Date: Sun, 07 May 2006 13:06:11 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 13 #206 - 15 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,100 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Master Dan on Spirtuality (Jye nigma) 2. Re: Master Dan to Sid (Jye nigma) 3. Re: pressure points (Wes Heaps) 4. another purpose of forms (Wes Heaps) 5. Martial Arts and Spirituality (Frank Clay) 6. Broken fingers and tkd forms (Burdick, Dakin Robert) 7. breaking fingers and pressure points (Don Ross) 8. Question to Mr Burdick re: hoshisul (Donne Flanagan) 9. Re: Broken fingers and tkd forms (Jye nigma) 10. Re: Pressure points (Ken Legendre) 11. Shoulder dislocation (David Weller) 12. Forms - Pyong Ahn timings (Erik Brann) 13. RE: pressure points (Rick Clark) 14. RE: Broken Fingers (Rick Clark) 15. RE: Broken fingers and tkd forms (Rick Clark) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Sat, 6 May 2006 22:29:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Master Dan on Spirtuality To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Though I am a christian, I have to disagree with certain points. I don't believe God gave us martial arts. The bible sums it up in genesis 6:5. Basically it talks about how man is evil from birth and his every imagination is evil. So just like nowadays man makes nuclear weapons, man makes other weapons of war. truth be known if we want protection we should pray for it. We can pray for a hedge of protection around us. plus there is no martial art out there that can defeat satan...lol. our warfare is spiritual warfare, and our training is to study the word daily. That is how we prepare for the enemy. martial arts is for the physical realm there are benefits that can come from it, but it's not something we can say came from God though. Jye Master Chuck Martin wrote: Master Dan on Spirtuality and Sid- Master Dan I whole heartedly agree with your statements concerning martial arts, and spirtuality. I guess to keep it simple, martial arts does have a connection to religion for anyone that really knows or has expericnce in the true philosophies and meanings of martial arts. I have personally experienced martial arts well over 30 years and I can tell you that to those that live martial arts vs. those that just practice it, have no real true understanding about what you are speaking of. Yet in time as they grow and perservere they will come to understand the deeper understanding that martial arts was given to us for the purpose of growth, spiritually, physically and mentally. In order for this to happen one must have a connection to religion/God. In my perspective my connection is with God who sent us his Son, Jesus to die on the Cross of Calvary to save mankind from its sin. For Jesus to do this it required a true sacrifice to mankind. It required, in the true sence of the meaning, the greatest of all perserverance. My friends, martial arts is not just about figthting, or self defense. If you take martial arts for only the purpose of fighting, then you should not ever be promoted to black belt, because the spiritual worthiness is not there. This does not mean the person can not ever be worthy , it just means the person if already a blackbelt needs to grow before moving upward.. Now the conflict begins---- which religion is the correct one to study and revolve around martial arts. Not bashing, just loving every human being, I chose God because I firmly believe God is the only one and that he sent us martial arts from the very beginning because he knew we needed special training in some cases to be real leaders for Christ. I must be the salt of the earth, biblically speaking, and say that everything people do in their lives, good or bad either represents God or satan. Believe it or not God is the owner of everything, every person, every tree and cloud. Mankind was made for the purpose of worshiping God and hence he gave us martial arts to use as a wonderful tool to learn with. Christians I would suggest you get on board ship and join Christian martial arts organizations spirtually and financially because remember what you do either supports God or satan. So when you spend for martial arts where is your funds going? Are you for sure? Good job Master Dan for standing up and speaking the truth concerning spirtuality and martial arts. Sid, I'm sorry, but there really is more to learn concerning martial arts, regardless of whether you are a teacher or not. I wish everyone well, and God bless you all, but saying God has not part of martial arts is not a true statement. Sorry but obviously you have much to learn. _God bless and keep you all_. The World Christian Taekwondo Federation is open to those people who are willing to follow the Christian philosophy of life in martial arts. www.wctf.net Chuck Martin --------------------------------- Get amazing travel prices for air and hotel in one click on Yahoo! FareChase --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Sat, 6 May 2006 23:11:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Master Dan to Sid To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I wanted to make some points. The person closest to God was Adam, therefore He at one point had incredible knowledge as close to perfect as man could get. After adam and eve disobeyed, that's when that knowledge began to dwindle. So, looking at the big picture, we are at the other end of the spectrum our knowledge isn't as great as those ancients from biblical time. But for those of you who know about the end time prophecies from daniel and revelation, it speaks of things that will occur in the last days, one of which is an increase in knowledge. This is proven today...we are living in the "information age" new technologies have been created and are being created everyday...but here is the kicker...Notice the bible says there will be an increase in knowledge BUT it doesn't say "knowledge AND wisdom" so knowledge in itself isn't necessarily all good. although solomon fell short as we all will he is called the WISEST man. We all know that knowledge doesn't mean wisdom. It is written that solomon prayed for wisdom and it was given to him. The bible is full of knowledge but some people don't believe in it, some don't want to follow it because it's too hard or not easy to do, or because it conflicts with their personal doings. There is knowledge and wisdom about the human life ranging from health laws, to interpersonal dealings to personal relationship with God, etc. in the case of breathing...one should not confuse God's breath of life with our regular breath. We don't control the breath of life only God does, if this were true then we experienced chi kung experts could take a dead animal and breath into it using chi kung and reanimate the animal. Now we know this can't happen so that should be quite clear. Looking at chi kung it promotes smooth even breathing, which can always improve things in the body. We can not say martial arts movements originate at creation. Martial arts movements are a creation of man that is allowed because it is done within the parameters of the body that God created. If we're going to say that martial arts movements come from God then one could make the argument that so do perverted movements which we know is not true. Nowadays people are seeking chi energy, but I say I seek the holy spirit to dwell in me that is TRUE power. I do believe that perhaps God gave us certain powers if that's the good word for it. I do believe God gave us internal energy, I wish I could ask and find out more about it...if it even comes from God. Remember that when the fallen angels take possession of a person, that person has supernatural strength, so who knows if chi even is from God. I think if a person wants to learn about God then study the bible and if they'd like to do martial arts then do so, but as with all things pray for guidance in the art you choose. some arts may have a spirit behind them that is not of God. Also be sure to understand that just because something has christian title on it doesn't mean it is of God or goes with the Word of God or even pleases God. We have to remember that Satan mixes truth with error and it is written that Satan would deceive the whole world if it was possible. I like to think of it like this....he being the top angel in the presence of God was able to get 1/3rd of the angels to follow him instead of God. Now if he can do that to beings who have seen, and communicate to God personally, then we don't stand a chance against his trickery without the help of Christ. Also, think of this, followers of God believe the world is around 6 thousand years old or so and so just think satan has been studying mankind for as long as man has been in existance. so he is a terrible opponent without the help of Christ.So basically I'm saying pray always even about things even with the Christian label on it. Jye Jye Dan Scholten wrote: Getting back to spirituality in TKD and MA lets start with one beginning premise, there is no original thought or new ideas. All knowledge that ever was or ever will be was given at creation. We have not evolved in to higher beings but de evolved. Lets be scientific, the basic law of thermo dynamics says that any thing goes from a state of organization to degenerate to that of a lesser state. Hence you cannot take a Volkswagen, put it into the forest for ten years and it will become a Cadillac? Man was a smart as he was ever going to be and given everything related to healing and MA, after the fall is when things began to fall apart and the knowledge was lost or parts taken away because man was miss using this knowledge, even Solomon failed and fell short...> So getting back to breathing and MA movements lets go back to Genesis. When life was created God literally breathed life into the dirt, life began with the breath. Next, body movements originated with creation so in fact if you will go back that far and give credit to your creator then movements can become a form of prayer and your perspective will change on how you move and your rational for doing them. There is in nature an energy that everyone talks about using or building in them selves why not admit where it really comes from, a living breathing God that loves all of us and he has stated that if we will draw close to him he will draw close to us. I have taught this application to many black belts and master's and all have come away with a different and improved benefit to their work outs and general health and healing. Again this is for those Christians who are practicing MA, you don't need to feel guilty or uncomfortable about the Eastern philosophy that may come with your art you can have a Christian perspective that will give it even more meaning and purpose. In the Old Testament there were special men with special abilities called Judges that were raised up and set apart to defend their people and protect the weak. I feel that true Black Belts today are called of God even if they do not realize it yet to fight on behalf of their community and to serve by saving today's youth where ever possible. --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. PC-to-Phone calls for ridiculously low rates. --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Sat, 6 May 2006 23:18:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Wes Heaps To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: pressure points Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In response to question on why ppl don't demonstrate pp on the public, SAFETY !!!! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Sat, 6 May 2006 23:28:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Wes Heaps To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] another purpose of forms Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net when asked my instructor tells us that forms primarily teach us how to orientate ourselves within a group. so in a fight you would know where your opponents are at all times. secondly he says that they teach us effective ways to combine our various techniques. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Frank Clay" To: Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 07:52:12 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Martial Arts and Spirituality Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Martial arts do not make you anything except more adept at the arts of warfare. They do not enhance or inhibit your ability to commune with any God(s) that you may hold dear. That is something that is a choice that each (wo)man must make for themselves. What is fact, and the part that competent teachers should be aware of, is that rhythmic movements of the human body can lull the mind into a state where it is susceptible to suggestion. Therefore, we have a moral obligation to set the best example we can. I'm not sure that evangelicalism is the appropriate method here, and certainly not where youngsters are involved. Its not my job or position as a master to try and sway someone to a religious ethos. It is my job to give that individual the tools they need that may save either their lives or those of their loved ones. In my mind, this is no different that teaching someone how to use any other weapon of war. The big difference between teaching someone to be a martial artist versus a simple fighter, is that I am trying to teach them how to turn the baseness of what they do into something that they can find beauty in. That beauty is something that comes within. That being said, if someone does not find that path, it doesn't mean that my way is better, it means it was not right for them. In conclusion, Deshimaru made a comment that was applied to Zen and martial art, but really could be applied to any religion, so my paraphrase is going to be sanitized... Religion is training for death. Martial art is training for life. In my mind this says that both are necessary but they are two distinct things and should not be confused. In closing this thought, I would like to ask how we can rectify high dan fees with spirituality? There are some organizations that charge minimal amounts and those non-profits are of great value. I am a member of one. But, some of the most "spiritual" groups are also the most expensive. How do we as martial artists rectify the need for money with advancement? Does this mean if little Johnny cannot afford his rank, he doesn't advance? How does this concept help little Johnny spiritually? To use the Christian ethos, isn't this kind of akin to the tax collector in the Temple? I do agree with man being a prideful animal. One of the reasons I don't ask people to call me master is because I am only a man. Being a master technically means I'm a bit further on the path but I'm still just a student. Those grandmasters are those guides that guided my generation to master and eventually the shoe will be on the other foot. Its like a family relationship. Child is born (student) becomes a teenager (instructor) and then a parent (master). Finally the parent has children and the process repeats (grandmaster). f. --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 09:49:58 -0400 From: "Burdick, Dakin Robert" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Broken fingers and tkd forms Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Well, it looks like I stirred up at least one hornet's nest. There's a lot of very fixed beliefs involved in this conversation, so I'll just give one retort and then shut up about it, ok? On the efficacy of tkd moves: Yes, often tkd can work in a fight. I've heard enough stories about people kicking others in the head in a bar fight and getting away with it. Is it the best idea? No. On the efficacy of pressure points: The benefit of studying acupressure is supposedly to discern a method or pattern of strikes that will result in knocking out (or death touching, if you are into that sort of thing) an opponent. The problem is that I personally have not seen many effective strikes that would not be better explained by western medicine. If one uses acupressure to design strikes (without any other knowledge), one comes up with about three or more ineffective attacks to every effective one. That doesn't sound like a very good system for predicting success. On demonstrating pressure points: I've seen these demos since Dillman was doing them at IU in the 1980s (where Rick Clark got into them). Rick, remember when Dillman knocked out Larry Weber on GB20 in HPER163? Well, Larry showed all the signs of a minor concussion for the next couple of days. And I'm seeing enough slurred speech among the longtime Dillman followers that I'm convinced it ain't a good idea. Too many folks studying pressure points are over 40, which is when those little platelets start pulling loose and heading for the brain to give you a stroke. And the liability issue is an excellent reason to avoid demonstrating on strangers. What if the guy forgets to tell you about his heart palpitations or getting knocked out two nights ago in boxing practice? Woops! On finger locks: Yes they hurt. Yes they might stop an attacker (and I hope they do). But they are often not easy to get, they may not be effective, and therefore a good strike to a vital point is probably a better way to slow or stop an attacker. But hey, if you've got a finger, crank the hell out of it! On all of the discussions in general: Yes, the human body is a fragile device and can be harmed in many ways. One of my instructors said that most attackers don't have much skill, so even inefficient techniques usually work, which is probably true. I prefer to train to fight the folks that actually do have that skill. It just seems safer. Peace, Dakin Burdick dakinburdick@yahoo.com PS: Jye wrote: "you can take your same argument for TKD forms and apply it to sticky hands. how many times will you use actual sticky hands in a real fight?" Good point. I practice sticky hands because I love it, and when I get too old I'll do taijiquan for the same reason. But you also need to understand what I mean by sticky hands. I don't mean classical Wing Chun chi sao. What I mean is free sparring with no holds barred, light contact, no safety gear, with strikes, throws, wrestling, sweeps, and jointlocks (including finger, thumb and toe locks). And occasionally we do the same thing to practice weapons. So we actually do model a real fight pretty well. [demime 0.98e removed an attachment of type application/ms-tnef which had a name of winmail.dat] --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Don Ross" To: "dojang_digest" Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 11:57:30 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] breaking fingers and pressure points Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I agree with Master Kirsch's examples of 'combat-effective' pressure points, and would offer also, a hammer fist [or striking weapon of choice] to the crown of the head, a punch to the armpit, a knee, downward fist, or kick to the groin, and of course, strikes to the solar plesus. No, these aren't accupuncture-accurate ki strikes, but are effective in 'real' fights. Sorry I do not know the technical names for all these pressure points, I just know what works for me. Others have mentioned the 'mind-over-pain', fighting on after broken fingers, etc. As Rambo said, "I was taught that the mind is the greatest weapon." That said, however, consider that your attacker might be expecting a cowering victim rather than a skilled martial artist with the will to fight and live. So an aggressive counterattack disrupts his game plan. Similarly, he may think himself invincible, so even something like a broken finger suddenly cracks his façade . Just my 4 cents [adjusted for fuel surcharge LOL]. pil seung, Don Ross Beginning is easy. Continuing is hard. - Japanese proverb --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Donne Flanagan" To: Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 11:49:29 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Question to Mr Burdick re: hoshisul Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Burdick, Can you cite the source of the interview with GM Chung you mentioned? Also, I recently tried to find the update of your excellent article, "People and Events of T'aegwondo's Formative Years", which used to be at http://www.indiana.edu/~iutkd/history/tkdhist.html. It is no longer there. Is it still available somewhere? Thank you Well, if we are talking about the hoshinsul in the 1973 edition of Taekwon-Do >by Gen. Choi, then it is actually hapkido demonstrated by Ki-Tae Chung. >There's a long story behind that one, that GM Chung shared in a published >interview, but the upshot is that hoshinsul before that looked a lot like the >stuff from the JKA (Japanese Karate Association), particularly from the "Best >Karate" series. In 1973, tkd hoshinsul became hapkido. :) > >Keep on hapkidoing! > >Dakin >dakinburdick@yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 10:05:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Broken fingers and tkd forms To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net One thing caught my eye...the study of accupressure is not to fight with, it's to heal with. The same is true with accupuncture, it is to heal with. It is only the inverse of those which can be used to harm, it's believed that the inverse of those was captured in snake fist boxing systems, and chen style taichichuan, to name a few. Another thing, if you don't mean chi sao or another form of stick hands, what are you training that you consider sticky hands? free sparring full contact, NHB etc is not a form of sticky hands. Above all sticky hands besides teaching you to 'stick' to your opponent's limb it teaches you sensitivity. So I can't see how that is what you're doing by the description you gave of what you meant by sticky hands. Jye "Burdick, Dakin Robert" wrote: The benefit of studying acupressure is supposedly to discern a method or pattern of strikes that will result in knocking out (or death touching, if you are into that sort of thing) an opponent. The problem is that I personally have not seen many effective strikes that would not be better explained by western medicine. If one uses acupressure to design strikes (without any other knowledge), one comes up with about three or more ineffective attacks to every effective one. That doesn't sound like a very good system for predicting success. On demonstrating pressure points: I've seen these demos since Dillman was doing them at IU in the 1980s (where Rick Clark got into them). Rick, remember when Dillman knocked out Larry Weber on GB20 in HPER163? Well, Larry showed all the signs of a minor concussion for the next couple of days. And I'm seeing enough slurred speech among the longtime Dillman followers that I'm convinced it ain't a good idea. Too many folks studying pressure points are over 40, which is when those little platelets start pulling loose and heading for the brain to give you a stroke. And the liability issue is an excellent reason to avoid demonstrating on strangers. What if the guy forgets to tell you about his heart palpitations or getting knocked out two nights ago in boxing practice? Woops! On finger locks: Yes they hurt. Yes they might stop an attacker (and I hope they do). But they are often not easy to get, they may not be effective, and therefore a good strike to a vital point is probably a better way to slow or stop an attacker. But hey, if you've got a finger, crank the hell out of it! Good point. I practice sticky hands because I love it, and when I get too old I'll do taijiquan for the same reason. But you also need to understand what I mean by sticky hands. I don't mean classical Wing Chun chi sao. What I mean is free sparring with no holds barred, light contact, no safety gear, with strikes, throws, wrestling, sweeps, and jointlocks (including finger, thumb and toe locks). And occasionally we do the same thing to practice weapons. So we actually do model a real fight pretty well. --------------------------------- Blab-away for as little as 1˘/min. Make PC-to-Phone Calls using Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 12:17:56 -0500 From: "Ken Legendre" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Pressure points Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello All, Like I said, I do believe pressure points work. I have seen them work in a sparring match. The guy got kicked in the solar plexus and dropped like a rock. He had no strength at all once he regained his breath. Truth be told though, it was a lucky shot. He was not intending to strike a pressure point. So in over 16 years of martial arts I have seen a total of 1 person dropped or incapacated during a sparring match. I would say that those are not very good odds for using pressure points. Pressure points and joint locks do have their place though. I think they are very effective in "convincing" someone who thinks that they want to fight that they really don't want to. In a bar where somebody is trying to show off for his buddies, etc. Now when things get ugly during that same bar fight and someone pulls a knife, or a picture frame :) as the case may be then that person is going to need more than convincing that he doesn't want to fight. That person needs to be dropped. Now imagine 1 of 2 circumstances: 1) Your brand new white belt adult student gets attacked. What do you think is going to work? The side kick he learned last night or the pressure point attack? I'm betting the the side kick will. It may not look pretty, but the knee doesn't take much force to bend the opposite way. A pressure point attack has to be exact. 2) Now imagine you have been practice pressure points for 20 years. You get attacked by some druggie. He is high as a kite. Now my understanding of pressure points is that they are nerve endings. Nerves basically run on electrical impulses. What happens when that person is high and doesn't respond to those impulses. Now I hope you guys don't get all spiritual on me for my understanding of pressure points. I know that the orientals believe that there is Chi flowing through the body. My thoughts on that are that, well maybe there is, but that flow is severly interupted by drugs of abuse. Now all that said, I have never had to use my TKD for self defense in the 16+ years that I have been in it. Knock on wood. When I tell my students about pressure points I tell them that they do work because I have seen them in action. I also tell them that they are very hard to hit so make sure that if you don't hit a pressure point the the kick or punch will stop the attacker. So for all of you who practice pressure point techniques, keep working on them. They do work. Hopefully they will keep you from getting into a fight. I'm not being patronizing when I say that either. Me I'm going to keep doing what I've been doing. Thanks, Ken 4th Dan TKD --__--__-- Message: 11 From: David Weller Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 13:34:30 -0500 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Shoulder dislocation Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I dislocated a shoulder, I guess severely - the ball of the upper bone in my arm was pushed over under my clavicle - I wasn't in a fight so the adrenaline was not turned on full bore, But I can't imagine finishing a fight, or anything else, in that condition. It hurt like nothing else I've ever felt. 4 shots of morphine later the pain was the same. The only thing that made me quit screaming was RE- locating it. I hear what you're saying about being able to do amazing things when injured, but I gotta believe, given the pain I felt with that dislocation, that if someone gets a joint destroyed in a fight the chances are slim that they will want to continue. Or even if they "want" to keep going, I can't imagine things going well for them after that. All you'd have to do is keep picking on that injured joint, I can't imagine the will to fight to continue for long. I guarantee the person will not be hitting or grabbing you with the arm that is dislocated. Broken finger, broken toe, yeah, those can be ignored, joint out? I think not! (I will say the person you are talking about is a stud, and I admire their chutzpah, but really, what was the point besides wanting to look tough for your buds? A wrestling match is certainly not a life or death situation, and I have to question the judgement of the people who let him continue(his dad, his coach, the referee) with the injury you describe. I think they made a mistake, he could have had an even more serious injury had his opponent grabbed that arm and worked it, like would have happened "in the streets".) Just an opinion I formed after trying to be Tony Hawk.... dave weller On May 7, 2006, at 5:00 AM, Mike Tomlinson wrote: > same year during a wrestling tournament I witnessed a wrestler from > a nearby > school severly dislocate his shoulder with around 15 seconds left > to go in > the final match of our tournament...he was ahead by two > points...they took a > 30 second break while his dad told the coach he had his permission > to let > his son finish the match...his arm was hanging like a limp rag and > where the > shoulder socket is...there was nothing there but a big > depression....he held > on with one arm as he had top position...finished the match and > then climbed > into the ambulance as we gave him a standing ovation.... --__--__-- Message: 12 From: "Erik Brann" To: Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 14:39:53 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Forms - Pyong Ahn timings Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi, Erik Brann here again, got some research to do here. Again, we are working on the pyong ahn forms and I have been looking into the amount of time it should take to perform each Pyong Ahn form, both the elapsed time, and the general timing for each move. We do our forms two ways, in practice our instructor will call a count, which indicates each movement. We also do our forms with no count, the instructor will issue the command to start, then we perform the form in a flowing manner, one of the thing we have an issue with is synchronization. So the crux of my question is how long should thse forms take, at how many beats per second? I'm looking for some suggestions, that I can pass up to my instructors which we can share. Thanks in advance. --__--__-- Message: 13 Date: Sun, 07 May 2006 14:47:44 -0400 From: "Rick Clark" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] pressure points To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Michael, I know George Dillman and I have some very deep personal and professional differences of agreement with him, but I do know for a fact that he is good at the use of pressure points. His demo with the "no touch" stuff distracts from his ability with pressure points. Believe me I am not an apologist for Dillman but, I do know that in seminars he does not use just his students but will grab anyone at the seminar. I had my doubts about pressure points and that you could be knocked out with them. But I got over that misconception. Over the past 15 or more years I have come across a 5 or 6 people that I could just not get any pressure point I knew to work on them, and I have worked with thousands of people around the world. So for me I'll accept those odds - not every technique works 100% of the time on 100% of the people. Rick Clark www.ao-denkou-kai.org >I was a little unclear...what I meant was how you see guys like Dillman knock out his own students and I've seen older chinese artists >knock out and do tricks on their students a lot but not on others...what I was throwing out there..not very successfully I might add...is that there >is a lot of power of suggestion going on during these tricks...that's all.. > > > Michael Tomlinson >>From: "Rick Clark" >>I have no idea about what others do but when I teach a seminar I make >>sure to work with 99.9% of the people attending. >> >> >From: michael tomlinson [mailto:tomlinson_michael@hotmail.com] >> >Has anyone noticed before that almost always when someone >is giving a >>demonstration of a pressure point attack for the public or >> >whoever they are always demonstrating on one of their own >students??? >>Why do you think they do that?? >> > >> >Michael Tomlinson --__--__-- Message: 14 Date: Sun, 07 May 2006 15:00:05 -0400 From: "Rick Clark" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Broken Fingers To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Michael, Sound like some serious problems, I would never let someone test with a break or tear. As to not going to the ER till the next day, I would suggest that you might want to do that a bit sooner. Why would you or anyone take such risks with their body for a test? Why take any risk of causing more serious injury or possibly even permante injury? Rick Clark www.ao-denko-kai.org >From: michael tomlinson [mailto:tomlinson_michael@hotmail.com] ><> > > >I'm basing my opinions on nothing other than my own experiences....played >football for 10 years..never missed a game, only missed one >practice in seven years, broke six of my fingers over that time span..bad >breaks.... My 3rd dan Hapkido belt test with Master Whalen..broke two toes >and tore a tendon in my foot during the first half hour of the >test....finished the test three hours later..With a newly aqquired broken finger >compliments of Master Mike McCarty.....never took a break..went to the ER two >days later for xrays.... my fourth dan Hapkido belt test with Master Rick >Nabors...tore my bicep muscle loose from the tendon on the 6th technique I >did during that test..ie. about 20 minutes into the test..never took a >break...finished the test in two and a half more hours..went to the ER the next >morning..I am no one special and I'm not telling you this to say I'm a badass >or anything,, I'm not.....I'm just trying to let you know that a broken >finger is not gonna stop someone from trying to really hurt you..period.... >me and many others are talking about this stuff because it HAS happened to >us...not what someone told me... --__--__-- Message: 15 Date: Sun, 07 May 2006 15:21:19 -0400 From: "Rick Clark" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Broken fingers and tkd forms To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Dakin, >From: Burdick, Dakin Robert [mailto:burdickd@indiana.edu] >On the efficacy of pressure points: The benefit of studying acupressure is supposedly to discern a method or pattern of >strikes that will result in knocking out (or death touching, if you are into that sort of thing) an opponent. The problem >is that I personally have not seen many effective strikes that would not be better explained by western medicine. If one >uses acupressure to design strikes (without any other knowledge), one comes up with about three or more ineffective >attacks to every effective one. That doesn't sound like a very good system for predicting success. There are several schools of thought on pressure points. Over the years now I have moved away from using Chinese medicine (acupuncture) for prediction of techniques. There are so many "rules" in acupuncture such as 5 elements, yin/yang, mother/son, etc. that it is impossible to predict any effect. Western medicine can give you lots of explanations but I have yet to come up with a reason why you can strike some on the wrist, arm, or leg and knock them out. So I have moved to the JHH school of thought - "Just Hit Here". I don't care much how or why it works only that it does on the vast majority of people. I think in terms of 'normal distribution'. There are some out there that you can hit just about any place and drop them in their tracks, and others that no matter what you do they just stand there and look at you. But there is just that small group that is +3 who points just don't seem to effect. > >On demonstrating pressure points: I've seen these demos since Dillman was doing them at IU in the 1980s (where Rick Clark >got into them). Rick, remember when Dillman knocked out Larry Weber on GB20 in HPER163? Nope but I have seen enough KO's over the years. > Well, Larry showed all the signs of a minor concussion for the next couple of days. And I'm seeing enough slurred speech among the longtime Dillman >followers that I'm convinced it ain't a good idea. Which is one of the deep personal and profession differences of opinion I have with him. >Too many folks studying pressure points are over 40, which is when those little platelets start pulling loose and heading for the brain to give you >a stroke. And the liability issue is an excellent reason to avoid demonstrating on strangers. What if the guy forgets to tell you about his heart >palpitations or getting knocked out two nights ago in boxing practice? Woops! See my above comment. >On finger locks: Yes they hurt. Yes they might stop an attacker (and I hope they do). But they are often not easy to >get, they may not be effective, and therefore a good strike to a vital point is probably a better way to slow or stop an >attacker. But hey, if you've got a finger, crank the hell out of it! A finger break is simply one technique in the general bag of tricks we should have. Once again I will point out that with a finger break in a real situation I suggest that after the break you twist and crank the finger several times or more grinding the broken parts into each other. When their attention is diverted then you continue with other techniques of your choice - no matter if it's a kick to the head or a kick to a pressure point. > >On all of the discussions in general: Yes, the human body is a fragile device and can be harmed in many ways. One of my >instructors said that most attackers don't have much skill, so even inefficient techniques usually work, which is probably >true. I prefer to train to fight the folks that actually do have that skill. It just seems safer. > >Peace, > >Dakin Burdick >dakinburdick@yahoo.com Rick Clark www.ao-denkou-kai.org --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest