Date: Sat, 06 May 2006 07:22:34 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 13 #203 - 14 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,100 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. RE: Re: Real secrets!!!!!!!!!!! (michael tomlinson) 2. RE: Broken Fingers (michael tomlinson) 3. Re: Re: Real secrets!!!!!!!!!!! (Jye nigma) 4. Re: hidden meanings in forms (Jye nigma) 5. RE: Mike and "secrets" (Jye nigma) 6. RE: Broken fingers and pressure points (michael tomlinson) 7. pressure points (michael tomlinson) 8. Re: Forms interpretations (Jye nigma) 9. RE: Mike and "secrets" (Jye nigma) 10. Online Interview (Matt Munson) 11. RE: Re: The_Dojang digest, Forms and "secret meanings" (PETER.MCDONALDSMITH@london-fire.gov.uk) 12. Re. secrets (Bob Banham) 13. Master Dan to Sid (Dan Scholten) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: Real secrets!!!!!!!!!!! Date: Sat, 06 May 2006 03:47:35 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Man that just about says it all.....got a kick out of this one...no pun intended... Michael Tomlinson >From: sidtkd@aol.com >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Real secrets!!!!!!!!!!! >Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 20:40:10 EDT > >Here are some real secrets about taekwondo as well as all martial arts: > >1) There are NO secrets! >2) There are no spiritual areas in martial arts! >3) There are no super-wise old Asian masters with the treasure trove of >hidden meanings and techniques! > >AND.... > 4) There are no free rides > 5) No secrets to getting good techniques > 6) Life is a zero sum game, what you put in, you "might" take out > 7) You don't pay your tuition? Out the hell you go! > >Oh yeah I forgot....we don't know how to fly, do 720 degree kicks and >knocking the horns off a bull was allegedly done only by Mas Oyama. > >Anyone else have a magic secret? > >Sid Rubinfeld >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Broken Fingers Date: Sat, 06 May 2006 03:51:30 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I feel what your saying and again to everyone I don't doubt the stuff works...it is just that it has a very low level of success as opposed to a very high level of not working....and in a real fight you will go to what causes the most for the least bit of danger to yourself....thats human nature and it will take over.... Michael Tomlinson >From: "Rick Clark" >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >To: >Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Broken Fingers >Date: Fri, 05 May 2006 20:51:22 -0400 > >Hi Michael, > > >From: michael tomlinson [mailto:tomlinson_michael@hotmail.com] > > > >Ok using golf as an analogy...would you try to hit a bowling ball with >a golf club??? > >No you bowl the ball - you do what is appropriate for the situation. > > > That is basically what you are trying to do with the pressure points >and finger breaks....no offense but just because you > >see a chart in a book over and over doesn't mean that you can take that >drawing and turn it > >in to a devastating technique...again I feel like the realm of make >believe is knocking on the door of reality but reality ain't > >answering...I hear you ask I wonder why all this stuff is in all these >books...I got another > >question...I wonder why we never see it ever used in real fights???? >Hmmm > >I don't know about what you see and what you don't see but I do get >reports back from people I teach. About 2 days ago I was in a Dr. >office waiting for an appointment and one of my ex students was there. >I had not seen him for a number of years. We got talking and he was >just back from Iraq, he thanked me for what I had taught him and that it >had been very useful in a number of situations. He made use of pressure >point in a war zone - anywhere from control to breaking the neck of a >person who was trying to kill him. I have had police officers and >correctional officers report back to me how effective the techniques >that I have taught them. I have had women telling me how someone had >tried to rape them and they were able to perform techniques that I had >taught. I have had bouncers who have worked with me give similar >reports. So you telling me that I am not in touch with reality is >something I should believe? > > > >Do you really think if some big crazy lunkhead is trying to hurt you >really bad that breaking one of his fingers or punching him in a > >pressure point from a chart you saw in an old chinese book is gonna >cause him to stop his attack and change his mind??? > >Yes, I do think a pressure point strike can drop a person in an instant, >and in situations where the person is being non compliant and trying to >hurt me. I have done it, and students of mine have done it. As to the >finger break - I had a young lady break the finger of an attacker and it >allowed her to escape and she was not assaulted. > > >Rick Clark >www.ao-denkou-kai.org > > > > > >Michael Tomlinson >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 20:55:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Real secrets!!!!!!!!!!! To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net We'll just have to agree to disagree. I don't believe in secrets as some martial artist say which is a ploy to get more business. No. But I do believe that we today don't know about everything that happened in ancient times. So one could look at what we don't know which may be revealed as secrets. This occurs in but is not limited to the martial arts. We don't have to refer to the things we don't know as secrets. As far as no spiritual areas in the martial arts I think you're way off there as well. Whether directly (ninjutsu) or indirectly (holy wars) there are spiritual areas in martial arts. To clairify, the ritual in ninjutsu where respect is paid to the "spirits" I think the "spirits" says it all...lol. Martial arts or any other art of war in the hands of men is used and intertwined with religion. Some fight for their gods and some incorporate religion into their arts of war. now I agree that there aren't any super wise old asian masters etc etc...but to look at things from a different angle. If you and I stood in front of a tall palm tree with the nearest branch about 20 feet up and we had to get to the top of that tree to get some thing, with no tools....you and I would most likely look at each other and say it can't be done because the closest branch is too far. If told ot could be done, we'd probably be like yeah right. However, I have seen a show on indigineous(sp?) people who climb a similar tree to get coconuts with no tools! Now there is an a technique to climbing the tree, and I bet you and most on this list may not be aware of. Now in that sense, those people who do that on a daily basis, know things we don't that some could consider "the secret to climbing limbless trees" lol. But seriously. I look at it like this. I wouldn't doubt the ancient peoples of this world knew things we don't know. History tells us of things and events done by ancient cultures that we can confirm even today.; mapping of the galaxy, accurate mapping of stars, pyramids, hell even the primative batteries found in egypt...lol. so no man today isn't all that, because those people did stuff without what we have today. Then if you want to look at it from another angle, we today rely on technology too much. In fact how many times have you gone to a young person who's a cashier and can't count money? then how many times have you seen older people who calculate quickly in their mind? it's not a question of secret skills, it's just things that you learn about yourself and the abilities of humans when you don't have outside distractions. alot of the amazing things ancient cultures found were done without advanced technology like we have today, and it's because they had to use their minds more then we do today....so ancient chinese secret? lol... wasn't just the chinese. now the rest of your comments I can agree with. Jye dtkd@aol.com wrote: Here are some real secrets about taekwondo as well as all martial arts: 1) There are NO secrets! 2) There are no spiritual areas in martial arts! 3) There are no super-wise old Asian masters with the treasure trove of hidden meanings and techniques! AND.... 4) There are no free rides 5) No secrets to getting good techniques 6) Life is a zero sum game, what you put in, you "might" take out 7) You don't pay your tuition? Out the hell you go! Oh yeah I forgot....we don't know how to fly, do 720 degree kicks and knocking the horns off a bull was allegedly done only by Mas Oyama. Anyone else have a magic secret? Sid Rubinfeld --------------------------------- Blab-away for as little as 1¢/min. Make PC-to-Phone Calls using Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 20:58:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] hidden meanings in forms To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net lol...TKD forms pretty? lol. guess it depends on which style of TKD. to me when I look at TKD forms, I don't find them appealing to the eye. When I see japanes forms, I see fierce fighting but when I see kung fu forms that's when I see pretty stuff...lol Jye TKDgalSamm@aol.com wrote: Hense, why Japanese forms (at least the ones I have seen) are not "pretty" like TKD ...... LOL!!!! Sorry ... couldn't resist. Loretta --------------------------------- Love cheap thrills? Enjoy PC-to-Phone calls to 30+ countries for just 2¢/min with Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 21:08:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Mike and "secrets" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I think the problem is when people think of the word secret they have one meaning in mind. So let's investigate: se·cret (skrt) adj. Kept hidden from knowledge or view; concealed. Dependably discreet. Operating in a hidden or confidential manner: a secret agent. Not expressed; inward: their secret thoughts. Not frequented; secluded: wandered about the secret byways of Paris. Known or shared only by the initiated: secret rites. Beyond ordinary understanding; mysterious. Containing information, the unauthorized disclosure of which poses a grave threat to national security Now that we have seen the definitions for secret we see that it CAN mean what most of us think typically when we hear it...something mysterious that most don't know about. BUT....it can also denote something concealed, kept from common knowledge, etc. I think people are confusing secret with magical...lol. Jye michael tomlinson wrote: Thanks JR for keeping me in good company brother... those forms that have three or four "secret" or hidden meanings and steps.....hmmm...sounds like one of those Kenpo 35 punch movements to hit a guy one good time...again no offense but I think you have to be the type that mentally needs some kind of "secret" knowledge to make that kind of stuff seem valid...it's just that good fighting and good martial training ain't secret,, just a lot of hard work and consistency with a good teacher that ain't trying to bullsh-t you... Michael Tomlinson --------------------------------- Love cheap thrills? Enjoy PC-to-Phone calls to 30+ countries for just 2¢/min with Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. --------------------------------- New Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC and save big. --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Broken fingers and pressure points Date: Sat, 06 May 2006 04:21:21 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ken that is exactly the point I was "trying" to make bro...very well said... Michael Tomlinson >From: "Ken Legendre" >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >Subject: [The_Dojang] Broken fingers and pressure points >Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 21:23:48 -0500 > >I truely believe that pressure points are effective, but hitting a >pressure point is very difficult to do. > >Stop and think about the last time you watched a fight where martial >arts was involved. How many times did you see an opponent drop to the >floor from getting hit at a pressure point? Winded from an attack, >maybe, but more often than not that is due to a breathing problem (ie >breathing in while getting kicked.) > >Pressure points are just too difficult to hit on a moving target. Yes >they can work, but when I attack a pressure point on a person that is >my secondary objective. The primary objective is to hurt them with the >attack. > >As far as play golf with one club goes... well that's why I have 2 >arms, 2 legs, 2 elbows, 2 knees, 10 fingers, 10 toes, a head and if >your not careful, I'll sit on you and break out the most dreaded >attack of all. > >Thanks, >Ken >4th Dan TKD >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 06 May 2006 04:25:17 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] pressure points Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Has anyone noticed before that almost always when someone is giving a demonstration of a pressure point attack for the public or whoever they are always demonstrating on one of their own students??? Why do you think they do that?? Michael Tomlinson --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 21:40:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Forms interpretations To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I think what you've stumbled on is reaching that ultimate truth that is for only you. When I started sparring other styles they had different approaches hidden deceptive moves, etc and for a minute I was getting tore down. but as I began to start training more seriously and this was TKD, I started kicking a$$. I had other training under my belt but I was just trying to use the TKD stuff. I feel that TKD can be quite effective if taught as a combat art instead of how it is today. The mindset of a person can make anything lethal! you may take TKD and do sport fighting and the man next to you could be taking TKD using it to straight kill people. It's all in what you want from it. Now as far as would I fight that way? no, BUT could you be put in a scenario where that application was applicable. It's just like self defense drills, you may train to get out of a full nelson, but how likely are you to be put into a full nelson in a real fight? BUT, suppose you're at a bar and some drunk puts you in one before a fight breaks out? then you can use what you learn. It's like I'll train for stuff that in a real fight I may not use BUT any real fight can turn into one of the self defense drills easily. first you guys are toe to toe, and maybe the guy rushes in and is choking you with 2 hands...right there is a familiar scenario. so in my opinion, you take the art and make it yours...if one can't do that, then no matter what they study they wont be able to do much in a real fight. I used to put out alot of lights with just TKD stuff...lol. you can take your same argument for TKD forms and apply it to sticky hands. how many times will you use actual sticky hands in a real fight? sometimes the actions aren't the necessarily as important as the principle...so the principle(s) of sticky hands may be more important then actual sticky hands (in some instances). jye "Burdick, Dakin Robert" wrote: You could, but it has limited usability. I've been that route already. We trained with Dillman back in the 80s and heard his ideas, and then looked at others as well. At one point I was teaching students to train the forms in five different ways: 1. As if the moves were strikes and blocks 2. As if the moves were jointlocks 3. As if the moves were throws 4. As if the moves used weapons 5. As if the moves used pressure point strikes We got pretty good at creating interpretations but here's the rub -- would you ever actually fight that way? I wouldn't. Now we train with sticky hands and free no-holds-barred sparring. Movements are much smaller and more effective, and we now can work endless variations (ie. what if the opponent is stronger? taller? faster? has a weapon? has a buddy? is in a tight space? etc etc). It is a lot more fun, we create new things every day and three days later the technique may be obsolete. And we keep getting better. Other reasons to not do tkd, aside from techniques that are not terribly applicable: 1. Arthritis in hips 2. Damage to lower back 3. Knees trashed from air kicks This is not to say I didn't learn from tkd, because I did. My front kick and spinning back kick I still find very useful. My body awareness is much better. And I'm actually still in the martial arts. If I had started where I am now, I probably would have quit and taken up guitar, because martial arts hurts. Can't quit now though - I'm addicted! Yours in the arts, Dakin Burdick 4th dan tkd, 3rd dan USHF hkd, 2nd dan Hokiryu iaido, 1st dan Kongshin hkd --------------------------------- Blab-away for as little as 1¢/min. Make PC-to-Phone Calls using Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 21:53:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Mike and "secrets" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net a football team uses secret plays. a military operation may be secret. game plan for a sport may be secret. why? because another party doesn't know about it. It's as simple as that. That's what makes things secret.a secret ain't no big deal unless you're going against terrorist and they have a secret plan to take out the dojang list serv...lol. people are confusing the basic word secret with magical. lol. The flip side to secret is that something kept secret can be made common knowledge. The reason why it may be hard to view the martial arts as having secret techniques is because we are at a place in time where almost all martial arts have been infiltrated by us. iron palm training method was a secret training method but to us it ain't secret because of those who have trained in it and shared the knowledge making it common. and nowadays with the internet, cable tv, etc etc we can and have seen most martial arts in the world today. It's like at one point the way to create "heavy water" was a secret...say that now or share the method to achieve it and it's like so what...lol. Jye Rick Clark wrote: I guess it depends on how many people don't know something if it's a secret or not, and what you consider a secret to be. A secret to one person (or group) can be a widely understood technique, or set of knowledge to another group. Rick Clark www.ao-denkou-kai.org --------------------------------- How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger’s low PC-to-Phone call rates. --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Sat, 6 May 2006 04:38:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Matt Munson To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Online Interview Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hey everyone, I recently had the pleasure of doing an interview on Tae Kwon Do and martial arts with an online journalist, Lacey, who writes articles and interviews for some online E-Zines and message boards. You can find the interview here on ProActiveHealthNet: http://www.proactivehealthnet.com/healthBB/, just scroll down to the feature of the month section. She also submitted the article to IronLife: http://www.ironlife.com/. The owner of IronLife also posted the interview to some 27 other fitness and martial arts related message boards. Anyway, I just wanted to share this with everybody. My little fledgling school and I are pretty excited about it. Matt P.S. Here is a link to my website, which I am still in the process of developing with the help of my web designer, GardinerTech. Munson's Martial Arts Academy An American Combat Tae Kwon Do School -proud member of: The American Combat Arts Federation __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 11 Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: The_Dojang digest, Forms and "secret meanings" Date: Sat, 6 May 2006 13:17:46 +0100 From: To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi guys here in the UK there is a TV prog called MIND, BODY & KICK ASS MOVES. The whole show is dedicated to little known MA techniques. Peter -----Original Message----- From: Jye nigma [mailto:kingjye@yahoo.com] Sent: 05 May 2006 20:11 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: The_Dojang digest, Forms and "secret meanings" Something is secret when others don't know about it. It's isn't necessarily an "ancient chinese secret" lol. For instance, back in the day when I was ...shall we say "affiliated" in some negative stuff. I had a method of communicating with my affiliated brothers simply using numbers. For instance, I could be standing right next to someone rattle off what sounded like random numbers to people, and have the guy standing next to me taken out. Now supposed a person watching me for a while witnessed the whole thing...in their account given to the police, what do you think they would say? I used a "secret" code. The reason is not because it's mystical it's because it's meaning(s) aren't known by others. Now as far as hidden movements they indeed do exist! I remember a certain strike which looked like a regular strike but when you broke it down it actually had 3 parts making it three strikes wrapped in one package. Chiense arts are full of them. For instance, I was watching an instructor of Yin style bagua do a simple movement which was to step forward to bridge and ultimately strike his opponent. Within that movement were like 3-4 movements. The first attack was what looked like a step, but the lower leg when stepping in attacked the opponent's knee or shin, then the bridge, and sticking were used to disable the opponent and the strike at that point was optional as with just the bridging and sticking he could have taken the opponent down. I think the term hidden would sit better with me then secret though...lol. Jye michael tomlinson wrote: No offense to anyone but when I hear an instructor tell someone that there are "secret" meanings and techniques hidden in the forms....well my BullSh-t meter starts redlining.....come on now...why are they secret or hidden...I just don't buy that kind of thing.... Michael Tomlinson --------------------------------- Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min. _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang **************************************************************************** SMOKE ALARMS SAVE LIVES Go to London Fire at www.london-fire.gov.uk/firesafety This email is confidential to the addressee only. If you do not believe that you are the intended addressee, do not use, pass on or copy it in any way. If you have received it in error, please delete it immediately and telephone the supplied number, reversing the charges if necessary. --__--__-- Message: 12 From: "Bob Banham" To: Date: Sat, 6 May 2006 13:19:51 +0100 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re. secrets Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net The DD has taken an interesting turn of late. Much debate over secrets within martial arts and authenticity of claimed abilities. Before I travelled in my early 30s I too believed that nothing less than a good hard kick or punch would stop an assailant/bad guy. After having seen so called "psychic surgery" in The Philippines, being told by an 80 year old Indian 'saint' that 'ki breathing' is a yogic technique that actually pre-dates any known Korean martial arts by at least 2000 years and watching an Aboriginal medicine man 'hypnotise' from a distance a wild animal, I have had cause to re-think my pre-conceptions and accept that just because I have no knowledge of something or it doesn't fit within my existing world view, doesn't prove it doesn't or cannot exist! Along similar lines, until I qualified and worked as an acupuncturist I believed the best thing for a headache was an analgesic. Some people still do. They are limiting their understanding of the world and I see no possible benefit in that. Bob --__--__-- Message: 13 Date: Sat, 06 May 2006 01:02:08 -0800 From: Dan Scholten To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Master Dan to Sid Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net _____ From: Dan Scholten [mailto:masterdan@gci.net] Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2006 12:44 AM To: 'the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net' Subject: Master Dan reply to Sid First Sid I appreciate your comments on don't by into the Eastern hype and also your frustration with people falling short of higher ideals but first lets put a few things in perspective and go from there. Things are not always what they seem and you can't assume what a person knows or believes just by appearance. When I was talking about the spiritual side of TKD and MA in general I was talking about God, Heaven and our creator from a Christian perspective. Now this may strike you as a non main stream perspective but I can assure you there are more of us out there than you may realize and we are banding together out of friendship and moral support to lift up those that would like some higher ground against the flood of human ego, politics, immoral behavior, and ruination of life and family. First I feel it is important to study any indigenous native art historically including its spiritual side so that you can understand where a person is coming from and how they are likely to act. A person's perspective is 100% of their reality so how can you blame them for that it is simply where they are at today until God steps in and decides to allow them the chance to progress or learn more. They are neither right or wrong just at a certain level of education and maturity. Each person will ultimately have a one on one encounter with God and have the chance to accept or reject what is put to them and they will make a free agency choice. God paid a very high price to give us that choice and a full 1/3 of heaven was not in favor and that battle still rages today. I believe there are only two sources of power in this world good and evil. If it is good it comes from God and if it is bad it comes from the other guy. This is not original you can find this statement again and again from God himself. However this is not something you can prove to anyone as with any religion or faith. One of the most brilliant mathematicians and writers on the scriptures was a World War II Code breaker, he stated that anyone who asks for proof does not want proof but only confirmation of what they already believe?, a good point so I do not put out the following as something for the general masses but for those few that may want to listen. Getting back to spirituality in TKD and MA lets start with one beginning premise, there is no original thought or new ideas. All knowledge that ever was or ever will be was given at creation. We have not evolved in to higher beings but de evolved. Lets be scientific, the basic law of thermo dynamics says that any thing goes from a state of organization to degenerate to that of a lesser state. Hence you cannot take a Volkswagen, put it into the forest for ten years and it will become a Cadillac? Man was a smart as he was ever going to be and given everything related to healing and MA, after the fall is when things began to fall apart and the knowledge was lost or parts taken away because man was miss using this knowledge, even Solomon failed and fell short, knowledge was taken away and at times individuals have been trusted to receive some of the old knowledge but not for their self edification but to serve Gods purpose. Those that violated this purpose and created secrete societies to control and use this knowledge were cursed and wiped out. The fact that imitations to this knowledge is rediscovered and repackaged as being human or ethnic in its origin is dealt with in scripture time and time again, that Satan will imitate and repackage anything including Christianity to lead people away. So getting back to breathing and MA movements lets go back to Genesis. When life was created God literally breathed life into the dirt, life began with the breath. In all MA instruction there is much given to types and ways to breath especially to Chi Gong (Chinese Medical Meditation) 90% of today's U.S. MA practitioners do not actually spend 15-30 minutes a day of just breathing or to mentally give reverence for a period of time that when you breath it is divine in nature and that if you will acknowledge that then you will actually be breathing God in. Next, body movements originated with creation so in fact if you will go back that far and give credit to your creator then movements can become a form of prayer and your perspective will change on how you move and your rational for doing them. There is in nature an energy that everyone talks about using or building in them selves why not admit where it really comes from, a living breathing God that loves all of us and he has stated that if we will draw close to him he will draw close to us. I have taught this application to many black belts and master's and all have come away with a different and improved benefit to their work outs and general health and healing. Again this is for those Christians who are practicing MA, you don't need to feel guilty or uncomfortable about the Eastern philosophy that may come with your art you can have a Christian perspective that will give it even more meaning and purpose. In the Old Testament there were special men with special abilities called Judges that were raised up and set apart to defend their people and protect the weak. I feel that true Black Belts today are called of God even if they do not realize it yet to fight on behalf of their community and to serve by saving today's youth where ever possible. I would encourage any TKD practitioner or MA person with the same feeling or if you feel you would like to come out of the closet on this issue to join the WCTF World Christian Tae Kwon Do Federation as a way to be with like minded people and get true moral support in living a full life with no strings attached, politics or financial constrictions. In closing I would add that a man is what he thinks, you can believe what ever you like but you will become that thing you contemplate, Id rather look up than down or in. Master Dan --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest