master Dan good point on time in rank and absorbtion of material Date: Mon, 01 May 2006 11:46:53 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net LOL....try being a high school teacher for close to twenty years and deal with some of THOSE parents who never think little Johnny could EVER be to blame for not studying, cheating, being disrespectful, skipping school..etc..etc....it is definately a trip..... Michael Tomlinson >From: "G. Vincent Castellano" >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Master Dan good point on time in rank and >absorbtion of material >Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2006 20:23:51 -0400 (EDT) > >On Fri, 28 Apr 2006, steven riggs wrote: > >> One night a mother of a student really blew up about her >>child not being on the list for the next promotion. > >I am appalled when I see behaviour like this from parents. >I've seen them gesticulating madly at the Master's wife >in the front office when their child has to come back two days >later for a retest. I guess they expect to be by their kid's >side their whole life, making sure they don't have to work >hard to get what they deserve. > >The do jang should be a place where a higher standard is kept. >When my boy misbehaved badly at school, I took him to the do jang >and stood behind him while he apologized to the master, saying that >he was not ready for the next belt test and would improve his >self-control before he tested again. > >I wouldn't think of passing judgement on the decisions an instructor >has to make, but some of us parents take our kids to martial arts >classes to learn discipline, respect and confidence (not just to >keep them busy for a couple of hours a week while we shop) and we'll back >you up 110% if you have to take a harsh line with them. >--gvc >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Mon, 01 May 2006 07:55:30 -0500 From: ? To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] No KIds Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Masters West and Gordon: I find both of you admirable. I guess it is an individual's choice to as why or why not to teach kids. Disadvantages could be their lack of attention, spoil't rotten behaviors, having to answer to parents when you discipline them, showing their skills off, and they can get quite noisy. Advantages would be that it is an alternative to the temptations of drinking and doing drugs and it builds self-confidence. Master Gordon (Or is is Mister?) There are much better people than they for a cheaper price right in your own backyard. You don't need those big names to have a good seminar. Donna --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Joseph Cheavens" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Master Dan good point on time in rank and absorbtion of material Date: Mon, 01 May 2006 08:55:22 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Good point with regards to behavior at school and consequences at the dojang. Both of the last two dojang where I trained/taught had a policy regarding this: 1) students must maintain at least a B average to be allowed to train, if they get bad grades, they will be expected to do their homework off to the side while the rest of the class trains; students who maintained an A average got a patch to put on their dobak; 2) poor discipline, especially fighting, will result in loss of training privelages. At one of these dojang, students were given a note to give to their teachers and vice principle notifying them of the school's policies and urging them to contact the dojangnim if the student caused any problems. At the beginning of each school year, the students had to bring the note back with the signatures of their teachers and VP. Joe Cheavens -------------------------------------------------------------------- From:  "G. Vincent Castellano" Reply-To:  the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To:  the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject:  Re: [The_Dojang] Master Dan good point on time in rank and absorbtion of material Date:  Sun, 30 Apr 2006 20:23:51 -0400 (EDT) >On Fri, 28 Apr 2006, steven riggs wrote: > >>      One night a mother of a student really blew up about her >>child not being on the list for the next promotion. > >I am appalled when I see behaviour like this from parents. >I've seen them gesticulating madly at the Master's wife >in the front office when their child has to come back two days >later for a retest.  I guess they expect to be by their kid's >side their whole life, making sure they don't have to work >hard to get what they deserve. > >The do jang should be a place where a higher standard is kept. >When my boy misbehaved badly at school, I took him to the do jang >and stood behind him while he apologized to the master, saying that >he was not ready for the next belt test and would improve his >self-control before he tested again. > >I wouldn't think of passing judgement on the decisions an instructor >has to make, but some of us parents take our kids to martial arts >classes to learn discipline, respect and confidence (not just to >keep them busy for a couple of hours a week while we shop) and we'll >back you up 110% if you have to take a harsh line with them. >--gvc >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Joseph Cheavens" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Master Dan good point on time in rank and absorbtion of material Date: Mon, 01 May 2006 09:09:52 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I used to work as a substitute teacher in our public schools. I know exactly what you're talking about. One incident in particular that the vice principle at one of the jr highs related to me I found rather amusing. This one kid was notorious for being a trouble maker. He dressed like a parody of your typical gangbanger (e.g. oversized clothing with his pants halfway down to his knees) and did all the gangbanger posturing and posing. However, this kid was no gangbanger and came from a middle class family. One day, when the mom was called in to talk to the VP about one of his stunts, and the mom got all defensive and accused the VP of treeting her poor son like a hoodlum. The VP was speachless for a while, and then pointed out that her son did dress like a gangbanger and tried to act like a gangbanger, so what did she expect. She left in a huff. Joe Cheavens -------------------------------------------------------------------- From:  "michael tomlinson" Reply-To:  the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To:  the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject:  Re: [The_Dojang] Master Dan good point on time in rank and absorbtion of material Date:  Mon, 01 May 2006 11:46:53 +0000 >LOL....try being a high school teacher for close to twenty years and >deal with some of THOSE parents who never think little Johnny could >EVER be to blame for not studying, cheating, being disrespectful, >skipping school..etc..etc....it is definately a trip..... >                                                                     >                      Michael Tomlinson > > >>From: "G. Vincent Castellano" >>Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >>To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >>Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Master Dan good point on time in rank and >>   absorbtion of material >>Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2006 20:23:51 -0400 (EDT) >> >>On Fri, 28 Apr 2006, steven riggs wrote: >> >>>      One night a mother of a student really blew up about her >>>child not being on the list for the next promotion. >> >>I am appalled when I see behaviour like this from parents. >>I've seen them gesticulating madly at the Master's wife >>in the front office when their child has to come back two days >>later for a retest.  I guess they expect to be by their kid's >>side their whole life, making sure they don't have to work >>hard to get what they deserve. >> >>The do jang should be a place where a higher standard is kept. >>When my boy misbehaved badly at school, I took him to the do jang >>and stood behind him while he apologized to the master, saying that >>he was not ready for the next belt test and would improve his >>self-control before he tested again. >> >>I wouldn't think of passing judgement on the decisions an >>instructor >>has to make, but some of us parents take our kids to martial arts >>classes to learn discipline, respect and confidence (not just to >>keep them busy for a couple of hours a week while we shop) and >>we'll back you up 110% if you have to take a harsh line with them. >>--gvc >>_______________________________________________ >>The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members >>The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >>Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >>Standard disclaimers apply >>http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Joseph Cheavens" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] TKD Hoshinsul Date: Mon, 01 May 2006 09:41:42 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dakin: I'd always figured that the judo that was taught in the public schools in Korea prior to independence must have played a role, as well. I can see some Hapkido influence in TKD hoshinsul, such as arm-bar takedowns some of the knife defenses, but others seem a lot more judo-esque, such as the hip throws, sweeps and reaps. Of course, I also have a theory that the original senior students of Choi Young-sul must also have studied judo during the Japanese occupation and that this knowledge base shaped how HKD has developed, as a lot of the HKD I've seen seems to have a few more judo-esque moves than Aikido. When did TKD (or Kong Soo Do and Tang Soo Do prior to the unification of the kwans) start to borrow from HKD? My original sabumnim, Sean Owen, started studying Jidokwan "Korean Karate" from GM Bong-young Choi in the late sixties. Would the hapkido-esque techniques Owen-sabumnim was teaching in the '80s have already been part of the JDK curriculum back in the '60s, or would he have learned them later on? Also, a friend of mine in college back in the '80s was a chodan in Mudukkwan TSD and had a lot of the same judo-esque hoshinsul techniques that I knew and a few different hapkido-esque techniques than the ones I knew. Did TSD also borrow from Hapkido, and if so, was it at the same time or at a later time? Joe Cheavens -------------------------------------------------------------------- From:  "Burdick, Dakin Robert" Reply-To:  the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To:   Subject:  [The_Dojang] TKD Hoshinsul Date:  Sun, 30 Apr 2006 11:51:28 -0400 >Jye asked, > >I have been very interested in applications of forms lately and came up with a >question about hoshinsul in TKD. Where did TKD's hoshinsul routines come from? >I notice they vary from school to school so who designed them and where did >they get them? > >My reply: > >Well, if we are talking about the hoshinsul in the 1973 edition of Taekwon-Do >by Gen. Choi, then it is actually hapkido demonstrated by Ki-Tae Chung. >There's a long story behind that one, that GM Chung shared in a published >interview, but the upshot is that hoshinsul before that looked a lot like the >stuff from the JKA (Japanese Karate Association), particularly from the "Best >Karate" series.  In 1973, tkd hoshinsul became hapkido. :) > >Keep on hapkidoing! > >Dakin >dakinburdick@yahoo.com > >[demime 0.98e removed an attachment of type application/ms-tnef which had a name of winmail.dat] >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 10:00:46 -0500 (CDT) Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] No KIds From: "Thomas Gordon" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ms. Donna, Thanks for the email and the kind words. In regards to the seminars, no ma’am, we don’t need those big names to do a good seminar. Personally, I enjoy training and bringing in the people we do gives me the opportunity to do so and give something for our students to look forward to. In that aspect I’m not the best business man in that we rarely break even when hosting seminars. I’ve never lost focus on why I got into martial arts in the first place and that’s to train and learn martial arts. So if we break even, I’m happy. Thomas Gordon Florida --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "J R Hilland" To: Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 10:21:15 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: No Kids Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <<>> USKMAF FEES THAT WE PAY dojang fees: 0 student fees: 0 advice and consultation: 0 joining fees: 0 membership fees: 0 donations made to the USKMAF: whenever possible seminar fees: more than reasonable gup certificates: more than reasonable (much less than the WHF) dan certificates: more than reasonable (much less than the Kukkiwon listed charges) JRH www.rrhapkido.com --__--__-- Message: 9 From: sidtkd@aol.com Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 12:44:32 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Reply to Master Dan Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Master Dan, Thanks for your comments. But, I'm sorry...I just don't see the spiritual domain here. Meditation is concentration with breathing. That produces good results. Spiritual for me means that an activity aligns itself with spirits or God. Taekwondo, simply does not do that at all. If it did, we wouldn't have so many fraud, cheats, abusers and stealing in taekwondo. I think its more the over romanticization with the East that gets us to believe the hype. Kung Fu with David Carradine was a great show...but really...it was just a show. As for taekwondo being a dangerous art for the unsophisticated. No more than the danger in a weightlifting gym or other physical activity. After all, we don't do "vulcan neck pinches". I am just saying this: try hard and you will get in good shape and learn this art well, follow the Hwa Rang Do tenents and you'll be a decent human being. But spirituality comes from a heavenly place, not simply from buying the hype. Sid --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Master Dan good point on time in rank and absorbtion of material Date: Mon, 01 May 2006 17:03:28 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I hear you,,, I see approx. a thousand kids a day dressing and acting like this... Michael Tomlinson >From: "Joseph Cheavens" >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Master Dan good point on time in rank and >absorbtion of material >Date: Mon, 01 May 2006 09:09:52 -0500 > >I used to work as a substitute teacher in our public schools. I know >exactly what you're talking about. One incident in particular that the >vice principle at one of the jr highs related to me I found rather >amusing. This one kid was notorious for being a trouble maker. He dressed >like a parody of your typical gangbanger (e.g. oversized clothing with >his pants halfway down to his knees) and did all the gangbanger posturing >and posing. However, this kid was no gangbanger and came from a middle >class family. One day, when the mom was called in to talk to the VP about >one of his stunts, and the mom got all defensive and accused the VP of >treeting her poor son like a hoodlum. The VP was speachless for a while, >and then pointed out that her son did dress like a gangbanger and tried >to act like a gangbanger, so what did she expect. She left in a huff. > >Joe Cheavens > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > From:  "michael tomlinson" > Reply-To:  the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > To:  the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Subject:  Re: [The_Dojang] Master Dan good point on time in rank and > absorbtion of material > Date:  Mon, 01 May 2006 11:46:53 +0000 > >LOL....try being a high school teacher for close to twenty years and > >deal with some of THOSE parents who never think little Johnny could > >EVER be to blame for not studying, cheating, being disrespectful, > >skipping school..etc..etc....it is definately a trip..... > >                                                                     > >                      Michael Tomlinson > > > > > >>From: "G. Vincent Castellano" > >>Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > >>To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > >>Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Master Dan good point on time in rank and > >>   absorbtion of material > >>Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2006 20:23:51 -0400 (EDT) > >> > >>On Fri, 28 Apr 2006, steven riggs wrote: > >> > >>>      One night a mother of a student really blew up about her > >>>child not being on the list for the next promotion. > >> > >>I am appalled when I see behaviour like this from parents. > >>I've seen them gesticulating madly at the Master's wife > >>in the front office when their child has to come back two days > >>later for a retest.  I guess they expect to be by their kid's > >>side their whole life, making sure they don't have to work > >>hard to get what they deserve. > >> > >>The do jang should be a place where a higher standard is kept. > >>When my boy misbehaved badly at school, I took him to the do jang > >>and stood behind him while he apologized to the master, saying that > >>he was not ready for the next belt test and would improve his > >>self-control before he tested again. > >> > >>I wouldn't think of passing judgement on the decisions an > >>instructor > >>has to make, but some of us parents take our kids to martial arts > >>classes to learn discipline, respect and confidence (not just to > >>keep them busy for a couple of hours a week while we shop) and > >>we'll back you up 110% if you have to take a harsh line with them. > >>--gvc > >>_______________________________________________ > >>The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members > >>The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > >>Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > >>Standard disclaimers apply > >>http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang > >_______________________________________________ > >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members > >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > >Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > >Standard disclaimers apply > >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. 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