Date: Fri, 05 May 2006 17:26:45 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 13 #201 - 16 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on plus11.host4u.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.3 required=5.0 tests=NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,100 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. website sneak peek (Jye nigma) 2. Re: website sneak peek (Matt Munson) 3. The Down Block (David Weller) 4. Re: website sneak peek (Jye nigma) 5. Re: Re: The_Dojang digest, Forms and "secret meanings" (Jye nigma) 6. Mike and "secrets" (JR West) 7. Master Don Kirsch Seminar (kat_kelly@sbcglobal.net) 8. RE: The Down Block (Rick Clark) 9. RE: Mike and "secrets" (Rick Clark) 10. RE: Re: The_Dojang digest, Forms and "secret meanings" (Rick Clark) 11. RE: Broken Fingers (Rick Clark) 12. RE: Broken Fingers (Rick Clark) 13. Forms interpretations (Burdick, Dakin Robert) 14. RE: Mike and "secrets" (michael tomlinson) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 10:19:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] website sneak peek Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Here is my new website: http://www.geocities.com/kingjye/evolution/intro.htm --------------------------------- Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min. --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 11:02:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Matt Munson Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] website sneak peek To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I like it! Matt Jye nigma wrote: Here is my new website: http://www.geocities.com/kingjye/evolution/intro.htm --------------------------------- Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min. _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang Munson's Martial Arts Academy An American Combat Tae Kwon Do School -proud member of: The American Combat Arts Federation --------------------------------- Get amazing travel prices for air and hotel in one click on Yahoo! FareChase --__--__-- Message: 3 From: David Weller Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 13:06:14 -0500 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] The Down Block Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Rick, I always thought that blocking a full force kick with my forearm/ hammer fist might result in more damage to me than my attacker. I have changed my way of looking at this slightly. I now picture a hammer fist strike to the gonads of an attacker at my side. I like that image. The look of pain on my imaginary attackers face is priceless. dave weller On May 5, 2006, at 10:11 AM, the_dojang- request@martialartsresource.net wrote: > If we look at a common explanation of a down block, many describe > it as > a way to "block" a kick to the mid section from a front or side kick. > At the same time we block the leg with one hand we pull back the other > to our waist. Now the question I pose is would you ever want to pull > your hand back to your waist when someone is really attacking you? If > not, then why should we practice that as part of the techniques. > Especially if we are trying to build muscle memory in our body - doing > the movement thousands of times builds the muscle memory, we get out > into a real confrontation and we pull our hand back to our hip and get > punched in the face because we have dropped our guard. --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 11:43:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] website sneak peek To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Thanks. I'm trying to work out a few kinks. that animation on the first page was a slight pain as I had to do it manually since I don't know flash...lol. Jye Matt Munson wrote: I like it! Matt Jye nigma wrote: Here is my new website: http://www.geocities.com/kingjye/evolution/intro.htm --------------------------------- Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min. _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang Munson's Martial Arts Academy An American Combat Tae Kwon Do School -proud member of: The American Combat Arts Federation --------------------------------- Get amazing travel prices for air and hotel in one click on Yahoo! FareChase _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less. --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 12:10:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: The_Dojang digest, Forms and "secret meanings" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Something is secret when others don't know about it. It's isn't necessarily an "ancient chinese secret" lol. For instance, back in the day when I was ...shall we say "affiliated" in some negative stuff. I had a method of communicating with my affiliated brothers simply using numbers. For instance, I could be standing right next to someone rattle off what sounded like random numbers to people, and have the guy standing next to me taken out. Now supposed a person watching me for a while witnessed the whole thing...in their account given to the police, what do you think they would say? I used a "secret" code. The reason is not because it's mystical it's because it's meaning(s) aren't known by others. Now as far as hidden movements they indeed do exist! I remember a certain strike which looked like a regular strike but when you broke it down it actually had 3 parts making it three strikes wrapped in one package. Chiense arts are full of them. For instance, I was watching an instructor of Yin style bagua do a simple movement which was to step forward to bridge and ultimately strike his opponent. Within that movement were like 3-4 movements. The first attack was what looked like a step, but the lower leg when stepping in attacked the opponent's knee or shin, then the bridge, and sticking were used to disable the opponent and the strike at that point was optional as with just the bridging and sticking he could have taken the opponent down. I think the term hidden would sit better with me then secret though...lol. Jye michael tomlinson wrote: No offense to anyone but when I hear an instructor tell someone that there are "secret" meanings and techniques hidden in the forms....well my BullSh-t meter starts redlining.....come on now...why are they secret or hidden...I just don't buy that kind of thing.... Michael Tomlinson --------------------------------- Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min. --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "JR West" To: Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 14:43:54 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Mike and "secrets" Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > No offense to anyone but when I hear an instructor tell someone that there > are "secret" meanings and techniques hidden in the forms....well my > BullSh-t > meter starts redlining.....come on now...why are they secret or hidden...I > just don't buy that kind of thing....Michael Tomlinson As usual, I agree with my old friend from FL........Just because someone doesn't know something, doesn't make that thing a secret.........J. R. West www.hapkido.com --__--__-- Message: 7 From: To: Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 15:01:02 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Master Don Kirsch Seminar Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Master Don Kirsch of Dallas TX 5th Dahn Hapkido will be in Houston TX on Saturday June 3rd 2006 for a one day seminar at Braeswood Martial Arts Information found at www.braeswoodmartialart.com or www.hapkido.com We hope to see you there!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Kat --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Fri, 05 May 2006 16:40:46 -0400 From: "Rick Clark" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] The Down Block To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Dave, >From: David Weller [mailto:dweller@greatbend.com] >Hi Rick, >I always thought that blocking a full force kick with my forearm/hammer fist might result in more damage to me than my >attacker. I have changed my way of looking at this slightly. I now picture a hammer fist strike to the gonads of an attacker at my side. >I like that image. The look of pain on my imaginary attackers face is priceless. > >dave weller OK - now you are thinking! SOOOOOOOOOOO - can you think of some other application of a down block using the same basic movement? "What IF" someone was grabbing your lapel could you make use of that same movement to perform a self defense technique? I really hate to try to describe techniques just using words but......with your left hand you reach up and grab the hand and your right hand grabs their elbow. Then you step forward as you apply a joint lock to their wrist (sort of like Kotegaeshi in ju-jitsu or aikido) and you pull their elbow back to your waist? COULD you see that as a possible application? I did a quick web search and found several clips on Kotegaeshi here is one: http://www.aikidocentercharlotte.com/multimedia/movies.htm Now if you can see that this "might" be an application to a down block would it be possible that there might be other movements in self defense that have similar body dynamics? Rick Clark www.ao-denkou-kai.org --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Fri, 05 May 2006 16:47:50 -0400 From: "Rick Clark" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Mike and "secrets" To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >From: JR West [mailto:hapkido@netdoor.com] >> No offense to anyone but when I hear an instructor tell someone that there are "secret" meanings and techniques hidden in the >forms....well my BullSh-t meter starts redlining.....come on now...why are they secret or hidden...I just don't buy that kind of thing.... >> Michael Tomlinson > > >As usual, I agree with my old friend from FL........Just because someone doesn't know something, doesn't make that thing a >secret.........J. R. West >www.hapkido.com I guess it depends on how many people don't know something if it's a secret or not, and what you consider a secret to be. A secret to one person (or group) can be a widely understood technique, or set of knowledge to another group. Rick Clark www.ao-denkou-kai.org --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Fri, 05 May 2006 17:04:23 -0400 From: "Rick Clark" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: The_Dojang digest, Forms and "secret meanings" To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Jye, >From: Jye nigma [mailto:kingjye@yahoo.com] >I look at TKD forms as having basic explanations- block kick attack. That actually turned me off from the TKD forms. I can understand that. Consider that the original Hyung taught were the Pyung-Ahan set. Now I know Itosu developed the Pyung-Ahn (Pinan/Heian) forms and they are not that old. But the other forms practiced are older, and trace to Okinawa and some say China. The problem I have for the newer Korean forms is that I have serious doubts that the Korean instructors did not have any idea that the forms could have been used for something other than the "block / kick" applications we see in TKD today. >But I had been speaking with a person who really gets into forms and could use movements from his form in practical situations, and >I figured TKD forms could do the same thing. But we have to have a starting point of this exercise. The difference between >TKD forms and other martial arts forms is sometimes hundreds or thousands of years with different interpretations combined >with the original meaning. I don't think we will ever be able to learn what the "true" meaning will be just because we are so far removed from that time. >So in the beginning you had XYZ style with a definite meaning for their forms, then that style >being transmitted to others over a period of hundreds of years, which could be thousands of recipiants and double or >triple the amount of interpretation now included for the forms. So the starting point for TKD is now. The moves don't >necessarily have to be exact such as the hand being pulled to the waist. That can actually be an elbow strike to the rear. >the lower section elbow and other hand being pulled back to the waist could be grabbing and pulling the opponent and >striking them....the applications can be almost anything.. Exactly! That is why I think people have called the martial arts "ARTS" we are given skills and ability to execute techniques - its up to us to take those pieces we have been taught and make them our own! For me at least that's where the "art" comes into play. Being able to take the basic notes of music and put them into a new piece of music, not just mimicking previous songs. Rick Clark www.ao-denkou-kai.org > > Jye > > >Rick Clark wrote: > At the risk of getting into a long drawn out discussion on >forms and the hidden meaning of the movements - I truly >believe that there are more than one application to a movement >in a form. Further, the very basic applications that are >normally given make little or no sense in the context of real >self-defense. > >As a quick example the down block movement, the movement in >the forms can vary a bit from person to person and style to >style but the basic movement is the same no matter what style. >Sure it will look a bit different the but the "idea" of the >movement is the same. For example - if I ask you to picture a >chair in your mind each and every one of you will have a >different "idea" of what a chair looks like. Some will be >plain wooden one, others plush, some will be little and others >large - but the function of a chair will be the same AND the >basic look will be the same. Same with a "down block" each >system and style will have a bit different view of what it >looks like but the function can be the same. > >Now - here is where I want to start to pick away a bit. Yes, >you must perform the technique thousands of times to build it >into muscle memory, but when you do that you should have in >mind a practical application of the movement so that it will >build muscle memory but also you will associate the movement >and a stimulus (attack). > >If we look at a common explanation of a down block, many >describe it as a way to "block" a kick to the mid section from >a front or side kick. At the same time we block the leg with >one hand we pull back the other to our waist. Now the question >I pose is would you ever want to pull your hand back to your >waist when someone is really attacking you? If not, then why >should we practice that as part of the techniques. Especially >if we are trying to build muscle memory in our body - doing >the movement thousands of times builds the muscle memory, we >get out into a real confrontation and we pull our hand back to >our hip and get punched in the face because we have dropped our guard. > >IF we are building muscle memory then we should be doing so >with techniques that we would really use in a self defense >application. Not something that looks good in a form. > >I suggest that there are applications of movements in the >various forms that can give you an alternative explanation and >still not put you into a position where you have such a hole >in your defense. > >Rick Clark "I am not young enough to know everything." - Oscar Wilde > > >www.ao-denkou-kai.org >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang > > > >--------------------------------- >Love cheap thrills? Enjoy PC-to-Phone calls to 30+ countries >for just 2¢/min with Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Fri, 05 May 2006 17:19:33 -0400 From: "Rick Clark" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Broken Fingers To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Michael, >From: michael tomlinson [mailto:tomlinson_michael@hotmail.com] >Couldn't of said it better myself....I've had pretty much the same thing happen to me a few times in life and it's like you don't even >stop to take inventory of your pain until it's over....hey I like pressure points and small joint locks but I would never bet my life on them... > > > Michael Tomlinson Using golf as an analogy - would you play a round of golf with just one club or would you want a full set to play various parts of the course depending on the distance and the surface of the course? I wonder why just about every book you look for the martial arts has a chart or list of pressure points? I wonder why you find these charts going back to the early 1900's even in the early Judo/Ju-jitsu books? Heck knowledge of pressure points goes back to the "Hisng Yuan Lu" dates from the reign of Shun Yu (1241 - 1253). So if they are unimportant why would they be mentioned in almost all books and why would this information go back so far? Not only is this knowledge in the Japanese, Chinese, Okinawan arts but can be found in the Indian art of Calare they make use of "marma" points that are very similar to acupuncture. Rick Clark www.ao-denkou-kai.org --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Fri, 05 May 2006 19:09:30 -0400 From: "Rick Clark" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Broken Fingers To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net My apologies, spell check got involved and "Calare" should read Kalari. http://www.kalarippayat.com/ is a site that has some information on the art. I have not really looked at it in depth but if you are interested in the art it might give you a point to start looking for more information. >be found in the Indian art of Calare they make use of "marma" >points that are very similar to acupuncture. > >Rick Clark >www.ao-denkou-kai.org --__--__-- Message: 13 Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 19:58:22 -0400 From: "Burdick, Dakin Robert" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Forms interpretations Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jye writes: >I look at TKD forms as having basic explanations- block kick attack. That actually turned me off from the TKD forms. But I had been speaking with a person who really gets into forms and could use movements from his form in practical situations, and I figured TKD forms could do the same thing. You could, but it has limited usability. I've been that route already. We trained with Dillman back in the 80s and heard his ideas, and then looked at others as well. At one point I was teaching students to train the forms in five different ways: 1. As if the moves were strikes and blocks 2. As if the moves were jointlocks 3. As if the moves were throws 4. As if the moves used weapons 5. As if the moves used pressure point strikes We got pretty good at creating interpretations but here's the rub -- would you ever actually fight that way? I wouldn't. Now we train with sticky hands and free no-holds-barred sparring. Movements are much smaller and more effective, and we now can work endless variations (ie. what if the opponent is stronger? taller? faster? has a weapon? has a buddy? is in a tight space? etc etc). It is a lot more fun, we create new things every day and three days later the technique may be obsolete. And we keep getting better. Other reasons to not do tkd, aside from techniques that are not terribly applicable: 1. Arthritis in hips 2. Damage to lower back 3. Knees trashed from air kicks This is not to say I didn't learn from tkd, because I did. My front kick and spinning back kick I still find very useful. My body awareness is much better. And I'm actually still in the martial arts. If I had started where I am now, I probably would have quit and taken up guitar, because martial arts hurts. Can't quit now though - I'm addicted! Yours in the arts, Dakin Burdick 4th dan tkd, 3rd dan USHF hkd, 2nd dan Hokiryu iaido, 1st dan Kongshin hkd [demime 0.98e removed an attachment of type application/ms-tnef which had a name of winmail.dat] --__--__-- Message: 14 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Mike and "secrets" Date: Fri, 05 May 2006 23:59:57 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Thanks JR for keeping me in good company brother... those forms that have three or four "secret" or hidden meanings and steps.....hmmm...sounds like one of those Kenpo 35 punch movements to hit a guy one good time...again no offense but I think you have to be the type that mentally needs some kind of "secret" knowledge to make that kind of stuff seem valid...it's just that good fighting and good martial training ain't secret,, just a lot of hard work and consistency with a good teacher that ain't trying to bullsh-t you... Michael Tomlinson >From: "JR West" >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >To: >Subject: [The_Dojang] Mike and "secrets" >Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 14:43:54 -0500 > >>No offense to anyone but when I hear an instructor tell someone that there >>are "secret" meanings and techniques hidden in the forms....well my >>BullSh-t >>meter starts redlining.....come on now...why are they secret or hidden...I >>just don't buy that kind of thing....Michael Tomlinson > > >As usual, I agree with my old friend from FL........Just because someone >doesn't know something, doesn't make that thing a secret.........J. R. West >www.hapkido.com >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest