Date: Fri, 05 May 2006 11:02:25 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 13 #200 - 12 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,100 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Re: The_Dojang digest, Forms and "secret meanings" (michael tomlinson) 2. Value of forms (Thomas Gordon) 3. Broken Fingers (Kenneth W. Legendre) 4. Re: RE: ki finger (Nathan Miller) 5. RE: discrimination (rwood) 6. Re: Dallas Seminar with In Sun Seo (ISA Headquarters) 7. RE: Broken Fingers (michael tomlinson) 8. Re: Broken Fingers (joconnor@cybermesa.com) 9. Re: discrimination (Taekwondo America) 10. RE: Re: The_Dojang digest, Forms and "secret meanings" (Jye nigma) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: The_Dojang digest, Forms and "secret meanings" Date: Fri, 05 May 2006 14:19:32 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net No offense to anyone but when I hear an instructor tell someone that there are "secret" meanings and techniques hidden in the forms....well my BullSh-t meter starts redlining.....come on now...why are they secret or hidden...I just don't buy that kind of thing.... Michael Tomlinson >From: Jye nigma >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: The_Dojang digest, Forms and "secret >meanings" >Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 04:24:59 -0700 (PDT) > >Not really searching for a 'secret' to forms in TKD. But in other martial >arts there are 'secrets'- the 'secrets' are really deceptive or unknown >movements. I think if TKD schools examined each form and broke them down >into self defense apps they'd have those along with the regular self >defense curriculum. > > I think the key to training forms is training with intent, whether with >others as attackers or by one's self, you must have proper intent. > > Jye > > >TKDgalSamm@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 5/4/2006 2:37:38 AM Central Standard Time, >the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes: > >I was giving this some thought this morning and while there are certain >combinations that can be put together to form more complex, compound >movements if you will, there are also times when a block is just a block. >When I learned the basics of hyung I was taught that there are no secrets >in >hyung, only that your understanding matures. I think that if we look for >secret techniques then we are missing the point. Forms were not only meant >to help us workout and ingrain muscle memory with various skill sets but to >also stimulate us. If I do a billion low blocks for example, that neural >response becomes highly conditions and almost reflexive. If I have done it >only a few times, I will not be as fast or as strong. This is basic >physiology. > >But I do need to correct one thing... there is one secret to hyung. The >"boring" repetition does cause you to eventually face the only opponent of >true value. This opponent is the self. > > >I'd like to respond to this post, even if I'm off topic. Honestly, >practicing forms never had much meaning to me until I studied with an >instructor who >had us practice our forms in a circle. You stood in the middle of the >circle >and practiced every movement, block and counter, on every person in the >circle. This way, you are familiar with how the techniques work on lots of >different body types. > >This kind of practice completely changes the mind set when afterward you >practice a form individually. There is a HUGE difference practicing a >series of >blocks and counters against a 12 year old, or a 5 foot 90 pound female and >a >6 foot 2 inch 250 pound man, WOW bigtime. You don't get the same effect >practicing forms alone, if that is all you do in your training. (No offense >if >there are people in here who are training that way.) > >If there is a form that cannot be taught this way, then I don't think it >has >much use besides what you talk about in your post ... physical fitness. And >frankly, heck ... I can do jumping jacks or tae bo for that. > >That's my beef with most TKD is they do not teach forms this way and I >don't >know why. THAT seems to be the secret meaning ;-) They SHOULD ... people >always understand technique when they understand the practical application >behind it. That's why IMHO there are so many people who think TKD forms are >useless. Maybe the forms in TKD can't be taught this way ..... ??? Maybe >this >will provoke some discussion of the tried and true subject of "are forms >useless" ??? > >Respectfully, >Loretta > >--------------------------------- >Get amazing travel prices for air and hotel in one click on Yahoo! >FareChase >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 10:23:04 -0500 (CDT) From: "Thomas Gordon" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Value of forms Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Everybody uses forms. Hapkido has forms, judo has forms, brazillian ju-jitsu has forms. I can’t think of an art that doesn't use forms. Maybe short forms but still a prearranged set of movements...aka "forms." The main differance is the arts mentioned above uses this material with an opponent whereas Taekwondo does not need a partner for form work. Thomas Gordon Florida --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Fri, 05 May 2006 10:45:49 -0500 From: "Kenneth W. Legendre" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Broken Fingers Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello All, I have to disagree about your ability to fight with a broken finger. This is coming from experience. I was in a sparring match (not a knock down drag out fight) and broke my finger. I didn't realize that anything was wrong with it until probably a minute or two after the fight was over. This was an USTU style fight, so it was a very controlled fight. The finger was extremely broken, requiring surgery and pins to fix. Did it effect me during the fight? I don't know. I didn't know anything was wrong. So my guess was that it didn't. It may effect your ability to use a weapon, but that is going to depend on which finger it is. A ring or middle finger won't effect you as much, but you also have 3 other fingers and a thumb on each hand to maintain control of the weapon. If you life is in danger, you will amaze yourself at what you can and will do. I guess if your trying to incapacitate somebody then, in my opinion, the fingers are not the way to do it. Of course I also don't believe in using pressure points. They work. Yes! I've seen it in action. I've also only really seen it happen once where a guy was dropped during a fight in over 16 years of TKD. If you're trying to take out an opponent, go for the knees. Low kicks so they are less likely to get you in trouble. Doesn't require a lot of force to break if you kick it backwards and will completely stop anybody from moving (well other than crawling) no matter what they are on. Is it mean? Yes! You will permanently impair the attackers ability to ever use there leg normally again, but your life depends on it. Your choice, you or him. Ken Legendre 4th Dan TKD --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 10:48:42 -0500 From: "Nathan Miller" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] RE: ki finger Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I was familiar with this concept from exposure to students of small circle jujutsu quite a few years back - the term they used was "magic finger." So I wasn't at all surprised to see it in hapkido. :) Nathan On 5/4/06, J R Hilland wrote: > The use of a ki finger and ki hand are characteristics of hapkido, but not > necessarily exclusive. There are several Japanese ki arts that utilize them. > We did not invent the wheel, just made it better. :) > JRH www.hapkidoselfdefense.com > > << number of the pictures, Prof. Jay had his index finger pointing > out like I have seen on Hapkido patches and in pix and videos on the net. > This is called the "KI Finger " in Hapkido, right??? I just thought maybe > there was some sort of connection. But I am NOT Hapkido, just an interested > observer, so forgive my ignorance.>>> > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "rwood" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] discrimination Date: Fri, 05 May 2006 10:49:14 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net RIGHT ON! The only way to deal with socially unacceptable behavior is to drag it out in the light. I am NOT politically correct by any means, however to dislike someone due to the ethnic background is, well, ignorant. Ignorance can only be combated by education, and I do not mean schools. ----- Original Message ----- From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] discrimination Date: Fri, 05 May 2006 14:16:07 +0000 > I have to agree totally with Mark's mindset here,, > simple...get with the program or leave the program....a > long time back we actually had a policeman join our > Hapkido class and after he got comfortable with us started > telling us about using the techniques on people at > night..the area he patrolled was very racially different > from him and after a couple of weeks of hearing this > nonsense my instructor pooled all of us senior students > together for our opinion...unanimously we voted that he > should go...in essence his heart was not in the right > place to practice Hapkido, my instructor took him outside > during the next class and told him point blank what the > problem was and told him when he had the right mindset he > could come back in no less than six months...he got > really mad and accused US of being messed up...but he > left..good riddens... > > another time I had a hard charging Marine Recon student > that was on medical disability because of Beirut...bad > mojo to his body...great guy but would get this mean ego > thing every now and then..during one class I ask him to > workout with one of the ladies in class and he told me he > didn't want to workout with no lady....I told him his > attitude was wrong and hit the door..he could come back > in three months if his attitude changed....to my surprise > in three months he came back..apologized for his behavior > and became a great student and friend...bottom > line...don't put up with any nonsense or listen to any > nonsense...tell that young lady to be quiet and just do > the techniques...... > Michael Tomlinson > > > >From: tntcombatives@comcast.net > >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > >To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > >Subject: [The_Dojang] discrimination > >Date: Fri, 05 May 2006 09:36:02 +0000 > > > >Greetings All, > > > >This type of situation has happened to me before. I too > was taken by >surprise. Student was white, 9 years old > > and began making racist comments. I told him once to > stop. Second time I ejected him from class. When his > >parents showed up, I told them the situation and that I > simply would not >tolerate any of this behavior and that > if they wanted their child to learn >they should apply > corrections at home. They never returned. So be it. > >The last thing I need on my conscience is a racially > motivated beat down >with one of my students(or former) > the suspect using skills I taught them >to do > evil.....jeez, that sounds like a dark-side-of-the-force > issue..... > > >I am a MA instructor, not a parent. My duty is to my > students to provide >them a safe training environment > free of BS. I am not in the business for >life skills > transfer or daycare services. Yes, I encourage positive > >character traits through the kids program, but I'm not > gonna be handing out >patches for learing to vaccuum. > > > >The parents of my dyna-kids know up front that I will not > tolerate whole >bunches of stuff and that it is a team > effort to help their kid progress. >The parents get > involved in their child's learning and take care of > >parenting issues. I take care of the kahrotty part. > > >My advice is to get the parents on board and let them > know that any further >racist comments will lead to > termination of student membership. Keep a >check for > tuition refund ready should they balk or fail. > > >Mark Gajdostik > >TNT Martial Arts > >_______________________________________________ > >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members > >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > >Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > >Standard disclaimers apply > >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojan > g _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang IHS, Rob He who ignores disciple comes to poverty and shame, but whoever heeds correction is honored. Proverbs 13:18 This electronic communication is from Moberly Public Schools, and is confidential, privileged, and intended only for the use of the recipient(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient, unauthorized disclosure, distribution, or use of the contents of this transmission is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify the CIS Department immediately at the following e-mail address: tech@moberly.k12.mo.us or by calling 660-269-2665. --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "ISA Headquarters" To: Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 12:04:52 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Dallas Seminar with In Sun Seo Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In case I haven't posted this before, here is a plug for the August 5 & 6, 2006 Dallas Seminar with GM Seo, In Sun. You can go to my News & Events page to see the info at: http://www.sungjado.org/News.html Respectfully, George I. Petrotta ISA Director www.sungjado.org/ isahdq@sc.rr.com -- ---------------------------------------- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 3999 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Try www.SPAMfighter.com for free now! --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Broken Fingers Date: Fri, 05 May 2006 16:35:13 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Couldn't of said it better myself....I've had pretty much the same thing happen to me a few times in life and it's like you don't even stop to take inventory of your pain until it's over....hey I like pressure points and small joint locks but I would never bet my life on them... Michael Tomlinson >From: "Kenneth W. Legendre" >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >Subject: [The_Dojang] Broken Fingers >Date: Fri, 05 May 2006 10:45:49 -0500 > >Hello All, > >I have to disagree about your ability to fight with a broken finger. This >is coming from experience. I was in a sparring match (not a knock down drag >out fight) and broke my finger. I didn't realize that anything was wrong >with it until probably a minute or two after the fight was over. > >This was an USTU style fight, so it was a very controlled fight. The finger >was extremely broken, requiring surgery and pins to fix. Did it effect me >during the fight? I don't know. I didn't know anything was wrong. So my >guess was that it didn't. It may effect your ability to use a weapon, but >that is going to depend on which finger it is. A ring or middle finger >won't effect you as much, but you also have 3 other fingers and a thumb on >each hand to maintain control of the weapon. If you life is in danger, you >will amaze yourself at what you can and will do. > >I guess if your trying to incapacitate somebody then, in my opinion, the >fingers are not the way to do it. Of course I also don't believe in using >pressure points. They work. Yes! I've seen it in action. I've also only >really seen it happen once where a guy was dropped during a fight in over >16 years of TKD. If you're trying to take out an opponent, go for the >knees. Low kicks so they are less likely to get you in trouble. Doesn't >require a lot of force to break if you kick it backwards and will >completely stop anybody from moving (well other than crawling) no matter >what they are on. Is it mean? Yes! You will permanently impair the >attackers ability to ever use there leg normally again, but your life >depends on it. Your choice, you or him. > >Ken Legendre >4th Dan TKD >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 8 From: joconnor@cybermesa.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net, the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Broken Fingers Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 10:36:39 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Hello All, > > I have to disagree about your ability to fight with a broken finger. > This is coming from experience. I was in a sparring match (not a > knock down drag out fight) and broke my finger. I didn't realize > that anything was wrong with it until probably a minute or two after > the fight was over. > > This was an USTU style fight, so it was a very controlled fight. The > finger was extremely broken, requiring surgery and pins to fix. Did > it effect me during the fight? I don't know. I didn't know anything > was wrong. So my guess was that it didn't. It may effect your > ability to use a weapon, but that is going to depend on which finger > it is. A ring or middle finger won't effect you as much, but you > also have 3 other fingers and a thumb on each hand to maintain > control of the weapon. If you life is in danger, you will amaze > yourself at what you can and will do. > > I guess if your trying to incapacitate somebody then, in my opinion, > the fingers are not the way to do it. Of course I also don't believe > in using pressure points. They work. Yes! I've seen it in action. > I've also only really seen it happen once where a guy was dropped > during a fight in over 16 years of TKD. If you're trying to take out > an opponent, go for the knees. Low kicks so they are less likely to > get you in trouble. Doesn't require a lot of force to break if you > kick it backwards and will completely stop anybody from moving (well > other than crawling) no matter what they are on. Is it mean? Yes! > You will permanently impair the attackers ability to ever use there > leg normally again, but your life depends on it. Your choice, you or > him. > > Ken Legendre > 4th Dan TKD I guess this all comes down to 'what are you trying to accomplish?' Or rather, 'what does it take to accomplish your goal?'. Not every encounter is a knock-down, drag-out fight. In any situation I think you are first trying to remove the willingness to fight and, if that's not possible, the ability to fight. Depending on what's happening, how beligerent or chemically impaired or testosterone-adled or whatever the other person is, you might need to break a knee, or you might just need to twist a finger. Take care, Jay --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Fri, 05 May 2006 11:42:10 -0500 From: Taekwondo America To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] discrimination Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Yes, certainly. But the original post was about a 5-year-old child who is in all likelihood parroting what she has heard at home or elsewhere. Ignorance can also be combatted with positive experiences. This child has an opportunity to have positive experiences with other children not of her race, once the disruptive behavior ceases. Cheryl rwood wrote: RIGHT ON! The only way to deal with socially unacceptable behavior is to drag it out in the light. I am NOT politically correct by any means, however to dislike someone due to the ethnic background is, well, ignorant. Ignorance can only be combated by education, and I do not mean schools. ----- Original Message ----- From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] discrimination Date: Fri, 05 May 2006 14:16:07 +0000 I have to agree totally with Mark's mindset here,, simple...get with the program or leave the program....a long time back we actually had a policeman join our Hapkido class and after he got comfortable with us started telling us about using the techniques on people at night..the area he patrolled was very racially different from him and after a couple of weeks of hearing this nonsense my instructor pooled all of us senior students together for our opinion...unanimously we voted that he should go...in essence his heart was not in the right place to practice Hapkido, my instructor took him outside during the next class and told him point blank what the problem was and told him when he had the right mindset he could come back in no less than six months...he got really mad and accused US of being messed up...but he left..good riddens... another time I had a hard charging Marine Recon student that was on medical disability because of Beirut...bad mojo to his body...great guy but would get this mean ego thing every now and then..during one class I ask him to workout with one of the ladies in class and he told me he didn't want to workout with no lady....I told him his attitude was wrong and hit the door..he could come back in three months if his attitude changed....to my surprise in three months he came back..apologized for his behavior and became a great student and friend...bottom line...don't put up with any nonsense or listen to any nonsense...tell that young lady to be quiet and just do the techniques...... Michael Tomlinson From: tntcombatives@comcast.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] discrimination Date: Fri, 05 May 2006 09:36:02 +0000 Greetings All, This type of situation has happened to me before. I too was taken by >surprise. Student was white, 9 years old and began making racist comments. I told him once to stop. Second time I ejected him from class. When his parents showed up, I told them the situation and that I simply would not >tolerate any of this behavior and that if they wanted their child to learn >they should apply corrections at home. They never returned. So be it. The last thing I need on my conscience is a racially motivated beat down >with one of my students(or former) the suspect using skills I taught them >to do evil.....jeez, that sounds like a dark-side-of-the-force issue..... > I am a MA instructor, not a parent. My duty is to my students to provide >them a safe training environment free of BS. I am not in the business for >life skills transfer or daycare services. Yes, I encourage positive character traits through the kids program, but I'm not gonna be handing out >patches for learing to vaccuum. The parents of my dyna-kids know up front that I will not tolerate whole >bunches of stuff and that it is a team effort to help their kid progress. >The parents get involved in their child's learning and take care of parenting issues. I take care of the kahrotty part. > My advice is to get the parents on board and let them know that any further >racist comments will lead to termination of student membership. Keep a >check for tuition refund ready should they balk or fail. > Mark Gajdostik TNT Martial Arts _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojan g _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang IHS, Rob He who ignores disciple comes to poverty and shame, but whoever heeds correction is honored. Proverbs 13:18 This electronic communication is from Moberly Public Schools, and is confidential, privileged, and intended only for the use of the recipient(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient, unauthorized disclosure, distribution, or use of the contents of this transmission is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify the CIS Department immediately at the following e-mail address: tech@moberly.k12.mo.us or by calling 660-269-2665. _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 10:15:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: The_Dojang digest, Forms and "secret meanings" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I look at TKD forms as having basic explanations- block kick attack. That actually turned me off from the TKD forms. But I had been speaking with a person who really gets into forms and could use movements from his form in practical situations, and I figured TKD forms could do the same thing. But we have to have a starting point of this exercise. The difference between TKD forms and other martial arts forms is sometimes hundreds or thousands of years with different interpretations combined with the original meaning. So in the beginning you had XYZ style with a definite meaning for their forms, then that style being transmitted to others over a period of hundreds of years, which could be thousands of recipiants and double or triple the amount of interpretation now included for the forms. So the starting point for TKD is now. The moves don't necessarily have to be exact such as the hand being pulled to the waist. That can actually be an elbow strike to the rear. the lower section elbow and other hand being pulled back to the waist could be grabbing and pulling the opponent and striking them....the applications can be almost anything.. Jye Rick Clark wrote: At the risk of getting into a long drawn out discussion on forms and the hidden meaning of the movements - I truly believe that there are more than one application to a movement in a form. Further, the very basic applications that are normally given make little or no sense in the context of real self-defense. As a quick example the down block movement, the movement in the forms can vary a bit from person to person and style to style but the basic movement is the same no matter what style. Sure it will look a bit different the but the "idea" of the movement is the same. For example - if I ask you to picture a chair in your mind each and every one of you will have a different "idea" of what a chair looks like. Some will be plain wooden one, others plush, some will be little and others large - but the function of a chair will be the same AND the basic look will be the same. Same with a "down block" each system and style will have a bit different view of what it looks like but the function can be the same. Now - here is where I want to start to pick away a bit. Yes, you must perform the technique thousands of times to build it into muscle memory, but when you do that you should have in mind a practical application of the movement so that it will build muscle memory but also you will associate the movement and a stimulus (attack). If we look at a common explanation of a down block, many describe it as a way to "block" a kick to the mid section from a front or side kick. At the same time we block the leg with one hand we pull back the other to our waist. Now the question I pose is would you ever want to pull your hand back to your waist when someone is really attacking you? If not, then why should we practice that as part of the techniques. Especially if we are trying to build muscle memory in our body - doing the movement thousands of times builds the muscle memory, we get out into a real confrontation and we pull our hand back to our hip and get punched in the face because we have dropped our guard. IF we are building muscle memory then we should be doing so with techniques that we would really use in a self defense application. Not something that looks good in a form. I suggest that there are applications of movements in the various forms that can give you an alternative explanation and still not put you into a position where you have such a hole in your defense. Rick Clark "I am not young enough to know everything." - Oscar Wilde www.ao-denkou-kai.org _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --------------------------------- Love cheap thrills? Enjoy PC-to-Phone calls to 30+ countries for just 2¢/min with Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest