Date: Fri, 05 May 2006 08:11:37 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 13 #199 - 11 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,100 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. discrimination (tntcombatives@comcast.net) 2. Re: Re: The_Dojang digest, Forms and "secret meanings" (Jye nigma) 3. Re: Anyone in the Upper Marlboro, MD Area? (weskekins@comcast.net) 4. RE: Re: The_Dojang digest, Forms and "secret meanings" (Rick Clark) 5. RE: Small circle and fingers (Rick Clark) 6. Re: Discrimination in Children (Taekwondo America) 7. Re: Buddha's birthday (Klaas Barends) 8. RE: discrimination (michael tomlinson) 9. Discrimination in Children (Master Kevin Case) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: tntcombatives@comcast.net To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 05 May 2006 09:36:02 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] discrimination Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Greetings All, This type of situation has happened to me before. I too was taken by surprise. Student was white, 9 years old and began making racist comments. I told him once to stop. Second time I ejected him from class. When his parents showed up, I told them the situation and that I simply would not tolerate any of this behavior and that if they wanted their child to learn they should apply corrections at home. They never returned. So be it. The last thing I need on my conscience is a racially motivated beat down with one of my students(or former) the suspect using skills I taught them to do evil.....jeez, that sounds like a dark-side-of-the-force issue..... I am a MA instructor, not a parent. My duty is to my students to provide them a safe training environment free of BS. I am not in the business for life skills transfer or daycare services. Yes, I encourage positive character traits through the kids program, but I'm not gonna be handing out patches for learing to vaccuum. The parents of my dyna-kids know up front that I will not tolerate whole bunches of stuff and that it is a team effort to help their kid progress. The parents get involved in their child's learning and take care of parenting issues. I take care of the kahrotty part. My advice is to get the parents on board and let them know that any further racist comments will lead to termination of student membership. Keep a check for tuition refund ready should they balk or fail. Mark Gajdostik TNT Martial Arts --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 04:24:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: The_Dojang digest, Forms and "secret meanings" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Not really searching for a 'secret' to forms in TKD. But in other martial arts there are 'secrets'- the 'secrets' are really deceptive or unknown movements. I think if TKD schools examined each form and broke them down into self defense apps they'd have those along with the regular self defense curriculum. I think the key to training forms is training with intent, whether with others as attackers or by one's self, you must have proper intent. Jye TKDgalSamm@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 5/4/2006 2:37:38 AM Central Standard Time, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes: I was giving this some thought this morning and while there are certain combinations that can be put together to form more complex, compound movements if you will, there are also times when a block is just a block. When I learned the basics of hyung I was taught that there are no secrets in hyung, only that your understanding matures. I think that if we look for secret techniques then we are missing the point. Forms were not only meant to help us workout and ingrain muscle memory with various skill sets but to also stimulate us. If I do a billion low blocks for example, that neural response becomes highly conditions and almost reflexive. If I have done it only a few times, I will not be as fast or as strong. This is basic physiology. But I do need to correct one thing... there is one secret to hyung. The "boring" repetition does cause you to eventually face the only opponent of true value. This opponent is the self. I'd like to respond to this post, even if I'm off topic. Honestly, practicing forms never had much meaning to me until I studied with an instructor who had us practice our forms in a circle. You stood in the middle of the circle and practiced every movement, block and counter, on every person in the circle. This way, you are familiar with how the techniques work on lots of different body types. This kind of practice completely changes the mind set when afterward you practice a form individually. There is a HUGE difference practicing a series of blocks and counters against a 12 year old, or a 5 foot 90 pound female and a 6 foot 2 inch 250 pound man, WOW bigtime. You don't get the same effect practicing forms alone, if that is all you do in your training. (No offense if there are people in here who are training that way.) If there is a form that cannot be taught this way, then I don't think it has much use besides what you talk about in your post ... physical fitness. And frankly, heck ... I can do jumping jacks or tae bo for that. That's my beef with most TKD is they do not teach forms this way and I don't know why. THAT seems to be the secret meaning ;-) They SHOULD ... people always understand technique when they understand the practical application behind it. That's why IMHO there are so many people who think TKD forms are useless. Maybe the forms in TKD can't be taught this way ..... ??? Maybe this will provoke some discussion of the tried and true subject of "are forms useless" ??? Respectfully, Loretta --------------------------------- Get amazing travel prices for air and hotel in one click on Yahoo! FareChase --__--__-- Message: 3 From: weskekins@comcast.net To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Anyone in the Upper Marlboro, MD Area? Date: Fri, 05 May 2006 10:21:10 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Greetings: Tiger Do Jang Martial Arts is located in Waldorf, Md. Approximately 20 minutes south of Uppermarlboro. www.tigerdojang.com Best wishes, -- Master W. C. Jenkins, Tiger Do Jang -------------- Original message -------------- From: Samurai Latino > Hello everyone, > I've been trying to catch-up on e-mail since I was out on a work related trip. > Anyways, I met a nice young lady while in class, that is interested in enrolling > her 6 yrs. old son in martial arts. She's located in Upper Marlboro, Maryland. > > I told her that I would help her find a school around the area. Any > information will be appreciated. > Sincerely, > > Sincerely, > Rafael Amill > Choson Martial Arts Club > E-mail: samurai_latino@yahoo.com > http://www.geocities.com/samurai_latino/Choson_Main_Page.html > > > > --------------------------------- > Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ > countries) for 2/min or less. > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Fri, 05 May 2006 08:39:38 -0400 From: "Rick Clark" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: The_Dojang digest, Forms and "secret meanings" To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net At the risk of getting into a long drawn out discussion on forms and the hidden meaning of the movements - I truly believe that there are more than one application to a movement in a form. Further, the very basic applications that are normally given make little or no sense in the context of real self-defense. As a quick example the down block movement, the movement in the forms can vary a bit from person to person and style to style but the basic movement is the same no matter what style. Sure it will look a bit different the but the "idea" of the movement is the same. For example - if I ask you to picture a chair in your mind each and every one of you will have a different "idea" of what a chair looks like. Some will be plain wooden one, others plush, some will be little and others large - but the function of a chair will be the same AND the basic look will be the same. Same with a "down block" each system and style will have a bit different view of what it looks like but the function can be the same. Now - here is where I want to start to pick away a bit. Yes, you must perform the technique thousands of times to build it into muscle memory, but when you do that you should have in mind a practical application of the movement so that it will build muscle memory but also you will associate the movement and a stimulus (attack). If we look at a common explanation of a down block, many describe it as a way to "block" a kick to the mid section from a front or side kick. At the same time we block the leg with one hand we pull back the other to our waist. Now the question I pose is would you ever want to pull your hand back to your waist when someone is really attacking you? If not, then why should we practice that as part of the techniques. Especially if we are trying to build muscle memory in our body - doing the movement thousands of times builds the muscle memory, we get out into a real confrontation and we pull our hand back to our hip and get punched in the face because we have dropped our guard. IF we are building muscle memory then we should be doing so with techniques that we would really use in a self defense application. Not something that looks good in a form. I suggest that there are applications of movements in the various forms that can give you an alternative explanation and still not put you into a position where you have such a hole in your defense. Rick Clark "I am not young enough to know everything." - Oscar Wilde www.ao-denkou-kai.org --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Fri, 05 May 2006 08:53:48 -0400 From: "Rick Clark" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Small circle and fingers To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net While it is true that a person can continue to fight even with a broken bone such as a finger it does reduce their ability to some extent. Having a broken finger tends to make it difficult to hold a weapon in that hand, punch, or grab with any effectiveness. Sure if they are on PCP or other such drugs they will be able to continue to fight. But what is the probability that you will be attacked? Then what is the probability that the person will be on PCP or similar drugs? One of the things you can do to increase the trauma to any given joint break, is once you have broken the bone to continue to twist the joint back and forth grinding bone against bone and into the surrounding blood vessels, nerves, and flesh. This should greatly increase the pain and will probably lead to a permeates loss of function of that joint. I have had reports back from some students that doing this has caused their attacker to pass out from either the pain or shock. Rick Clark "I am not young enough to know everything." - Oscar Wilde www.ao-denkou-kai.org --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Fri, 05 May 2006 08:35:21 -0500 From: Taekwondo America To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Discrimination in Children Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I also thought that maybe she was pushing buttons. And/or repeating what she hears at home. Or maybe she doesn't like martial arts and is trying to get kicked out because her parents won't let her quit (or won't make it acceptable to express that she doesn't like it). I would avoid the discrimination issue like the plague. After all, it's not your job to alter her biases, although that would be a nice little side effect if it happened. Your job is to teach martial arts. Dante is right; the real issue is that the child's behavior and questions are rude. Overlook the racial implications of the questions. The fact that she asked them at all is rude. She should be told this, straight out, in front of the others, before everyone gets the idea that they also can challenge the way the class is run. This sort of power/control thing is contagious. For example, when the child asks why she must be partnered with a white child, I recommend that you say, firmly but without raising your voice, "Because this is my class and I am in charge and if you don't, you will not do this drill." Then make the drill REALLY fun. :-) Anytime she refuses the order of an instructor or assistant, she should have something fun taken away. All instructors must be empowered to do this without checking with you first. An absolutely you must involve the parents. "Your daughter spent 20 minutes sitting down today because she refused the orders of an instructor. Gosh, it looks like she won't be ready for testing in June." THAT BEING SAID, I don't think that the long-term answer is to take all the child's choices away. For example, if we are doing a drill where the height of partners must be a fairly close match, or the skill of the partners much be a match, then I will assign partners for a drill. If I don't really care, then I will say, "everyone get yourself a partner who is not related to you." Joy ensues. Sometimes I allow the children to pick the bag they want to kick, or let one child who has done especially well choose a kick for the whole class to do. There are ways to work choices into the class, and after all, martial arts is about empowerment, yes? Cheryl Rogers Beginner Coordinator Denton Taekwondo Academy Dante wrote: I would agree with this. As an instructor who is Black, this is not something I would tolerate, but it must be coming from somewhere. The parents must be involved to support your explanations and decisions that the dojang and dobok are the great equalizers. How would you address this if she refused to work with any boys? Take race out of the equation and deal with it as any other refusal to do as the instructor requires. More sensitive, maybe. But only if you address it more sensitively than it needs to be. It's not about race, it's about directions from the adult instructor. And the parents need to be on the same page, at the doang and at home. Best wishes Dante -----Original Message----- From: Tim Sent: May 4, 2006 7:37 AM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Discrimination in Children I would involve the parents. I think that taking time off is the last thing that the child needs. She clearly needs to experience more cultures than just her own. In my experience, children are always the last people to see a difference in race. They aren't born with any preconceived notions of anything or anyone. Keep this in mind when talking to the parents. Goodluck, Tim Dante J. James, Esq. Project Director AA-VIP 303-830-1105 www.aavip.org Change is Inevitable, Growth is Optional VOTE - Your future depends on it! _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Klaas Barends Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 16:01:17 +0200 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Buddha's birthday Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Except for 부쳐님오신날 (the coming day of Buddha) today it is also Children's day in Korea. So don't forget to treat the kids in your gym to a little present. They will be happy to treat you on teacher's day ;-) > Happy Buddha's Birthday! > > May 5th is Buddha's Birthday this year. It is the 8th day of the 4th > month of the lunar calendar. This is a National Holiday in Korea. > > Just passing this along to fellow Korean Martial Artists, > > Alain -- kind regards, Klaas Barends www.hapkidoforum.com --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] discrimination Date: Fri, 05 May 2006 14:16:07 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I have to agree totally with Mark's mindset here,, simple...get with the program or leave the program....a long time back we actually had a policeman join our Hapkido class and after he got comfortable with us started telling us about using the techniques on people at night..the area he patrolled was very racially different from him and after a couple of weeks of hearing this nonsense my instructor pooled all of us senior students together for our opinion...unanimously we voted that he should go...in essence his heart was not in the right place to practice Hapkido, my instructor took him outside during the next class and told him point blank what the problem was and told him when he had the right mindset he could come back in no less than six months...he got really mad and accused US of being messed up...but he left..good riddens... another time I had a hard charging Marine Recon student that was on medical disability because of Beirut...bad mojo to his body...great guy but would get this mean ego thing every now and then..during one class I ask him to workout with one of the ladies in class and he told me he didn't want to workout with no lady....I told him his attitude was wrong and hit the door..he could come back in three months if his attitude changed....to my surprise in three months he came back..apologized for his behavior and became a great student and friend...bottom line...don't put up with any nonsense or listen to any nonsense...tell that young lady to be quiet and just do the techniques...... Michael Tomlinson >From: tntcombatives@comcast.net >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >Subject: [The_Dojang] discrimination >Date: Fri, 05 May 2006 09:36:02 +0000 > >Greetings All, > >This type of situation has happened to me before. I too was taken by >surprise. Student was white, 9 years old and began making racist comments. > I told him once to stop. Second time I ejected him from class. When his >parents showed up, I told them the situation and that I simply would not >tolerate any of this behavior and that if they wanted their child to learn >they should apply corrections at home. They never returned. So be it. >The last thing I need on my conscience is a racially motivated beat down >with one of my students(or former) the suspect using skills I taught them >to do evil.....jeez, that sounds like a dark-side-of-the-force issue..... > >I am a MA instructor, not a parent. My duty is to my students to provide >them a safe training environment free of BS. I am not in the business for >life skills transfer or daycare services. Yes, I encourage positive >character traits through the kids program, but I'm not gonna be handing out >patches for learing to vaccuum. > >The parents of my dyna-kids know up front that I will not tolerate whole >bunches of stuff and that it is a team effort to help their kid progress. >The parents get involved in their child's learning and take care of >parenting issues. I take care of the kahrotty part. > >My advice is to get the parents on board and let them know that any further >racist comments will lead to termination of student membership. Keep a >check for tuition refund ready should they balk or fail. > >Mark Gajdostik >TNT Martial Arts >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 10:30:59 -0400 (EDT) From: "Master Kevin Case" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Discrimination in Children Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sounds like there's more going on with this little girl. My opinion for what it's worth is to have a small conference with the little girl and at least one of her parents. Discuss that her comments are inappropriate and also discuss martial arts protocol (at her level of understanding). Don't fuel the little girl's racial comments by skipping around them. Tell her, infront of her parents, that this is inappropriate and not tolerated in your school. In class if she makes any other inappropriate comments go over to her, drop to one kneee so that you are at her eye level and being direct look her in the eye and remind her about the talk the two of you had about protocol. Show her you are in charge and don't worry so much about the racial issue as the protocol issue. Also, have her work in small groups, holding targets, etc. so that she can interact with the other kids and make friends. Spotlighting could also help as her whole issue might be self-esteem. Hope this helps and I'm sure the others will chime in as well. Please let us know how it goes. > This student has attended approximately 4 classes. She has made comments > in class -Master Kevin Case --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest