Date: Mon, 08 May 2006 19:47:38 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 13 #208 - 17 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,100 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Re: Pressure points (jakskru) 2. RE: Shoulder dislocation (michael tomlinson) 3. RE: Broken Fingers (michael tomlinson) 4. video clip: Tkd combat (Jye nigma) 5. RE: hidden meanings in forms (Woodard Brian (ChP/TEF8)) 6. Re: Master Dan on Spirtuality (?) 7. RE: Broken fingers and pressure points (Joseph Cheavens) 8. RE: Broken Fingers (Rick Clark) 9. RE: Broken fingers and pressure points (michael tomlinson) 10. Small Circle Jujitsu (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 11. Video clips: north korea (Jye nigma) 12. RE: Broken Fingers (michael tomlinson) 13. RE: Broken Fingers (Rick Clark) 14. Re: Broken Fingers (Ray) 15. RE: Broken Fingers (michael tomlinson) 16. Re: Broken Fingers (michael tomlinson) 17. RE: Broken Fingers (Rick Clark) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "jakskru" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Pressure points Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 19:25:08 -0400 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net pressure points seem to me to be most effective in close range, and are extremely effective in a grappling situation...if you dont believe me, next time you are on the mat grappling, and you find your opponent trying to apply a choke, attack some of the pressure points in his hand...especially the one between the knuckles of the middle and ring finger...believe me, unless he is made of stone he WILL let go. as for why demonstrating on your own students, simple---safety (they know the technique and will not normally react wildly) and to make you look good (a little embelishment) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ken Legendre" To: Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2006 1:17 PM Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Pressure points > Hello All, > > Like I said, I do believe pressure points work. I have seen them work > in a sparring match. The guy got kicked in the solar plexus and > dropped like a rock. He had no strength at all once he regained his > breath. Truth be told though, it was a lucky shot. He was not > intending to strike a pressure point. So in over 16 years of martial > arts I have seen a total of 1 person dropped or incapacated during a > sparring match. I would say that those are not very good odds for > using pressure points. > > Pressure points and joint locks do have their place though. I think > they are very effective in "convincing" someone who thinks that they > want to fight that they really don't want to. In a bar where somebody > is trying to show off for his buddies, etc. --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Shoulder dislocation Date: Mon, 08 May 2006 00:34:29 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dave, I agree with you...it wasn't one of our wrestlers..they were from a high school in Orlando...his dad gave the ok and he had top position and held on to keep the other wrestler from escaping..which still wouldn't of won the match even it he had for the other guy, but if he stopped he would have lost......a long 15 seconds for sure...if it was my son I don't think I would of gave the ok..but he did and we watched and then stood and cheered...defenitately a big show of courage... Michael Tomlinson >From: David Weller >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >Subject: [The_Dojang] Shoulder dislocation >Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 13:34:30 -0500 > >I dislocated a shoulder, I guess severely - the ball of the upper bone in >my arm was pushed over under my clavicle - I wasn't in a fight so the >adrenaline was not turned on full bore, But I can't imagine finishing a >fight, or anything else, in that condition. It hurt like nothing else >I've ever felt. 4 shots of morphine later the pain was the same. The only >thing that made me quit screaming was RE- locating it. I hear what you're >saying about being able to do amazing things when injured, but I gotta >believe, given the pain I felt with that dislocation, that if someone gets >a joint destroyed in a fight the chances are slim that they will want to >continue. Or even if they "want" to keep going, I can't imagine things >going well for them after that. All you'd have to do is keep picking on >that injured joint, I can't imagine the will to fight to continue for >long. I guarantee the person will not be hitting or grabbing you with the >arm that is dislocated. Broken finger, broken toe, yeah, those can be >ignored, joint out? I think not! >(I will say the person you are talking about is a stud, and I admire their >chutzpah, but really, what was the point besides wanting to look tough for >your buds? A wrestling match is certainly not a life or death situation, >and I have to question the judgement of the people who let him >continue(his dad, his coach, the referee) with the injury you describe. I >think they made a mistake, he could have had an even more serious injury >had his opponent grabbed that arm and worked it, like would have happened >"in the streets".) > >Just an opinion I formed after trying to be Tony Hawk.... > >dave weller > > > > >On May 7, 2006, at 5:00 AM, Mike Tomlinson wrote: > >>same year during a wrestling tournament I witnessed a wrestler from a >>nearby >>school severly dislocate his shoulder with around 15 seconds left to go >>in >>the final match of our tournament...he was ahead by two points...they >>took a >>30 second break while his dad told the coach he had his permission to let >>his son finish the match...his arm was hanging like a limp rag and where >>the >>shoulder socket is...there was nothing there but a big depression....he >>held >>on with one arm as he had top position...finished the match and then >>climbed >>into the ambulance as we gave him a standing ovation.... >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Broken Fingers Date: Mon, 08 May 2006 00:41:12 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Rick, I'm not for sure why I do what I do...it's just that I was taught not to stop or quit.. in all those instances I didn't make a mention of it during the test so Hal and Rick were not aware of how serious it was until later...that is part of the reason why my body sounds like a bag of rocks rattling around when I walk!!...I just always tell my mind to go somewhere else and figure that this is just another test within the test...and figure I'll deal with it later...so far so good... Michael Tomlinson >From: "Rick Clark" >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >To: >Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Broken Fingers >Date: Sun, 07 May 2006 15:00:05 -0400 > >Hi Michael, > >Sound like some serious problems, I would never let someone test with a >break or tear. As to not going to the ER till the next day, I would >suggest that you might want to do that a bit sooner. Why would you or >anyone take such risks with their body for a test? Why take any risk of >causing more serious injury or possibly even permante injury? > >Rick Clark >www.ao-denko-kai.org > > >From: michael tomlinson [mailto:tomlinson_michael@hotmail.com] > ><level of not working? Just your opinion?>> > > > > > >I'm basing my opinions on nothing other than my own >experiences....played > >football for 10 years..never missed a game, only missed one > >practice in seven years, broke six of my fingers over that time >span..bad > >breaks.... My 3rd dan Hapkido belt test with Master Whalen..broke two >toes > >and tore a tendon in my foot during the first half hour of the > >test....finished the test three hours later..With a newly aqquired >broken finger > >compliments of Master Mike McCarty.....never took a break..went to the >ER two > >days later for xrays.... my fourth dan Hapkido belt test with Master >Rick > >Nabors...tore my bicep muscle loose from the tendon on the 6th >technique I > >did during that test..ie. about 20 minutes into the test..never took a > >break...finished the test in two and a half more hours..went to the ER >the next > >morning..I am no one special and I'm not telling you this to say I'm a >badass > >or anything,, I'm not.....I'm just trying to let you know that a broken > > >finger is not gonna stop someone from trying to really hurt >you..period.... > >me and many others are talking about this stuff because it HAS happened >to > >us...not what someone told me... > >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 00:59:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma To: itf-taekwondo@yahoogroups.com, the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] video clip: Tkd combat Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net http://media.putfile.com/Taekwon-do-combat --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. PC-to-Phone calls for ridiculously low rates. --__--__-- Message: 5 Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] hidden meanings in forms Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 08:10:26 -0400 From: "Woodard Brian (ChP/TEF8)" To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I know that during forms my hand placement/motion is much different than when I am fighting. We do a lot of movements (crossing arms, fist to the waist, etc. etc.) for counter-motion. This gives us a nice balanced look as we perform the forms. When I am fighting my hands are going to be up and waiting for the closest attack to the torso/head to block. Any thing lower I can block with low kicks and or shins. It's not a lot of "fun" to block with the shins but they are very effective. I have never been taught a form that had shin blocks or blocks using the shin in them, but I instinctively use them without having to build them into muscle memory. Forms are an exercise for meditation, body conditioning, cardiovascular exercise, and balance. It also builds muscle memory for combinations. When I down block an attack I don't go directly into the next 5 moves of a form. But I might use a combination that is right after a down block in one of my forms, but only if it fits within the positioning of me and my opponent. I certainly don't spar in perfect back stance, front stance, or horse stance. Anyway just rambling this morning before the coffee kicks in. As Bruce says, "thoughts anyone? Best Regards, Brian D. Woodard -----Original Message----- From: TKDgalSamm@aol.com [mailto:TKDgalSamm@aol.com] Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 8:22 PM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] hidden meanings in forms In a message dated 5/5/2006 12:59:08 PM Central Standard Time, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes: IF we are building muscle memory then we should be doing so with techniques that we would really use in a self defense application. Not something that looks good in a form. I suggest that there are applications of movements in the various forms that can give you an alternative explanation and still not put you into a position where you have such a hole in your defense. Rick Clark "I am not young enough to know everything." - Oscar Wilde www.ao-denkou-kai.org Hense, why Japanese forms (at least the ones I have seen) are not "pretty" like TKD ...... LOL!!!! Sorry ... couldn't resist. Loretta _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Mon, 08 May 2006 07:56:09 -0500 From: ? To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Master Dan on Spirtuality Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Not wanting to start a religious argument here, but doesn't God give us everything we need? Man is not evil from birth, however, we are born with original sin, which is the sin Eve and then Adam committed when they ate from the tree in the middle of the garden. When God threw them out of the garden, he provided them with skins from animals for clothing and told them that they were to eat the animals and things that the earth provides to survive. He gave us the knowledge to invent tools to use to protect us, which includes martial arts. Perhaps you should read the bible in a different light and stop looking at the evil aspects of it and look more to what is good. Even nuclear power has some good. It is what Einstein wanted when he figured out the formula to harness its power. He did not want to use it for war, but for good such as electricity. No there is no martial art out there to defeat Satan, but we have the mind and conscience to do what is right which keeps us on God's path and that is a martial art in itself. Donna > > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 6 May 2006 22:29:03 -0700 (PDT) > From: Jye nigma > Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Master Dan on Spirtuality > To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > > Though I am a christian, I have to disagree with certain points. I don't believe God gave us martial arts. The bible sums it up in genesis 6:5. Basically it talks about how man is evil from birth and his every imagination is evil. So just like nowadays man makes nuclear weapons, man makes other weapons of war. truth be known if we want protection we should pray for it. We can pray for a hedge of protection around us. plus there is no martial art out there that can defeat satan...lol. our warfare is spiritual warfare, and our training is to study the word daily. That is how we prepare for the enemy. martial arts is for the physical realm there are benefits that can come from it, but it's not something we can say came from God though. > > Jye --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Joseph Cheavens" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Broken fingers and pressure points Date: Mon, 08 May 2006 09:12:54 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I see it all the time when I watch someone get knocked out from a solid punch or roundhouse kick to the jaw. The hinge of the jaw is pushed back into the pressure point just under the ear and the unlucky recipient drops like a sack of potatos. Same with a good heel kick to the temple. There is a reason that boxing and the the WTF does not allow strikes to the base of the skull, which is one of those pressure points illustrated in those moldy Chinese texts that some here are dissing. Also, if you are using grappling techniques to control your attacker, a lot of them make very good use of pressure points. Not all problems are solved with a kick or punch. Joe Cheavens -------------------------------------------------------------------- From:  "Ken Legendre" Reply-To:  the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To:  the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject:  [The_Dojang] Broken fingers and pressure points Date:  Fri, 5 May 2006 21:23:48 -0500 >I truely believe that pressure points are effective, but hitting a >pressure point is very difficult to do. > >Stop and think about the last time you watched a fight where martial >arts was involved. How many times did you see an opponent drop to >the >floor from getting hit at a pressure point? Winded from an attack, >maybe, but more often than not that is due to a breathing problem >(ie >breathing in while getting kicked.) > >Pressure points are just too difficult to hit on a moving target. >Yes >they can work, but when I attack a pressure point on a person that >is >my secondary objective. The primary objective is to hurt them with >the >attack. > >As far as play golf with one club goes... well that's why I have 2 >arms, 2 legs, 2 elbows, 2 knees, 10 fingers, 10 toes, a head and if >your not careful, I'll sit on you and break out the most dreaded >attack of all. > >Thanks, >Ken >4th Dan TKD >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Mon, 08 May 2006 10:41:58 -0400 From: "Rick Clark" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Broken Fingers To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Michael, >From: michael tomlinson [mailto:tomlinson_michael@hotmail.com] >Rick, >I'm not for sure why I do what I do...it's just that I was taught not to stop or quit.. in all those instances I didn't make a mention >of it during the test so Hal and Rick were not aware of how serious it was until ater...that is part of the reason why my body sounds like a >bag of rocks rattling around when I walk!!...I just always tell my mind to go somewhere else and figure that this is just another test within the >test...and figure I'll deal with it later...so far so good... > >Michael Tomlinson I understand what you are saying and I'll have to say I have done some crazy things in my past I would never do again, nor would I allow my students to do. That being said - I think the point I would like to make and I think others have done is that if you are in a testing situation and something gets broken or torn you should not tough through it just to prove you can. You can cause yourself serious injury, and worst of all you can give the impression that this is the thing to do and others may imitate your actions at a later date AND cause themselves or others a more serious injury. I'll be honest with you if I were on the board of instructors who was testing you I would have recommended that you re-test at a later date for two reasons: 1) you would perform at a higher level uninjured. 2) I would have questioned your judgment in continuing the test with such injury. I agree that in a life or death situation you can and should be able to do more than you would in normal situations and the body will kick into gear when it should. But in a test for rank is not an occasion where I think you should participate with injury to yourself, or allow others to participate. By the way I am now paying the price for previous training and the dumb things I did in my youth. I think its up to us to make sure that our students do not do the same dumb things and have the pain to pay at a later date. Rick Clark www.ao-denkou-kai.org --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Broken fingers and pressure points Date: Mon, 08 May 2006 14:54:40 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I dont' think anyone is doubting using temple strikes, solar plexus kicks, groin etc...we were doubting all the small fine motor points... also what you are referring to when it comes to the mandible I have heard explained by doctor's as jarring the brain inside of the skull and causing it to move in the fluid it is suspended in..when the brain touches the skull it becomes a knockout and actually causes a small bruise on the brain==concussion..hence the name.. solar plexus knockout results from the diaphram muscle being contracted quickly causing the air flow to stop...the diaphram is a large horizontal muscle that seperates your heart and lung cavity from your digestive cavity...when it contracts it causes the residual air to expell from the bottom of your lungs and that is what "getting the wind knocked out of you", means... Michael Tomlinson >From: "Joseph Cheavens" >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Broken fingers and pressure points >Date: Mon, 08 May 2006 09:12:54 -0500 > >I see it all the time when I watch someone get knocked out from a solid >punch or roundhouse kick to the jaw. The hinge of the jaw is pushed back >into the pressure point just under the ear and the unlucky recipient >drops like a sack of potatos. Same with a good heel kick to the temple. >There is a reason that boxing and the the WTF does not allow strikes to >the base of the skull, which is one of those pressure points illustrated >in those moldy Chinese texts that some here are dissing. Also, if you are >using grappling techniques to control your attacker, a lot of them make >very good use of pressure points. Not all problems are solved with a kick >or punch. > >Joe Cheavens > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > From:  "Ken Legendre" > Reply-To:  the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > To:  the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Subject:  [The_Dojang] Broken fingers and pressure points > Date:  Fri, 5 May 2006 21:23:48 -0500 > >I truely believe that pressure points are effective, but hitting a > >pressure point is very difficult to do. > > > >Stop and think about the last time you watched a fight where martial > >arts was involved. How many times did you see an opponent drop to > >the > >floor from getting hit at a pressure point? Winded from an attack, > >maybe, but more often than not that is due to a breathing problem > >(ie > >breathing in while getting kicked.) > > > >Pressure points are just too difficult to hit on a moving target. > >Yes > >they can work, but when I attack a pressure point on a person that > >is > >my secondary objective. The primary objective is to hurt them with > >the > >attack. > > > >As far as play golf with one club goes... well that's why I have 2 > >arms, 2 legs, 2 elbows, 2 knees, 10 fingers, 10 toes, a head and if > >your not careful, I'll sit on you and break out the most dreaded > >attack of all. > > > >Thanks, > >Ken > >4th Dan TKD > >_______________________________________________ > >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members > >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > >Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > >Standard disclaimers apply > >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: "the_dojang" Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 08:30:30 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] Small Circle Jujitsu Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net This was a good point about not breaking the finger. I have had Leon Jay run me around with a finger lock. The idea was to create pain compliance, and gain position. Once you ajust for the pain you will give up an arm, or your neck. I agree you can fight with a broken finger, or even a broen bone in your hand. But with a broken elbow or when a choke is applied you are done. JCGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 13:32:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net, itf-taekwondo@yahoogroups.com Subject: [The_Dojang] Video clips: north korea Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=go9sBL5nt1A http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEQepH8EIQQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xh6zgT4fdGI --------------------------------- New Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC and save big. --__--__-- Message: 12 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Broken Fingers Date: Mon, 08 May 2006 23:06:11 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Rick, I respect your point of view but I can't even imagine me stopping my testing and saying "hey I am hurt"....."let me stop now and try again at another time"... I just couldn't ever do that... Michael Tomlinson >From: "Rick Clark" >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >To: >Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Broken Fingers >Date: Mon, 08 May 2006 10:41:58 -0400 > >Michael, > > >From: michael tomlinson [mailto:tomlinson_michael@hotmail.com] > >Rick, > >I'm not for sure why I do what I do...it's just that I was taught not >to stop or quit.. in all those instances I didn't make a mention > >of it during the test so Hal and Rick were not aware of how serious it >was until ater...that is part of the reason why my body sounds like a > >bag of rocks rattling around when I walk!!...I just always tell my mind >to go somewhere else and figure that this is just another test within >the > >test...and figure I'll deal with it later...so far so good... > > > >Michael Tomlinson > >I understand what you are saying and I'll have to say I have done some >crazy things in my past I would never do again, nor would I allow my >students to do. That being said - I think the point I would like to >make and I think others have done is that if you are in a testing >situation and something gets broken or torn you should not tough through >it just to prove you can. You can cause yourself serious injury, and >worst of all you can give the impression that this is the thing to do >and others may imitate your actions at a later date AND cause themselves >or others a more serious injury. > >I'll be honest with you if I were on the board of instructors who was >testing you I would have recommended that you re-test at a later date >for two reasons: >1) you would perform at a higher level uninjured. >2) I would have questioned your judgment in continuing the test with >such injury. > >I agree that in a life or death situation you can and should be able to >do more than you would in normal situations and the body will kick into >gear when it should. But in a test for rank is not an occasion where I >think you should participate with injury to yourself, or allow others to >participate. > >By the way I am now paying the price for previous training and the dumb >things I did in my youth. I think its up to us to make sure that our >students do not do the same dumb things and have the pain to pay at a >later date. > >Rick Clark >www.ao-denkou-kai.org >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 13 Date: Mon, 08 May 2006 20:25:16 -0400 From: "Rick Clark" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Broken Fingers To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Michael, >From: michael tomlinson [mailto:tomlinson_michael@hotmail.com] >Rick, >I respect your point of view but I can't even imagine me stopping my testing and saying "hey I am hurt"....."let me stop now and try again >at another time"... I just couldn't ever do that... > > > Michael Tomlinson Fair enough - but I'll tell you from my point of view "IF" I am ever sitting on a testing board and someone says - "hey give me a minute I have just broken my (insert joint or bone) or tore a muscle. I would not let them continue to test, and I would rely on the judgment of the instructor of the person testing - are they ready or not. and go from there. Testing with a torn muscle or broken bone is not a smart thing to do, I would never condone it, and I would not let anyone do it in my presence. There is just to much risk to the individual for more severe damage and quite frankly its not that important. Even more than that on a list like this where there are folks from white belt to high ranking black belts I don't want to give the impression that someone should ever do something like this - and for the high ranks I would like to make the point that allowing this is not a good idea at least from one persons point of view who has been at it for a few years under their belt. Rick Clark www.ao-denkou-kai.org --__--__-- Message: 14 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Broken Fingers To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 18:17:03 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > I respect your point of view but I can't even imagine me stopping my testing > and saying "hey I am hurt"....."let me stop now and try again at another > time"... I just couldn't ever do that... Gotta agree with you there. One of the first black belt tests I witnessed at another school (Shotokan in this case) was to watch a friend test for his 1st Dan. During the test there was some sparring and he happened to catch a kick to the stomach. He rolled around the floor in pain. I was shocked. Not just go down due to a good blow, he rolled around the floor like a little boy. Showing pain like that should have been immediate test failure in my mind. If you get hurt, you suck it up and you complete the test. Yet he passed! I again was shocked. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 15 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Broken Fingers Date: Tue, 09 May 2006 02:03:22 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Rick, I hear you bro...to me it's all relative..if I can push myself harder and further than before then I feel good...even it it does mean hurting myself sometimes...but I am sure it isn't for everyone...when something happens I have this voice in my head that tells my body to obey me and then it tells my mind to focus on something other than the pain and I put myself on autopilot...Am I crazy or do other people on here do this???? Michael Tomlinson >From: "Rick Clark" >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >To: >Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Broken Fingers >Date: Mon, 08 May 2006 20:25:16 -0400 > >Hi Michael, > > >From: michael tomlinson [mailto:tomlinson_michael@hotmail.com] > > >Rick, > >I respect your point of view but I can't even imagine me stopping my >testing and saying "hey I am hurt"....."let me stop now and try again > >at another time"... I just couldn't ever do that... > > > > > > Michael Tomlinson > >Fair enough - but I'll tell you from my point of view "IF" I am ever >sitting on a testing board and someone says - "hey give me a minute I >have just broken my (insert joint or bone) or tore a muscle. I would >not let them continue to test, and I would rely on the judgment of the >instructor of the person testing - are they ready or not. and go from >there. Testing with a torn muscle or broken bone is not a smart thing >to do, I would never condone it, and I would not let anyone do it in my >presence. There is just to much risk to the individual for more severe >damage and quite frankly its not that important. > >Even more than that on a list like this where there are folks from white >belt to high ranking black belts I don't want to give the impression >that someone should ever do something like this - and for the high ranks >I would like to make the point that allowing this is not a good idea at >least from one persons point of view who has been at it for a few years >under their belt. > >Rick Clark >www.ao-denkou-kai.org >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 16 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Broken Fingers Date: Tue, 09 May 2006 02:07:23 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ray, That's how I feel about it..after Hal Whalen saw my foot at the end of the day he smiled and said hey we have all broke stuff on this big red mat...you ain't the first...sometimes you just have to keep going even when you don't want too...ain't that what life is all about??? I tell you though,,later that night the Guinness sure tasted good!!! Michael Tomlinson >From: Ray >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Broken Fingers >Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 18:17:03 -0700 (PDT) > > > I respect your point of view but I can't even imagine me stopping my >testing > > and saying "hey I am hurt"....."let me stop now and try again at another > > time"... I just couldn't ever do that... > >Gotta agree with you there. > >One of the first black belt tests I witnessed at another school (Shotokan >in this case) was to watch a friend test for his 1st Dan. During the test >there was some sparring and he happened to catch a kick to the stomach. > >He rolled around the floor in pain. I was shocked. Not just go down due >to a good blow, he rolled around the floor like a little boy. > >Showing pain like that should have been immediate test failure in my mind. >If you get hurt, you suck it up and you complete the test. > >Yet he passed! I again was shocked. > >Ray Terry >rterry@idiom.com >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 17 Date: Mon, 08 May 2006 22:27:51 -0400 From: "Rick Clark" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Broken Fingers To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ray, >From: Ray [mailto:rterry@idiom.com] >> I respect your point of view but I can't even imagine me stopping my testing and saying "hey I am hurt"....."let me stop now and try >again at another time"... I just couldn't ever do that... > >Gotta agree with you there. > >One of the first black belt tests I witnessed at another school (Shotokan in this case) was to watch a friend test for >his 1st Dan. During the test there was some sparring and he happened to catch a kick to the stomach. > >He rolled around the floor in pain. I was shocked. Not just go down due to a good blow, he rolled around the floor like a >little boy. > >Showing pain like that should have been immediate test failure in my mind. If you get hurt, you suck it up and you complete the test. > >Yet he passed! I again was shocked. > >Ray Terry I am shocked at your response - someone is hurt in the dochang / dojo and you think they should not pass the test because they reacted to pain? There was a serious lack of control on the part of the opponent to cause injury. If that student would have continued what kind of control do you think they would have? How well do you think they could defend themselves against an attack when they are double over in pain? OK - if you are on the street its different and I will concede that point. But this was in a class, a testing where the actions are being supervised and the instructors on the board have the responsibility for the health and well being of those that test in front of them. This attitude of continue the test no matter the pain is simply silly and quite frankly dangerous to the student and legally to the instructor. I am not an attorney but I suspect if a student was pressured in the slightest way to continue a test with a broken bone, a muscle pulled, or other serious injury and they felt compelled to continue the test and were permanently injured I am convinced you would end up in front of a jury. Accidents happen in class we get hurt probably in every class, but getting injured is different. We engage in an activity where we can expect to be injured at some point in time. In fact its not a matter of "if" but more a matter of "when" and "how bad". To engage in behavior that is likely to cause greater damage to an individual once an injury has occurred is just plain irresponsible and should not be condoned at any level. The safety and well being of our students must be our primary concern. Rick Clark www.ao-denkou-kai.org --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest