Date: Tue, 09 May 2006 12:50:29 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 13 #210 - 18 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,100 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: broken fingers -- going on though seriously injured is foolish... (Erik Kluzek) 2. RE: Voices (michael tomlinson) 3. RE: Not showing pain (michael tomlinson) 4. RE: Hidden meanings in forms, to brian wooderd (Woodard Brian (ChP/TEF8)) 5. Testing (Rudy Timmerman) 6. Quitting (Rudy Timmerman) 7. Re: Not showing pain (Ray) 8. Taekwondo teacher appeals sentence (The_Dojang) 9. RE: Not showing pain (Rick Clark) 10. Re: Not showing pain (Thomas Gordon) 11. Broken fingers and testing (Burdick, Dakin Robert) 12. RE: Quitting (michael tomlinson) 13. RE: Not showing pain (michael tomlinson) 14. The 2nd International Poomsae Refresher Course (The_Dojang) 15. Re: Voices (Jon Payne) 16. Re: Not showing pain / is Rick the only sane one out there?.... (Erik Kluzek) 17. RE: Re: Voices (michael tomlinson) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Erik Kluzek Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 00:34:43 -0600 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: broken fingers -- going on though seriously injured is foolish... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Accidents happen in class we get hurt probably in every class, but > getting injured is different. We engage in an activity where we can > expect to be injured at some point in time. In fact its not a > matter of > "if" but more a matter of "when" and "how bad". To engage in behavior > that is likely to cause greater damage to an individual once an injury > has occurred is just plain irresponsible and should not be condoned at > any level. The safety and well being of our students must be our > primary concern. > Rick, I have to agree with you here man. And Ray I can't believe what I'm hearing either. I try to make it clear to my students that we treat injuries like professional athletes. You don't want to do anything that going to cause a re- occurring injury, problems later in life, or limit your mobility or ability now. Continuing on when you have a serious injury is likely to cause one or more of those problems. And it irresponsible as an instructor to let people go on in that condition. As already stated -- when your life is on the line -- you continue on regardless. But, in class or a test -- your life isn't on the line. Professional athletes that are injured -- take care of their injuries. Why? Because, they will have a longer career and better results if injuries are appropriately taken care of. Now, there are the occasional exceptions -- it's the Olympics and you have the gymnast that performs with a sprained ankle. But, the reason these instances are so well known -- is because they are the exception. And sometimes when athletes disregard medical advice -- they pay dearly for it. A Football athlete was told to stop playing because of a concussion. He disregarded the advice -- and now resides 6 feet under. Now, building the will to go on -- that's a good thing to develop. But, develop that with endurance or aerobic training. Develop that with lots of sweat and continuing even when you are tired. But, in reality in the martial arts world the intention is that techniques when carried to full force -- will not matter how strong your will is. Break your knee and you go into shock -- I don't care how strong your strength of will is. Crush a testicle and you will be out. So in some ways -- building strength of will -- doesn't necessarily get you anything, but has potential for serious problems. I work hard at making sure my students know -- to let me know if they have an injury, and to evaluate if they can continue. Ray personally I can't read people's minds and don't know the amount of pain they are going through. I always let them make the choice of what to do -- unless it's obvious that they just need to quit. Now, sometimes I may think -- man they are just faking it. But, I'm not in their head -- what do I know? In some cases I find out later -- it really was something serious. The time I felt the worst about being an instructor I had a student that was injured doing a jumping kick. It didn't seem like a big deal, but she was really having a problem with it. I sat with her, and she could move her foot, so I thought it was probably just sprained. It turns out she did an X- ray and it was broken. That was like her second day in class and she didn't come back. A terrible way to lose students... A lighthearted way I let students know they should take injuries seriously is I let them know "this is a martial arts class -- it's not S&M -- that's down the hall.".... On that note -- catch you later.... Erik Kluzek Colorado Blue Wave Martial Arts http://www.coloradobluewave.org !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Voices Date: Tue, 09 May 2006 11:40:44 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net J.R. How do you know my dog?? Is he talking to you too!! I've warned him several times about running my phone bill up! LOL, that was a good laugh to start my morning off with.. Michael Tomlinson >From: "JR West" >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >To: >Subject: [The_Dojang] Voices >Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 21:56:46 -0500 > >"when something happens I have this voice in my head"...........Michael >Tomlinson > >That's just your dog telling you to kill the neighbors again....J. R. West >www.hapkido.com >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Not showing pain Date: Tue, 09 May 2006 12:12:04 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I hear what both of you are saying and I agree that there is a fine line between hard training and stupidity...I have to agree with Ray though...if you take some shots and visually you don't see anything coming out of the skin then IMHO it is time to forge ahead and maybe build your willpower....and at the very least you NEVER show your opponent where and when you got injured... there are always "what if's"...but the idea of not taking the dojang as serious as the street is a way IMHO to set your students up for failure on the street...you have to make the dojang a small microcosym of what the street might be.... If you take a shot on the street and someone is now gonna hurt your family you got to put it up...if you've trained a little harder and have been clocked a few times in the dojang and never stopped and bowed out then you are gonna have that little extra spice in your personality to keep going... my beliefs anyway... Michael Tomlinson --__--__-- Message: 4 Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Hidden meanings in forms, to brian wooderd Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 08:40:54 -0400 From: "Woodard Brian (ChP/TEF8)" To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Could be. Maybe that's why we spend a lifetime perfecting and analyzing the forms we practice. I'm always finding new things in them. IMVHO I think that's why at the dan level we are required much more time in rank. The forms at that level have many things in them, and at the same time you start to see more things in the lower rank forms that were "over your head" at that time in your journey. Best Regards, Brian D. Woodard -----Original Message----- From: Wes Heaps [mailto:wesheaps@yahoo.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2006 12:19 AM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Hidden meanings in forms, to brian wooderd If you havent been taught a form with a shin block in it, maybe you should switch to a martial art that has them. LOL sorry just picking. Maybe the forms you know have them, but you're instructor or you, don't relize they are there. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 5 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Rudy Timmerman Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 09:24:17 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Testing Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Rick writes: > But in a test for rank is not an occasion where I > think you should participate with injury to yourself, or allow > others to > participate. > > By the way I am now paying the price for previous training and the > dumb > things I did in my youth. I think its up to us to make sure that our > students do not do the same dumb things and have the pain to pay at a > later date. Hello Rick. I feel the same about that. At testing, I keep a VERY close eye out to make sure my students do no injure themselves (or others). I understand that we teach perseverance, so I could expect my students NOT to quit... so it is up to ME to stop them. I DO, and they have no choice in the matter. To be sure, I get the most out of them I can, and more than a few have thrown up from exhaustion, but injuries are not what I need to know they have what it takes. Rudy --__--__-- Message: 6 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Rudy Timmerman Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 09:30:00 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Quitting Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Michael writes: > I can't even imagine me stopping my testing > and saying "hey I am hurt"....."let me stop now and try again at > another > time"... I just couldn't ever do that... Hello Michael: Precisely the determination I would expect from a good student... it is what we teach. This is why it is so important for an Instructor viewing the test to be on top of the situation and make that call. It saves the face of the student when I leave them no choice. Rudy --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Not showing pain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 06:54:05 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > You are going to defend this when some 13 year old kid is kicked and > knocked to the ground in pain and his parents are sitting on the side > watching and you tell them to continue? Even in sports like football > when there is an injury the game is stopped and the injury is attended > to by someone with medical knowledge. Several points here. One, a 13 yr old student. I guess that takes us back to the teaching of children or not. I don't. Two, I never said anything about forcing a student to continue or telling them to continue. That is always their choice. You just hope they have learned some bit of mental toughness to continue on their own when they are hurt but not injured. > BUT - what if the spleen or liver were injured and they had internal > bleeding? "What if" it were a serious injury that the person received > an they were told to continue. See point above. And again, feeling a little pain and being injured are very different. > So you never tap out? That's stopping for pain or showing pain. Do your > students tap out? Would you fail a person that taps out in a sparing > match? Tapping out is cooperating with your training partner to show them that they are properly applying the technique. > I think for the first time since I have know you Ray we have a serious > difference of opinion. Nothing wrong with that, people will always disagree at some point on some subject. Let me try it this way. A student is testing and part of that test is a light sparring match. They catch a kick to the head and are dazed. What I would hope to see is the mental toughness for them to -want- to continue on. I as the instructor may decide that they should not continue on if it seems that they cannot intelligently defend themself. But I would hope to see in them the desire to continue and not roll around on the ground just because they took a little shot. After all, this is martial arts and part of that taking a shot every now and then and continuing on. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 06:56:47 -0700 From: The_Dojang To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Taekwondo teacher appeals sentence Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Taekwondo teacher appeals sentence, allowed out on bail Tue, May 9, 2006 By JANE SIMS, FREE PRESS JUSTICE REPORTER The London Free Press A nationally-recognized taekwondo instructor, caught with a young student after a court ordered him to leave her alone, was released from custody yesterday. Philippe Villanueva, 34, of St. Thomas was granted bail pending appeal of his 90-day sentence for breaching bail conditions. Superior Court Justice Johanne Morissette in London agreed to the new bail conditions yesterday after a brief hearing. Villanueva, who worked for Bluewater Taekwondo, was charged in March with possession of child pornography and sexual exploitation. A trial date for those charges is yet to be set. He was granted bail shortly after his arrest and ordered not to associate or communicate with several people, including a teenage girl whose identity is court-protected. But in May, he was arrested again after his car was pulled over on the way to St. Thomas. The girl he was ordered not to associate with was in the car, the court was told. Villanueva was charged with breach of bail conditions. On April 28, he pleaded guilty to that charge before Ontario Court Justice Kathleen McGowan. His lawyer, Aaron Prevost, argued at the time his client was volunteering his guilty plea and was taking responsibility for his actions. He'd landed a job at an auto parts plant and teaches taekwondo once a week. He has been suspended from the national association. Prevost had asked for a conditional discharge on the breach of bail. Assistant Crown attorney Peter Rollings had sought four months in jail. McGowan said a discharge was inappropriate. "I cannot think of a more serious breach," she said of Villanueva's actions. "It is a breach that attacks the very heart of the integrity of the bail process and it attacks the integrity of the whole judicial process," she said. --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Tue, 09 May 2006 10:10:47 -0400 From: "Rick Clark" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Not showing pain To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Michael, >From: michael tomlinson [mailto:tomlinson_michael@hotmail.com] >I hear what both of you are saying and I agree that there is a fine line between hard training and stupidity...I have to agree with Ray >though...if you take some shots and visually you don't see anything coming out of the skin then IMHO it is time to forge ahead and maybe >build your willpower....and at the very least you NEVER show your opponent where and when you got injured... Just because you don't see something "coming out of the skin" does not mean there are not internal injuries. When you have a person on the ground in pain you STOP and evaluate. My god in boxing at all levels when a person gets a body shot and they go to the ground there is a 10 count and if they stand up then the referee will evaluate if the match should go on, and a physician is there to make a decision as well! All its going to take is someone getting hurt permanently and you will find various legislatures putting new laws forward to regulate the martial arts even more than they are in some places. Why in gods name would you even consider that in a martial arts class some guy that gets kicked and is on the ground should be treated different than a professional boxer who without a doubt is going to be in much better physical condition than 99% of the martial artists in the world. I'll go back to my point about tapping out. Do you tap out? Do your students tap out? If you are knocked to the ground will you continue to kick or punch the person till they are unconscious? That's showing pain to your opponent. You have given up at that point and conceded that you have lost the match. Could a person continue after a bone is broken or they have a concussion - sure but that should never be the case in a class situation. > >there are always "what if's"...but the idea of not taking the dojang as serious as the street is a way IMHO to set your students up >for failure on the street...you have to make the dojang a small microcosym of what the street might be.... Sure take training serious - but for heavens sake you don't make the dochang / dojo as dangerous as the street. You train hard, you perform techniques with speed and power that both parties are capable of working with at SAFELY. I try to teach classes in a safe manner, and sure there have been times students have been injured and needed medical treatment. But those incidents are far and few between. I have had reports back from students that they have used what I have taught them and they have been able to defend themselves in situations that ran the scale of verbal abuse to deadly force. I have had students who are civilians, SWAT members, FBI, US Marshall, Homeland Defense, OSI, Air Force, Army, State and local police, correctional officers - never have I had someone come back to me and tell me that what I had taught them failed them when they needed it most. I have never has someone come to me and tell me "gosh Mr. Clark I wish you would have worked me harder and taught me to work through the pain because I wimped out when I needed it most". You can teach all of that but in a way that does not put students in greater danger. >If you take a shot on the street and someone is now gonna hurt your family you got to put it up...if you've trained a little harder and have been >clocked a few times in the dojang and never stopped and bowed out then you are gonna have that little extra spice in your personality to >keep going... Sure in practice you will learn to take some good shots, and work through the pain, that's a given. But when you start talking about continuing with broken bones, torn muscles, injuries that should require medical attention that's where you have to draw the line. If a person is on the floor in so much pain as not to be able to defend themselves you can not seriously believe that the other person should continue punching, kicking, choking, locking . . . . That's simply a disaster waiting to happen. > >my beliefs anyway... Well - it seems we have two different points of view. Not much can be gained with me trying to point out where I think you are wrong, and there is not any way you are going to change my mind. I am not going to be able to carry on this thread much longer - I am trying to get ready to head off to Ireland and the UK for seminars - so this will probably be it for me on the subject. > Michael Rick Clark www.ao-denkou-kai.org --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 09:18:50 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Not showing pain From: "Thomas Gordon" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net There's a difference in showing pain and being a total wimp about it. We've all seen where someone gets a strike a bit harder than a love tap and they lie on the ground doing the dying twitch. You know the student I'm talking about....the one where everyone rolls their eyes when they act like they just lost a limb over a light kick to the belly. Not talking about a fully extended thrusting front kick to the body knocking out their air out. Or the wrist lock that you're pretty sure you just heard something go *snap.* To that degree, I agree. We have light contact during testing and moderate contact during regular class. Thomas Gordon Florida --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 10:54:25 -0400 From: "Burdick, Dakin Robert" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Broken fingers and testing Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Rick Clark wrote in response to Ray's post: >I am shocked at your response - someone is hurt in the dochang / dojo and you think they should not pass the test because they reacted to pain? There was a serious lack of control on the part of the opponent to cause injury. I'm glad Rick brought this up. People who know me know that I can resist pain pretty well -- all in a day's work, right? But injury is something I don't like. It interferes with training and eventually may even end it. My wife has limited me to one major injury every ten years, so I can't have another for a while yet. When dealing with injuries on a test, I would stop the test (remember, it is not that important) and check on the student. If they can continue with limitations on their activity, they can. If not, they will test later. For me, the main thing is to treat each student with respect. A test is not combat to me. In a fight, sure, you keep on going and do what you need to do. But we train to become stronger and more capable -- continuing with a test and increasing your injury just makes you weaker in the long run. All of us oldsters have pals who aren't training any more because they have become physically incapable of it. A lot of guys have trashed their knees, their hips, their backs or their shoulders to the point where it is time for them to do something else. If they could still do it, we know they would still be here. So we also need to think about the long-term effects of what we do, so we can all keep doing the stuff we love a lot longer. >This attitude of continue the test no matter the pain is simply silly and quite frankly dangerous to the student and legally to the instructor. Rick is exactly correct here. Read that section again everyone. Yours in the arts, Dakin Burdick dakinburdick@yahoo.com PS: One black belt test I attended comes to mind. Person A held a board for Person B's axe kick at the end of their black belt tests. Person B broke Person A's hand. Person B and the rest of the people finished their tests and got their belts. Person A's family took him to the hospital. The instructor did not help Person A, or call the hospital, or stop the test. To me, that was unconscionable. I would have thought the instructor would stop the test (he had seen everyone train for months anyways, and they were at the end of the test), award the belts, and get Person A to the hospital. --__--__-- Message: 12 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Quitting Date: Tue, 09 May 2006 15:02:45 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Rudy, Thanks for the good word...and you make a good point..I have done the same thing coaching football several times...pulling one of my guys out of the game because of an injury he has and knowing he won't come out on his own...... Michael Tomlinson >From: Rudy Timmerman >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >Subject: [The_Dojang] Quitting >Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 09:30:00 -0400 > >Michael writes: >>I can't even imagine me stopping my testing >>and saying "hey I am hurt"....."let me stop now and try again at another >>time"... I just couldn't ever do that... > >Hello Michael: >Precisely the determination I would expect from a good student... it is >what we teach. This is why it is so important for an Instructor viewing >the test to be on top of the situation and make that call. It saves the >face of the student when I leave them no choice. >Rudy >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 13 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Not showing pain Date: Tue, 09 May 2006 15:11:45 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Rick I know where you are coming from on all of this...let me say that in all the years I have been teaching and coaching I haven't had anyone get seriously injured....but I have had people get knicked and dinged and gouged...part of the landscape IMHO...we'll just have to agree to disagree....have a safe trip... Michael Tomlinson --__--__-- Message: 14 Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 08:56:08 -0700 From: The_Dojang To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] The 2nd International Poomsae Refresher Course Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net International Referee Seminar and Refresher Course Ref. No.06 May 9, 2006 To: Presidents, Member National Associations Re: The 2nd International Poomsae Refresher Course The 6th International Poomsae Referee Seminar The 2nd International Poomsase Seminar for Coach This is to notify you that WTF has decided to hold the following Poomsae Seminar and Course in Seoul, Korea: 1. Dates and place June 24-27, 2006/ KoreaNationalSportUniversity, Seoul, Korea The 2nd International Poomsae Refresher Course The 6th International Poomsae Referee Seminar June 28-29, 2006/ KoreaNationalSportUniversity, Seoul, Korea The 2nd International Poomsase Seminar for Coach 2. Qualifications of participation: International Poomsae Referee Seminar - 25 years old or older - Holder of Kukkiwon 4th Dan or Higher - Recommendation by president of Member National Association - Holder of national referee certificate by the pertinent National Association International Poomsae Referee Refresher Course - Holder of International Poomsae Referee Certificate International Poomsae Seminar for Coach - Recommendation by president of Member National Association - Maximum number of application in each country: four or less 3. Attendence fee - International Poomsae Referee Refresher Course: Exemption - International Poomsae Referee Seminar: USD100 - International Poomsae Seminar for Coach: USD 300 * Attendance fee is only to be paid by bank remittance. Please send us the receipt of bank transfer with your application form by no later than June 10, 2006. (Please be advised that we will not accept any attendance fee on the day of registration.) The bank details is as follows: WTF 057-13-04125-6 Korea Exchange Bank Gangnam Station Branch in Seoul Swift code: KOEXKRSE (Charges for remittance are to be paid by the sender) 4. Application - Please be informed that we will not accept any applications without the signature of the pertinent president of your MNA. - Completed application form should be sent to WTF by e-mail or fax to the following: referee4wtf@unitel.co.kr / fax: 82 2 553 4728 (In case of sending via e-mail, please send the completed documents in .pdf format.) - Deadline for application: by no later than June 10, 2006 (We will not accept any application beyond this date, nor on the day of registration.) 5. Things to prepare - Writing materials, Taekwondo uniform and sports shoes Sincerely yours, Dong-Hoo MOON Secretary General --__--__-- Message: 15 From: "Jon Payne" To: "The_Dojang" Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 12:00:23 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Voices Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net when something happens I have this voice in my head"...........Michael Tomlinson >>That's just your dog telling you to kill the neighbors again....J. R. West >> >> www.hapkido.com You're just jealous because the voices choose to speak to me. Are the voices in my head too loud for you? Jon David Payne --__--__-- Message: 16 From: Erik Kluzek Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 11:29:22 -0600 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Not showing pain / is Rick the only sane one out there?.... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >> If that student would have continued what kind of >> control do you think they would have? How well do you think they >> could >> defend themselves against an attack when they are double over in >> pain? > > Ahhh... You hit upon the real point. Part of our training should > be to > not show pain. > > Been knocked down? Sure. Been hurt? Sure. Broken bones? Sure. > Been kicked in the nuts and couldn't function? Sure. Shown pain? > After the fact, yes. During the conflict, never. A real bad idea for > those that want to survive. Ok, so I understand and agree with this concept -- within reason. In my Aikido classes nage often has trouble getting me to tap. Sometimes I tap not out of pain compliance, but because they have me securely pinned. Every time I test I seem to make a ride to ER. Quite often when I go down to Master Kim's seminar -- I go to the ER. Dealing with pain given in a lock -- something you do want to train. Let it go until someone breaks the joint -- bad idea. Anytime, you have something go into the possible injury state -- you assess what's up. Continuing can mean you will have a permanent injury instead of a temporary one -- just seems like common sense to me (or is it not so common). Once, I was sparring with one of my seniors. Suddenly he stops turns around holds his hands together and stops the fight. I'm wondering what's going on. It turns out he had his hands open while I did a kick and the leg caused an "explosive dislocation" of his finger. While he was turned around he reset his own dislocated finger. But, then we immediately took him to the hospital. His attitude was it was his fault as he didn't hold a good fist, and he was higher rank. Because, the injury was taken care of immediately and appropriately -- he has full motion in his hand, full strength and no problems. Someone else I know has a finger joint that bends the wrong way -- because they did NOT take appropriate care of a dislocated finger from sparring. Personally, I dislocated my finger and after Grand-master Kim set it, went to ER and made sure it was OK. It's been over 6 months, and it's still not back to 100%, but I do have full range of motion. But, that was because I took appropriate care. The lesson I learned from that incident is that fingers are fragile and easy to hurt and take tons of time to heal. In class you want to take care of them... Do you really want to have people that lack full body range of motion, or dislocate joints easier, or have so much scar tissue that they can't do certain motions or lack strength -- all because they went on during an injury? Hell, going on during an injury in a dang class or test will make you more vulnerable against attack -- because your body is trashed. Part of a promise we make before every class is "we are united in mutual friendship". I want my class partners to continue coming to class, and I want them at 100%. I want them to take care of injury if they have it -- so they can come back at 100%. If they come back at 100% -- they can challenge me during class and I can challenge them. But, once something shifts into injury mode -- we stop and assess. If it's not a problem -- by all means continue. If not do the appropriate action. Even if all it is that you have blood on the floor -- then you have a biohazard -- you have to stop to clean it up. OSHA standards tell us that you treat anyones blood as a biohazard -- you discontinue until you have it cleaned up. And potentially it is -- there are plenty of blood-borne pathogens that can be lethal or at least negatively life-changing if you don't take care of them. Hepatitis -- bad news. Aids -- your dead. Is Rick the only one out there that teaches sensible injury management? If there's a possible injury you stop and assess, do the appropriate action, make sure you inform the instructor, continue if it's not a problem. I thought that was SOP for a martial arts class. I have this vision that there are all these do-jangs out there that have students that look like zombies with parts falling off and things that don't go the right way -- because you have people continuing training through an injury. Did you know that the real problem with Leprosy is the inability to feel pain? As such they trash their bodies and end up with parts falling off -- all because they continue with no feeling of pain. Is that the kind of do-jang you want to have filled with lepers and zombies? This is just insane.... Erik Kluzek Colorado Blue Wave Martial Arts http://www.coloradobluewave.org !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! --__--__-- Message: 17 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: Voices Date: Tue, 09 May 2006 18:11:02 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net LOL--- man I'm glad I'm not the ONLY one... Michael Tomlinson >From: "Jon Payne" >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >To: "The_Dojang" >Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Voices >Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 12:00:23 -0500 > >when something happens I have this voice in my head"...........Michael >Tomlinson > >>>That's just your dog telling you to kill the neighbors again....J. R. >>>West >> >www.hapkido.com > >You're just jealous because the voices choose to speak to me. Are the >voices in my head too loud for you? > >Jon David Payne _______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest